Japanese Pearl Harbour attack aircraft?

[One 48]

Hi, looking to model in 1/48 all or as many as are available Japanese attack aircraft used on the Pearl harbour raid, I know the B2N2 Kate is one and Hasegawa do one, but unsure what the marks were for Zero's and other aircraft used and what may be available in 1/48 TIA.

I have a Hasegawa 1/48 AichiD3A1 type 99 (VAL) "2nd Flying Group" kit here, is this an appropriate VAL for the Pearl Harbour raid?

[Chuck1945]

A6M2 model 21 Zero

D3A1 for Val

you are correct regarding the ‘Kate’

[72modeler]

1 hour ago, One 48 said:

unsure what the marks were for Zero's and other aircraft used and what may be available in 1/48 TIA.

One,

 

Not my scale, but if memory serves, Hasegawa and Tamiya have done A6M2's, Fujimi and Hasegawa have done D3A1's, and Revell had a reboxed Hasegawa Val, and Hasegawa did the B2N2. That would make a nice trio on a simulated carrier deck base!

Mike

[JackG]

A listing of some colour profiles here, broken down by carrier:

 

http://japanese-aviation.forumotion.com/f2-color-profiles

 

 

regards,

Jack

[One 48]

Thanks guys, great info ... think I'll watch Tora Tora Tora tonight, feel inspired now

[Plumbum]

Pearl Harbor A6M2b Zero colors and markings here. They also have pieces off the crashed A6M2b Zeros in color. Click on thumbnails for crashed pieces.---John

http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/jimlansdale/pearl/jimlpearl.htm

[One 48]

Thanks John, great info, very helpful 👍

[Rolls-Royce]

All A6M2s at Pearl Harbor were built by Mitsubishi, so wheel wells and insides of gear covers are exterior color, not the green blue "aotake".  Mission Models' MMP-110 "J3 SP LT Grey Japanese Zero (Amber)" measures extremely close to the Munsell reference quoted by noted researcher Nicholas Millman as the color used by Mitsubishi for its A6M production. 

Edited September 7, 2019 by Rolls-Royce

[One 48]

Thanks Jordi, had a look on Amazon UK and found the book there for £23.99 and bought it, its well reviewed there, looking fwd to it, thanks.

[Brad]

Hasegawa also do their Kate with torpedo or 800kg amour piecing bomb. Unfortunately they are separate boxings.

[One 48]

4 minutes ago, Brad said:

Hasegawa also do their Kate with torpedo or 800kg amour piecing bomb. Unfortunately they are separate boxings.

Thanks Brad, just ordered a Tamiya 1/48 A6M2 ... I'm getting there 👍

[Troy Smith]

3 hours ago, One 48 said:

just ordered a Tamiya 1/48 A6M2

a quick FYI if you have time, and can change your mind, 

 

The Tamiya A6M2 kit is an OLD tooling, they did do some new A6M kits, and A6M3 and and A6M5a,  a few years back,  but their other A6M kits date from the mid 70's 

 

It's a very good kit for the era,  fine recessed lines,  good for it's era cockpit,  but the Hase A6M2 kit is from the late 90's.  

build review here of the Tamiya

 

[Plumbum]

Also I have done Tamiya AND Hasegawa Zeros. Tamiya's  looks better to me and the fit is better.

Hasegawa has a much better cockpit but that is it. The fit up of Hasegawa's wheel well area is a

total disaster!---John

[Toryu]

If you want your Pearl Harbor models to be as accurate as possible, and not just build more superficially similar replicas, I urgently recommend this book:

https://www.amazon.com/Pearl-Harbor-Model-Art-378/dp/B00COAMRW8  (you may get it for less elsewhere than Amazon), and Nick Millman's website:

http://www.aviationofjapan.com/  ( search for the respective airplanes and you'll get loads of excellent camouflage advise and examples).

 

For the less Japanese-conversant modeller those planes and their C&M are a can of worms. I see too many well-built but erroneously painted models. Kit instructions and most publications are not reliable!

 

Good luck and will be happy to see your results, Michael

 

[Plumbum]

37 minutes ago, Toryu said:

If you want your Pearl Harbor models to be as accurate as possible, and not just build more superficially similar replicas, I urgently recommend this book:

https://www.amazon.com/Pearl-Harbor-Model-Art-378/dp/B00COAMRW8  (you may get it for less elsewhere than Amazon), and Nick Millman's website:

http://www.aviationofjapan.com/  ( search for the respective airplanes and you'll get loads of excellent camouflage advise and examples).

