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Japanese Pearl Harbour attack aircraft?


One 48

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...and then there is the way the paint faded or was subjected to the elements ddepending on the year of the war, time in service and IJA vs IJN paint jobs.  Can of worms...I agree.

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Thanks all, as regards the exactness colour of paint, who calibrates all that stuff in the first place? a war was on, who as a quality control inspector is going to go by each mass produced Aircraft that was urgently needed on the front line and halt that because the paint shade mix was slightly wrong?

It was get the aircraft out the door and to the airfields or carriers ASAP, exact batch of paint would be the last thing on minds.

I really don't care about exact shades of any paint, its about the modelling and building kits for me now, not getting bogged down in uber details like shades of paint.

Please.

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2 hours ago, Jordi said:

 

No, not at all.  That’s not how it worked.  Paint was supplied by a contractor, and just like the aircraft that rolled out the door had to conform to the exact specifications that the customer approved, so too the paint that left the paint manufacturer’s factory had to conform to the specifications laid out by the customer.  There seems to be this idea that the Japanese aircraft industry was some kind of slipshod mess during WWII (remember how the US thought the Zero was made of rice paper and bamboo as late as late 1942?).  Nothing could be further from the truth, especially early in the war.  The Japanese were (and are) very exacting and precise.  You may rest assured that if the paint that was supplied to Mitsubishi or Nakajima for the A6M2s they were producing in 1940-41 was not exactly to specification, it would have been rejected.  If that were not true, then you would not see the remarkable uniformity of finish on IJN fighters that photographs prove was the case.

Jordi, I'm not buying that at all, I'm with you, the Japanese were exacting and precise ... I'm sure you have done your research ETC, but in dire time of war and mass production, quality control shades of paint inspectors would be the last people to be employed and listened to on the factory line, the push was to get the Aircraft out there, not consider if their shades of paint were correct, it would have been a rough batch of paint formula for different factorys IMHO, if they halted the production line because of an exact colour mis match and stopped production, then that is borderline Mony Python lunacy IMHO

Bottom line, I started this thread with a sort of general accuracy theme ... I for one do not care for exact colours ... please can we get back on track and away from Precise and Exact colour shade debates, please?

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3 hours ago, Jordi said:

 If that were not true, then you would not see the remarkable uniformity of finish on IJN fighters that photographs prove was the case.

... and the high quality of application with almost no chipping in IJN service, at least until 1944.

The A6M and D3A were brand-new in 1940/41 and there was no rush to get them to a ‘front‘.

The only rush the Japanese had was to get the B5N camouflaged on the way to PH, and we haven‘t even opened this can of worms 😀

 

Would we accept a superficial paint job - just a green and a brown/grey - for a Spitfire or Tempest?

 

Your question, One 48, started a very interesting and helpful thread, that I for my part find very useful for my modelling needs. Thank you!

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1 hour ago, One 48 said:

Jordi, I'm not buying that at all, I'm with you, the Japanese were exacting and precise ... I'm sure you have done your research ETC, but in dire time of war and mass production, quality control shades of paint inspectors would be the last people to be employed and listened to on the factory line, the push was to get the Aircraft out there, not consider if their shades of paint were correct, it would have been a rough batch of paint formula for different factorys IMHO, if they halted the production line because of an exact colour mis match and stopped production, then that is borderline Mony Python lunacy IMHO

Bottom line, I started this thread with a sort of general accuracy theme ... I for one do not care for exact colours ... please can we get back on track and away from Precise and Exact colour shade debates, please?

 

I'm sorry you don't want to hear this, but factories don't run down to the last drops before reordering and paint is fairly easy to adjust if rejected, which would happen before it left its own factory.

 

If the test swatch from the batch wasn't a fairly good (by someone who takes pride in their job matching paint) match for the matching card then it will be tweaked by adding some more pigment to adjust the shade.

 

It is known that the USA did not control ANA613 Olive Drab, and it is known that when Germany and Japan were in the final year of losing the war the paint quality went out the window too. In 1941 though that simply isn't true. The Japanese very much took pride in their work - they still do. It's a cultural thing.

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Sorry Jamie and I appreciate your input, (I'm from Aberdeenshire too) I really do, but I really do not care for paint shade arguments, its stupid debates like this that can drag a good topic down, we had a perfectly good discussion going on for a bit, can I as the topic starter respectfully ask all other Japanese paint colour shade experts take it to a more appropriate thread .... I as Topic starter never wanted it to go this deep, feel almost embarrassed for starting it now :(

I'm going to paint my Japanese 1/48 Pearl Harbor/Harbour aircraft models with recommended paints as pointed out in my kit instructions, if its a few shades out I'll not care, but I'll get them built and enjoy building them without worrying about the shades of paint used.

