Another Brave Borderer Paint Colour Question

[JohnWS]

As you may know, I'm using the 1/72 scale Tamyia Perkasa model as the basis for a HMS Brave Borderer build.  The Tamyia Perkasa's hull is molded with grey sides & a red bottom below the waterline.   Most, if not all, WWII Royal Navy coastal craft had the hulls painted black below the waterline.  Later boats such as the Gay-class had a black bottom with a red line marking the waterline, & newer patrol boats appear have the bottom of their hulls painted red.  As I can only find black & white photos of Brave Borderer, the hull below the waterline looks to be black, but that's only my guess.

 

So, here's my question: What colour was the bottom of Brave Borderer's hull - red or black?

 

Any advice or thoughts will be appreciated.

 

John  

[longshanks]

Hi John

 

The only indicator I can find is this .........

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HMS-Brave-Borderer-Royal-Navy-Fast-Patrol-Boat-Vintage-Colour-Card-VGC-/383128844279

 

Looks black to me

 

Kev

[Courageous]

14 hours ago, longshanks said:

Looks black to me

...possibly. If you look the undersides of the torpedo warheads, they look black but we know they are red. So, the hull could be red but because of being in shadow, looks black. Jury still out to me.

 

Stuart

[JohnWS]

Here's a couple of links to colour photos of BB's sister boat Brave Swordsman;

 

Brave Swordsman 1

 

Brave Swordsman 2

 

These photos are very dark.  I lightened the photos & the hull bottom appears to have a red tinge relative to over black/grey surfaces.  I'm still not convinced, so will have to keep looking.

 

John

Edited September 9, 2019 by JohnWS

[Courageous]

4 hours ago, JohnWS said:

These photos are very dark.  I lightened the photos & the hull bottom appears to have a red tinge relative to over black/grey surfaces.  I'm still not convinced, so will have to keep looking.

I downloaded the preview and zoomed-in, I myself will be going for red. I must thank you for the links John as I fancy going the 'Swordsman' route.

 

Stuart

[Terry1954]

5 hours ago, JohnWS said:

I lightened the photos & the hull bottom appears to have a red tinge relative to over black/grey surfaces.

When I opened both links, my eye immediately saw a red tinge even though they look so dark. I'm more for red.

 

Terry

[robgizlu]

John - when it gets to this level of debate - we are going to back you either way.

I agree that it's a red tinge, by my reckoning.

I'm uncertain if wartime below hull paints were true "anti-fouling"?  Though I agree about the Black for that time period

Rob

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

8 minutes ago, robgizlu said:

I'm uncertain if wartime below hull paints were true "anti-fouling"?

 

They were certainly intended to be toxic to discourage marine growth - red oxide of iron. I thought I had something on the stuff. Will need to go looking for it in my not-so-great folder structure 😕

[longshanks]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_QT9ijh7j0

 

Black 

 

Kev

[JohnWS]

2 minutes ago, longshanks said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_QT9ijh7j0

 

Black 

 

Kev

It sure looks black in that video, Kev.

 

Thanks everyone for your suggestions & comments. 

 

I'm wondering if the Brave Swordsman photos might be colourized & not true colour photographs. 

 

I've bought two rattle cans, 1 black & 1 red lead, so I'm ready for whatever is the consensus colour. 

 

John

 

[longshanks]

 

One side black, one red 

 

If someone is not happy turn it round . . . . . .

 

Whilst they are bent over checking the RAL No 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Kev

[robgizlu]

40 minutes ago, longshanks said:

 

One side black, one red 

 

If someone is not happy turn it round . . . . . .

 

Whilst they are bent over checking the RAL No 

 

 

Kev

 

Kev - if I didn't know you better I'd think you weren't taking this seriously 

Rob

[longshanks]

Just trying to help 

 

 

Kev

[JohnWS]

5 hours ago, longshanks said:

If someone is not happy turn it round . . . . . .

 

Way too much physical work!  I'm going to stick with one colour.  

 

John

[Courageous]

As a matter of interest, what was the colour used on other contemporary warships? Wouldn't this be dictated by RN spec at the time, why would it be any different between cruiser, destroyer, MTB? 

 

Stuart

[JohnWS]

Thanks again everyone for your feedback.

 

I'm going to go with black below the hull's waterline.

 

Here's my last kick at the (black) cat.  Two photos, one B&W & one colour showing black below the waterline.  Note the difference in colour shades between the hull bottom & the torpedo warhead in the B&W photo.  As Stuart mentioned in an earlier post, the warheads are red.  Looking quite different than the colour below the waterline in the same photo.

 

 

John

[Courageous]

13 hours ago, JohnWS said:

I'm going to go with black below the hull's waterline.

I think you've convinced me it being black.

 

Stuart

[Terry1954]

Having originally said I'm erring towards red, I have studied quite a lot of pictures. Virtually every model I see made, is red below the waterline but everything else I see (admittedly all black and white pictures) I would interpret as black. What has finally convinced me to lean to black now is that all old colour artwork from that era, mostly cigarette cards, tea cards and one picture in an old copy of the Eagle comic, shows it black. Given those artworks were done at a time when the actual boats were about, why would they all choose black if they weren't!

 

The only real puzzle to me now is why has the red colour propagated so widely in the model world?

 

Terry

 

PS. After posting the above I found this modern photographers site, with some old pictures taken in Antwerp in 1990. Note these are Danish boats. To avoid copyright issues, go to the link and look at the eighth picture down.

 

http://ettheoriginal.blogspot.com/p/hdr-high-dynamic-range-photography.html

 

Clearly some red below the black, with potentially a white dividing line. Now this photographer has used HDR techniques but I do believe that the colour difference i.e. basically the red and the black, did exist before applying the HDR. I use this technique a lot myself and have noted that reds often come out just like in the picture.

 

So it looks like the Danish boats had black line over red, so maybe this implies that some confusion once ensued with these Danish boats and it has been interpreted as red on RN boats, in the past...............?

 

[Courageous]

Looks like you've got something there Terry.

 

Stuart

[JohnWS]

Further to my conclusion - Although similar, the Brave-class boats & Perkasa were two different designs for two different navies.  Perkasa was ordered by the Royal Malaysian Navy in 1964.  She was red below the waterline - see  MALAYSIAN NAVY FAST PATROL BOAT SPEED TRIALS - K.D. PERKASA.   Prior to Perkasa, the Brave-Class boats were built for the Royal Navy between 1958 & 1960 and were painted black below the waterline.

 

At the time the first Tamiya model kit came out, most of us (including myself) not knowing any better, assumed Perkasa (red bottom & all) was an RN boat since the box art & the kit included the RN white ensign flag.  We were wrong!   

 

John