 

For the less Japanese-conversant modeller those planes and their C&M are a can of worms. I see too many well-built but erroneously painted models. Kit instructions and most publications are not reliable!

 

Good luck and will be happy to see your results, Michael

 

So what color were they? j-aircraft was wrong?---John

[Beazer]

That sir is the greatest question of them all.

Pretty sure Zero's were never green at all.

[Plumbum]

I shall look up my references but I had read the gentleman who painted the Zero on

display at PH Museum that fine shade of green regretted it afterward knowing the real

ameiro color. I don't have the source on hand but it didn't surprise me.---John

[One 48]

Thanks guys, the Zero is to late to cancel, good to hear its more accurate than the Hasegawa one, was aware it was an old kit, actually built one over ten years ago and never had problems with it as an average modeller also it was £14 delivered, so hard to resist

Toryu, thanks, that book looks interesting if not a little expensive, ordered another book this morning as recommended by Jordi earlier in thread, bust my modelling budget for the month with a little put aside for some potential wins on ebay ending in a few days, but may consider this book in the near future.

Some great info and feedback for my little project in the thread, thanks guys.

Watched Tora Tora Tora last night on Blu Ray, not entirely accurate, but a much better film than the 2001 Pearl Harbour film, Tora Tora Tora does give a feel for what it must have like on that fateful day in history.

[Toryu]

2 hours ago, Johnv said:

So what color were they? j-aircraft was wrong?---John

 

2 hours ago, Beazer said:

That sir is the greatest question of them all.

Pretty sure Zero's were never green at all.

Right Beazer. At least most likely not blue-grey or green-grey as was suggested some years ago (also by j-aircraft) until Nick Millman's more recent research.

The biggest modeller's issues are the different ameiro shades for A6M2 and D3A1, and the correct differentiation of solid green vs. blotched top sides and silver vs. grey undersides of the B5N2. Also some of the leaders' markings as often portrayed are not confirmed but rather originate from survivors' memories.

 

1 hour ago, One 48 said:

Watched Tora Tora Tora last night on Blu Ray, not entirely accurate, but a much better film than the 2001 Pearl Harbour film, Tora Tora Tora does give a feel for what it must have like on that fateful day in history.

Absolutely! Tora Tora Tora is the much better movie, particularly as it includes some original take-off stills if I remember correctly. This Pearl Harbor film nonsense of Ben Afleck first fighting with the Eagle Squadron, then defending Pearl Harbor and finally taking part in the Doolittle Raid is hardly bearable.

 

Cheers, Michael

[Rolls-Royce]

1 hour ago, Toryu said:

 

Right Beazer. At least most likely not blue-grey or green-grey as was suggested some years ago (also by j-aircraft) until Nick Millman's more recent research.

The biggest modeller's issues are the different ameiro shades for A6M2 and D3A1, and the correct differentiation of solid green vs. blotched top sides and silver vs. grey undersides of the B5N2. Also some of the leaders' markings as often portrayed are not confirmed but rather originate from survivors' memories.

 

Absolutely! Tora Tora Tora is the much better movie, particularly as it includes some original take-off stills if I remember correctly. This Pearl Harbor film nonsense of Ben Afleck first fighting with the Eagle Squadron, then defending Pearl Harbor and finally taking part in the Doolittle Raid is hardly bearable.

 

Cheers, Michael

"Hardly bearable"? It's UN-bearable. Even Kate Beckinsale doesn't make up for it! And let's not discuss the F-16 like roll rates of the P-40s and Zeroes...