If its wrong shade of greys or green I use, I'll not care or worry one iota.

Thanks all though for great input, do appreciate it 👍

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There are alot of airframe skin samples from actual Pearl Harbor planes linked in this thread already.

 

But I made my own Japanese Ash-Grey ("Hairyokushoku" Zero "grey") and Green-Grey ("Ame-Iro" Val & Kate "grey") by tinting Humbrol 90 (SkytypeS) with black/white/green/blue and testing on old wings (took 4 trials to get right to my eyes!)    Quite fun mixing own paint and I learnt alot!

 

P.S. The Nichimo B5N2 Kate comes with a selection of bomb sizes and a Torpedo so you can make all weapon loads (unlike the Hasegawa which only comes with bomb or torpedo in each kit!).

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1 minute ago, Jordi said:

 

I do not accept your basic premise One 48.  When the Pearl Harbor aircraft were being produced in 1940 and 1941, the Japanese military was only engaged in war in China.  Their situation was FAR from "dire" - the were only engaged in a war against a massively inferior enemy, and there was virtually no air combat taking place.  The Japanese were on top of the world, and there was no frenzied rush to do much of anything.  You need to understand the context of the history you're talking about, and you need to present evidence if you're going to make blanket statements.  There is a huge amount of documentary and physical evidence on this stuff, and virtually every piece of it goes against what you are saying.

 

Of course you are perfectly free to ignore evidence and paint your model any shade you choose, but that does not change the fact that the evidence exists and is widely accepted by experts in this area.

OK then.

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Hi,

 

before everyone gets all misty-eyed about how accurate the old Tamiya 48 scale A6M2 is, take a good look at the area directly in front of the windscreen. The slope there is way too steep. Sure it matches some old drawings but they are wrong. Hasegawa's kit is much better there.

 

The assertion that the fuselage on the Hasegawa kit is supposedly too short is a new one on me. I will have to measure the kit and see what I find.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Jordi said:

 

Once again, I do not accept your premise.  As I said in my previous post, you are free to paint your model any way you choose (pink with purple polka dots would look very fetching), but lots of modelers are here to discuss this very type of subject, and it is not "stupid" except to people who refuse to accept evidence.  If you think it is stupid, then please don't read it.

 

I'm not arguing with you mate, I said OK, then you prompted me again, its most likely you that wants an argument or debate about Japanese paint shades and habits of use, good luck with that ... you wont find it with me though.

Thanks for your earlier contribution to this thread though, do appreciate that, thanks again.

In an effort to get back on track, should mention I'm not a complete accuracy freak, might even leave out seat belts on my builds in this project ... shock horror I know :), They will be OOB builds mostly, so the last thing on my mind for this particular request topic is an extended debate on the accuracy of Japanese paint shades during WW2 ... It is an interesting historical sideline I suppose, but perhaps worthy of its own topic somewhere else?

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19 hours ago, Beazer said:

...and then there is the way the paint faded or was subjected to the elements ddepending on the year of the war, time in service and IJA vs IJN paint jobs.  Can of worms...I agree.

Which is precisely why I modeled a Pearl Harbor A6M2 aircraft. These planes were only a few months to a year old at the most, all Mitsubishi-built, had done all of their service to date in Northern Pacific waters with less aggressive climactic conditions than in the South, etc. Less variance to begin with... 

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@One 48 I already noted that you don't care. I don't mind that you don't care. Really!

 

What I wish to point out however is that this thread is not your property and may last 10 years or more on this forum. Other modellers building Zekes will find it using the forum search in future and read it. The fact that you personally don't care about colour does not mean that your statements about wartime vaguaries can be left unchecked to misdirect other people looking for information in future.

 

As the thread stands, you say you're embarrassed. I say that a future reader will conclude that there is good information about Japanese paint out there but you personally aren't bothered about it. Nobody will think poorly of you for that. We can't be having people reading that Japanese paints in 1941 were a chaotic hotch-potch without responses because on forums unchallenged statements become facts after a while.

 

Best regards,

 

Jamie

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Jamie, understood and agreed for the most part, however, you parachuting into the thread, soverieghnhobbys or not, is not really helping. I know this thread is not my property, so please do not suggest I even think that, you don't know me and I would never assume such thoughts about you ... please, there was no need for this outburst of yours, its really not helping in any way, it was pretty much over ... I'd conceded, but you had to barge in with your late 2 cents too.

Now let me expand on that, because I can feel my blood pressure rising because of the way you responded, and thats what I need to avoid, scale modelling should be a peaceful pursuit .. I'm trying to stay calm here, really am.

If we cant start a thread with good intent without it being hijacked by rivet counters and paint shade experts, then its perhaps best not to start such threads again in the first place, but honestly, this good intentioned thread here for basic info from a basic modeller such as me has left me deeply disappointed and wishing I'd never mentioned the topic in the first place :(

I'm fairly new here, perhaps a bit naive too, but the thread was going fine, great advice coming in, left right and canter, then the shade of paint experts weighed in, started arguing with them selves ... and this is what we have ... I know I don't own the thread Jamie, and honestly I think the fact you consider I do a deeply offending insult to my intelligence, but none the less, thread was hijacked about paint shade expert stuff ... I'm new here, and as far as I can see there is a dedicated forum for paint talk, types and shade here, you can spin it any way you want, but the topic was good and constructive in the beginning, the paint shade experts came in, started arguing with them selves and it really detracted from the thread beginning motive and intent.

Can we move on now please, this is getting silly. Please no more condescending remarks as well (been guilty of that too I suppose, sorry folks), it  really does not help.

Lets move on please.

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On 9/9/2019 at 2:23 AM, One 48 said:

Please no more condescending remarks as well (been guilty of that too I suppose, sorry folks)

Bingo.  I think it is ironic that I came back into this thread (I'd looked in when you first asked but it really isn't (currently!) my thing) after seeing your Oscar comparison thread, which is very much my kind of thing.  I'm looking forward to reading it, even if I don't care that terribly much about Oscars as a type.

 

I was trying to offer some "helpful" advice, but gave up because no matter how I considered saying something, I doubted whether it would be interpreted the way I meant it.  No doubt I'd have been better off not posting this, either.  Once again I'm brought to Bill and Ted's mantra: "Be excellent to each other!"

 

p.s. Where are my manners?  Welcome to Britmodeller!

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On 9/8/2019 at 2:32 PM, Jordi said:

 

I do not accept your basic premise One 48.  When the Pearl Harbor aircraft were being produced in 1940 and 1941, the Japanese military was only engaged in war in China.  Their situation was FAR from "dire" - the were only engaged in a war against a massively inferior enemy, and there was virtually no air combat taking place.  The Japanese were on top of the world, and there was no frenzied rush to do much of anything.  You need to understand the context of the history you're talking about, and you need to present evidence if you're going to make blanket statements.  There is a huge amount of documentary and physical evidence on this stuff, and virtually every piece of it goes against what you are saying.

 

Of course you are perfectly free to ignore evidence and paint your model any shade you choose, but that does not change the fact that the evidence exists and is widely accepted by experts in this area.

He doesn't care.

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On 9/8/2019 at 4:06 PM, Jordi said:

I am not trying to start an argument, I am simply stating what is fact and what is not.  You are making assertions not backed up by evidence, on which you are basing assumptions about things related to modeling, and then calling the discussion of them "stupid".  That sounds pretty argumentative to me.

 

*******

 

I know the Tamiya A6M2 is not perfect, but neither is the Hasegawa kit.  Why Tamiya has not continued its more recent line of 1/48 Zero kits with the early ones (Model 21, 22, 23) defies belief.  Their A6M5 is a beautiful kit.

On 9/8/2019 at 2:35 PM, Jordi said:

 

Once again, I do not accept your premise.  As I said in my previous post, you are free to paint your model any way you choose (pink with purple polka dots would look very fetching), but lots of modelers are here to discuss this very type of subject, and it is not "stupid" except to people who refuse to accept evidence.  If you think it is stupid, then please don't read it.

Still doesn't care & it's his thread.

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LOL, you guys are great :)

Personally ... I DO care for this thread very much, it probably went a little south, but was rescued, and glad it still stays buoyant :) Its definitely not my thread.

Its an absolutely fascinating era of military WW2 aviation for sure, have bought most of the books that were suggested in this thread as well as several 1/48 Japanese aircraft kits too, construction commences soon.

Myself personally, am not a complete scale model accuracy person, very near enough is good for me, paint shades is out there for me, so obviously way out of my
league, but if you guys want to keep discussing such detail here, please feel free to do so, just won't be able to keep up with you :)

This is a good thread, a good topic, hopefully it can continue for modellers of all skill sets.

Watched Tora Tora Tora a couple of times after creating this thread, also am a bit of a flight sim fan, the original iL2 1946 includes this raid, its very basic ... but a recent mod has everything from time of attack, take off from carrier to landing to ship placement done very accurately, its pretty much historically accurate in that the other aircraft hit the ships as happened and the aircraft get shot down too, it must have been painstaking hard work to do this in the sims mission builder ... an old simulation, its fun, and accurate to fly for enthusiasts of the Pearl Harbour raid.