[One 48]

25 minutes ago, Jordi said:

 

 

 

 

Oh, and for the record, Pearl  Harbor does not have a "u" in it.  I know that's habit for Brits, but the proper spelling is "Harbor"

Heh, Pearl Harbor it is then, it is part of your territory after all

Looks like I've opened a right can of worms here RE: Japanese Greys n Greens, have built a few Japanese Green Zero's and Raiden's in 1/32 and 1/48 in the past and always followed the kit manufacturers paint recommendations ... when Tamiya released their first 1/32 Zero they also released their own green paint for it at same time too ... Interesting, I've got a lot of research to do  🧐

[Troy Smith]

8 minutes ago, One 48 said:

RE: Japanese Greys n Greens, have built a few Japanese Green Zero's and Raiden's in 1/32 and 1/48 in the past and always followed the kit manufacturers paint recommendations

 

 

AK Interactive do an acrylic set that seems decent, Nick Millman had input.

https://ak-interactive.com/product/ww2-ijn-aircraft-colours/

 

If you use enamel, then buy some Colourcoats

https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/collections/aircraft-of-the-imperial-japanese-navy-imperial-japanese-army

these definitely are Nick Millman approved, @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies  maybe able to add more.

13 minutes ago, One 48 said:

when Tamiya released their first 1/32 Zero they also released their own green paint for it at same time too .

they released a grey, XF-76, which is OK for a slightly weathered aircraft... in short ...the long is below

 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234938543-ijn-sky/

 

 

On 23/04/2013 at 00:58, Nick Millman said:

Notwithstanding Airfix, the D3A1 was painted in the standard IJN amber-tinted grey and never in anything resembling Humbrol 90 or RAF Sky. The two colours are completely different in hue and character.

Variance in the paint colour occurred because of the yellow-brown precipitation of the iron oxide pigment in the paint causing it to be more/less brownish or tan in appearance between aircraft manufacturers.

The closest Vallejo colour to the generic colour is Model Air 'Hemp' but it is too dark and slightly too brown, especially for a 1/72nd scale model. Tamiya XF-76 (IJN Grey-Green) best represents the colour on a moderately weathered aircraft and therefore tends towards slightly too greyish. A mix of approximately 50% H70 RLM 02 to 50% H336 Hemp using GSI Creos paints is closer. If I wanted an OOB acrylic without the need to mix and was not too fussy I'd probably go with XF-76 but Eric Bergerud pretty much nailed the colour with a home mix:-

http://www.aviationofjapan.com/2012/03/eric-bergeruds-148th-hasegawa-aichi.html

I was pleased to be able to help him a little. It's a subtle and difficult colour to both perceive and match in hobby paints but my e-guide might help:-

http://www.aviationofjapan.com/2011/10/painting-early-zero-sen-pdf-e-guide.html

Nick

http://www.aviationofjapan.com/

 

On 23/04/2013 at 09:06, Nick Millman said:

And that's still ok too so not to worry! My suggestion above was in response to the stated preference for Vallejo/ acrylic paint!

Humbrol's enamel Hemp slightly lacks the fugitive green of the original paint but there is leeway in depicting an aircraft in service as demonstrated by the paint degradation and ageing model shown here:-

http://www.aviationofjapan.com/2011/12/zero-paint-degradation-schematic-models.html

The problem for modellers is that there is no OOB paint that precisely matches the original factory paint colour so it is go with something close enough or be prepared to mix. There is more than one way to skin a cat - or to paint a Zero/Val in this case - and the natural degradation of the paint in service allows some leeway in interpretation. Plus there is the usual aspect of 'scale colour' to consider. It really depends on the individual modeller.

Nick

 

On 26/04/2013 at 10:57, Nick Millman said:

Generally speaking the colours on Pearl Harbor D3AI relics are in the approximate range FS 34201/16350 with some a little more towards 16160. Those are more or less the same FS values associated with the Zero with the more amber appearance usually associated with later Nakajima-built aircraft. Todd Pederson who examined the Pearl Harbour D3A1 relics described them as all being "grey-green towards khaki". None of the measured values of the D3A1 samples compare to FS 33440.

The comparison of those colours to the I3 (土色 - Tsuchi-iro - earth or soil colour) chip in the Japanese IJN Kariki 117 paint colour standards document has been based mainly on the cited JPMA (Japanese Paint Manufacturers Association) colour values made by comparison by at least two Japanese researchers and/or by superficial comparison of published facsimile chips (which are photographs of the original chips). Because of the circumstances of the Kariki 117 document preservation (there are two copies known) the researchers were unable to measure the paint colours with a spectrophotometer, so the matches were by necessity visual and subjective. There is a superficial resemblance between the published I3 facsimile chip and FS 33440, but read on.