Finally, have a friend in Hawaii who knows of my zest for this subject, have open invitation to visit some day, one of these days I'll do it and visit Pearl for real.

Cheers Guys.

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One final thought on thread afore I bow out and leave it to the experts ... one of the fall outs was paint shade for heaven’s sake?, one guy here was saying the Japanese were meticulous on paint quality shade even during the crisis of war ... I'm not buying that for one bit and here is my evidence, we have all seen model subjects of Japanese WW2 Aircraft where paint has worn thin overall, it happens in that climate, did to for American WW2 carrier aircraft, but NOT as much, all evidence points to late WW2 Japanese paint being rushed out the factory to meet schedules.

We all know paint pigments fade over time ... of course it does, but you can't argue with the pictures as seen in this topic, this is not good quality paint ... and yes we know why it degrades in that area of conflict, but please, the guy that told me that the Japanese were so proud of their paint shades needs to go look at some history books.

https://forum.largescaleplanes.com/index.php?/topic/52770-why-do-japanese-paint-chip-so-much/



 

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On 08/09/2019 at 03:26, Jordi said:

The Japanese were (and are) very exacting and precise.  You may rest assured that if the paint that was supplied to Mitsubishi or Nakajima for the A6M2s they were producing in 1940-41 was not exactly to specification, it would have been rejected. 


So why were pretty much all pictures of Japanese WW2 Aircraft show such quickly deteriorating states of paint finish quality?

You cant blame just the climate because the allies fought there too for a long time, from airfields and carriers, even carrier borne US Aircraft of same era paint never wore or faded that quickly.

Jordi ... I respect your opinion, respect your research and knowledge, but how do you know paint shades that were not correct were rejected? Would love to see your factual source on that.

The whole shade of paint debacle amongst Scale Modellers is open for debate and is quite frankly ridiculous IMHO ... paint fades over time, some more than others, nobody is going to come up with an exact shade of paint shade used during WW1, WW2 or even WW3 if God forbids it happens, its open to interpretation and artistic licence ... and quite honestly, who really cares about paint shades :(  Close enoufg is good enough.

Get the kits built guys, stop fretting and worrying about such stuff, our human eyeballs all see different shades, our cameras do too ... it's a complete moot point IMHO.

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My 2 cents. After the loss of their carriers, the Japanese were forced to use land bases for their aircraft. To camouflage them, they were quickly field painted. That is the paint fade faded/fell off so badly. Japanese Army aircraft were still being delivered unpainted ant they too were painted in the field. That is why the camo flaked so badly during the 1943/44 era.

 

 

Chris

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13 minutes ago, One 48 said:

nobody is going to come up with an exact shade of paint shade used during WW1, WW2

Not true.

There are paint formulas,  and so paint can be recreated, certainly to the level of an existing period standard, bearing in mind we can now calibrate very fine differences due to technology. 

In fact @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies has been doing work like this on WW2 Royal Navy colours, using the formulas for the paint to recreate shades.

Same with Luftwaffe researchers.   

Knowing the actual paint chemical make up will also indicate how paint can weather and fade, or even darken,  depending on the pigments and binders used.

 

16 minutes ago, One 48 said:

So why were pretty much all pictures of Japanese WW2 Aircraft show such quickly deteriorating states of paint finish quality?

 

They don't.

 

Many commonly circulated photos are from Allied sources,  of captured planes, late in the war or post war.  Some are hulks, some have been sitting around for a while, and, LATER in the war,  manufacturing and painting had suffered a fall in quality.

@Jordi specifically said 1940-41.

OK, a couple of famous images, or aircraft dumps, post war

 

4875328130_66d0e6bd99_o.jpg1945 Imperial Japanese navy airfield - 02 by a-waka, on Flickr

 

sure, the Zero at the front is tatty, but the others? 

or this

 

4874740560_ba0a8f52b0_o.jpg1945 Imperial Japanese navy airfield - 01a by a-waka, on Flickr

 

The Raiden is tatty, the zero is nearly pristine, the others are not notably chipped, and there are

1945 Imperial Japanese navy airfield - 01a

Aichi - SUISEI (彗星)

Mitsubishi - RAIDEN (雷電)

Mitsubishi - TYPE ZERO (零式艦上戦闘機)

Nakajima - GEKKO (月光)

Nakajima - J1N1-R (二式陸上偵察機)

Yokosuka - GINGA (銀河

in the photo.

 

this is said to be 1944

4885280277_e7b924abaa_o.jpgHollandia Papua New Guinea 1944 - 03 by a-waka, on Flickr

despite being faded and badly weathered, the paint is not flaking off, especially on the planes on the right of the pic.

 

this is the sort of image that you might have in mind...

4874121450_6954c50a15_o.jpgNakajima Ki-84 HAYATE, Ki-43 HAYABUSA. Tachikawa Ki-54, Ki-55 by a-waka, on Flickr

 

sure the Ki-84 is tatty, but look at the Ki-43 to the upper right, and behind that, the Ki-54 (the link has identifiers)

 

So,  

Quote

So why were pretty much all pictures of Japanese WW2 Aircraft show such quickly deteriorating states of paint finish quality?

is not really true, even for aircraft post war,  note the older types are not looking tatty.  Newer types are more likely to show poor finish. 

 

If you are actually interested in Japanese types, I suggest reading the Aviation Of Japan blog

http://www.aviationofjapan.com

the owner, Nick Millman, is one of the English language authorities on Japanese colours, and is a careful researcher. 

The owner used to post here, but I think got sick of "but I think" answers...

Quote

Blindly believing something to be true does not make it so and is not the basis upon which to begin any investigation. The known facts have to be marshalled, the evidence (all of it) examined objectively and then the conclusion is drawn, together with any caveats. All too often modelling community researchers begin with their preferred conclusion, then marshall the facts subjectively to present the evidence in a way that supports the pre-determined conclusion.

from

http://www.aviationofjapan.com/2010/11/paint-colour-research-and-zero-some.html

 

Well worth a read for how the subject of that Zero grey has evolved.  

 

You don't have to get involved with these discussion, or even take them on board,  but if you do post poorly informed opinions on a public forum,  then others are liable to add detail or correct this misinformation.

the late "Luftwaffe experten message board" had a great motto, "I learn, you learn, we all learn" 

44 minutes ago, One 48 said:

our human eyeballs all see different shades, our cameras do too ... it's a complete moot point IMHO.

the crux here is IMHO

And, again,

there is an online test to check the acuity of your own colour vision

https://www.xrite.com/hue-test 

cameras can be calibrated. 

There are colour measuring system which can describe colour very precisely.   Computer monitors can be calibrated with colour software.

Paint manufacturers can match and make paint to very exact tolerances.

 

also worth a read

http://www.aviationofjapan.com/2009/09/colours-and-paints.html

Quote

Those who do seek precision in assessing and communicating colour, whether as researchers or end users, frequently come under fire from the "anything goes" brigade, attracting such pejoratives as "rivet counters" or "colour police". I have noticed this more and more in online and magazine articles, where the author's ignorance is often thinly disguised by an attack on knowledge, a reference to the ubiquitous "internet research" followed by an implication of reaching a definitive conclusion which is nothing of the sort or an attack on those who are more fussy about the colours they use. No matter how many times it is stressed that decisions about paint colours are individual and personal there is nothing more misleading than those modellers who, having made an individual and personal decision about colour, attempt to pass it off as some kind of definitive conclusion in a published article. The honesty of "I don't know but I chose this" would be a refreshing change. Somehow they think that because they are building the latest large scale Tamegawa flavour of the month for a mainstream magazine feature it puts an onus on them to make a definitive pronouncement about the colours. In some cases they don't even bother to cite what the instructions have to say about it. Dare we criticise? Not hardly, because the article invariably fires a few warning shots about said "rivet counters" and "colour police" intended to deter anyone from pointing out the wrong colour of the Emperor's new aircraft.

 

and 

http://www.aviationofjapan.com/2012/04/some-scale-colour-thoughts.html

 

Note,  on the first page of this thread, I said that Tamiya did a colour, XF-76 for their 32nd Zero kit, which was a good match for a slightly faded aircraft, along with a link discussing how this was arrived at. 

That was a neat and simple answer to "what colour should I paint my Zero"  

 

In one of your other posts you said you were 60 IIRC,   so old enough to remember when information was scarce,  and required time, effort and cash to track down.

Bear in mind that this forum has a great 'hive mind' and that there is frequently original research posted up,  often contradicting existing 'facts'

(eg @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies RN research, which I read even though it's not an area of interest, but because of the research and methodolgy shown. 

 

 

If you don't want to get involved with these kind of discussions on a public forum, don't participate,  and don't post assumptions, as they will be refuted or corrected.   You could have just clicked some 'likes' or 'thanks' and none of the drama would have happened,  bear in mind posters here are trying to be helpful and answer questions. 

 

Hope of interest, again, meant to be helpful, not an attack or lecture.

 

 

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