The first researcher described I3 as matching JPMA 22-60D and FS 20318. JPMA 22-60D is equivalent to Munsell 2.5 Y 6/1. This causes an immediate problem:-

The closest FS value to 2.5 Y 6/1 is FS 36306 @ 2.76 (Where less than 2.0 = close match). The difference between 2.5 Y 6/1 and 20318 is 6.36. They are quite different in appearance. So immediately we have to ask whether the I3 chip is really more like 2.5 Y 6/1 or 20318? Neither FS 36306 nor 20318 bear any resemblance to the Val/Zero paint colours.

But there is more to it than that.

He also compared the L2 chip (鼠色- Nezumi iro - rat or mouse colour) to JPMA 25-50D and FS 16350. 25-50D is equivalent to Munsell 5 Y 5/1. The closest FS value to 5 Y 5/1 is actually 34201, but not so close @ 4.91. Whereas FS 16350 is @ 5.82. So even at this stage we might say that based on this researcher's comparisons the Val/Zero colour is actually more like L2 than I3. And indeed the maintenance manual of the Zero describes the paint as "grey rat colour" (灰鼠色 - Hai nezumi iro). AFAIK no official documents describe the D3A1 (or Zero) paint as I3.

The second researcher compared I3 to 25-50D (the same colour that the first had matched to L2!) but stated I3 was brighter. He compared L2 to 35-40D - Munsell 5 GY 4/1. The closest FS value to that is FS 26134 @ 4.29. Comparing that to the first researcher's FS 16350 the difference calculation is an incredible 14.9. FS 16350 is not a "brighter" version of 26134 as a examination of a FS595B deck will reveal. In Munsell terms FS 16350 is 5.0 Y 5.4/1.9 vs 4.5 GY 4.2/0.4. I suspect that the researchers were examining the chips under different lighting conditions and possibly under artificial light.

So, none of those comparisons or the conclusions based on them can be considered as reliable or verified. But even if we accept the JPMA/Munsell values as reasonable matches and compare them to your suggested FS 33440 we get the following difference calculations:-

2.5 Y 6/1 to FS 33440 = 12.7 (where less than 2.0 equals a close match)
FS 20318 to FS 33440 = 7.81
FS 36306 to 33440 = 12.2
5 Y 5/1 to FS 33440 = 12.9

Finally, bear in mind that the author of the Yokosuka Kaigun Kokutai (KuGiSho) Report No.0266 Lt. Cdr Kiyoto Hanamoto referred to the paint colour as follows:-

"The paint color currently in use for the Type 0 KanSen is J3 (Haiiro - ash or gray colour) leaning slightly toward amber colour (Ameiro - caramel or candy colour)."

The report itself cites the Kariki 117 paint colour designations throughout and even refers to I2 Tsuchi-iro as one of the camouflage paint colours to be used on a canvas screen (to be used to cover aircraft on the ground). If the aircraft paint colour had been I3 it should have been recorded as I3 in the report in the same way all the other colours were recorded. It was not.

The differentiation of the D3A1 colour as I3 is associated with the long running promotion of the Zero colour as a cooler minty grey-green matched to M1 (Hairyokushoku) in the Kariki 117 colours, a position which has even influenced Japanese enthusiasts. Unfortunately this promotion is not supported by measurement of the extant paint samples or by analysis of the pigments used in the original paint which clearly point to what might be described as a brownish or amber-tinted grey with a fugitive green caste. The M colours in Kariki 117 were scheduled for use as IJN cockpit interior colours and the analysis of extant cockpit paints confirms that.

The degree of ambering in the grey or grey-green is crucial and is precisely the same subtle colour shift observed between RLM 63 and RLM 02. Comparisons of the colour are highly susceptible to observer metameric failure which is prevalent among observers when it comes to subjective colour matching. In all cases, the proportion of long-wavelength-sensitive cones to medium-wavelength-sensitive cones in the retina, the profile of light sensitivity in each type of cone, and the amount of yellowing in the lens and macular pigment of the eye, differs from one person to the next. This alters the relative importance of different wavelengths in a spectral power distribution to each observer's colour perception. As a result, two spectrally dissimilar surfaces may produce a colour match for one observer but fail to match when viewed by a second observer. In hobby terms the most prevalent demonstration is the subjective matching of paint colours in comparison charts.

If a modeller chooses to depict a D3A1 in a colour approaching FS 16160 (similar to WEM ACJ17 Nakajima Amber Grey although that is a little lighter - scale?) then the debate becomes largely academic as to whether that represents I3 or a slightly more tan variant of "J3 leaning slightly towards amber colour". IMO though FS 33440 would be just too much a sandy brown to represent any of the D3A1/Zero colours even allowing for scale.

Nick

[Rolls-Royce]

Hi, Troy. If I may weigh in on this, I built a 1/48 Hasegawa A6M2 last year. I was eager to begin using acrylics as enamels are getting harder to come by locally, so I purchased Mission Models', Vallejo's, and AK-Interactive's takes on the Zero amber-grey (the last two as part of their IJN aircraft kits). I had purchased Nicholas Millman's treatise on "Painting the Early Zero" and was curious how accurate these paints were. Using the same gear and software I used yesterday to measure the red and blue in another post here, I measured them against Nick's quoted Munsell 7.4Y 5.8/2.0. The AK-Interactive AK-2062 measured out at a dE2000 of 4.28 (with 2.0 or less being a VERY close match). Vallejo's 71.311 came in at a dE2000 of 7.36. The winner was Mission Models' MMP-110, at a dE2000 of 1.31. If the OP can get it locally to him, the MMP-110 would be the best choice, followed at a distant second by the AK-2062.

[Troy Smith]

18 minutes ago, Rolls-Royce said:

Hi, Troy. If I may weigh in on this, I built a 1/48 Hasegawa A6M2 last year. I was eager to begin using acrylics as enamels are getting harder to come by locally, so I purchased Mission Models', Vallejo's, and AK-Interactive's takes on the Zero amber-grey (the last two as part of their IJN aircraft kits). I had purchased Nicholas Millman's treatise on "Painting the Early Zero" and was curious how accurate these paints were. Using the same gear and software I used yesterday to measure the red and blue in another post here, I measured them against Nick's quoted Munsell 7.4Y 5.8/2.0. The AK-Interactive AK-2062 measured out at a dE2000 of 4.28 (with 2.0 or less being a VERY close match). Vallejo's 71.311 came in at a dE2000 of 7.36. The winner was Mission Models' MMP-110, at a dE2000 of 1.31. If the OP can get it locally to him, the MMP-110 would be the best choice, followed at a distant second by the AK-2062.

Thanks, very interesting. Neat bit of 'weighing in'  

 

AFAIK Mission Models are not widely available in the UK.

AK Interative and Vallejo are pretty easy to get mailorder.    A question/ request,  any chance of doing a swatch of all 3 mentioned paints,   and putting up a photo,  always useful to get an idea of the variation.

From memory (the paints are elsewhere at the mo) the AK amber grey looked rather dark, i think Nick may have commentated on this on the blog, but right this moment, laziness is winning over the research rabbit hole.

 

I'm wary of AK, due to the results of their Real Colors of WW2 armour book,  and the paints this generated.  

see here, read down.

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235049761-british-olive-drab-no15/page/2/

 

AK don't seem too bothered about 'getting it right'   on the flip, @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies is a member here,  welcomes informed input and 'getting it right', and will change paints colurs in light of new information.

He has done some fascinating primary research on WW2 RN colours,  and post the results up here. Not an area of particular interest to me, but I read the postings as I enjoy the mechanics of the research and deductions used, which I do find interesting.

 

He doesn't do acrylic, as he hasn't found one he'd use, the only reason I don't use Colourcoats is I really do not like the fumes and clean up of oil based paint, and that said, I'm tempted to try some because I trust the research.  (I also don't want to buy a load and find I still don't like oil based paint..this is from having done a load of DIY over the years, initially with oil based paint,  and I now use acrylic as much as I can for those jobs)  

Other companies would do well to learn from Colourcoats approach.

 

As an aside, Jamie, you mentioned in a past thread about not making acrylics unless you were satisfied with the paint yourself,  perhaps a more pragmatic approach would be if they were as good as the best acrylics currently available, as acrylic users are used to the limitations of the medium,  but I appreciate the honesty of your "if I don't like them, I don't want to sell them" approach as well.

 

cheers

T

[Rolls-Royce]

I'll see what I can do about that swatch, Troy. I may still have the original I did the readings from.