North American PBJ-1J questions

[pigsty]

My next project will be a 1/48 PBJ-1J, from the Monogram B-25J kit, with the classic blue and white colour scheme for the USMC.

 

First quick question: the lighter blue is Intermediate Blue.  Is the darker blue the same Glossy Sea Blue as seen overall on countless Hellcats and Corsairs?  And if it is, what would be a good match for it, preferably from Humbrol?

[Troy Smith]

10 minutes ago, pigsty said:

My next project will be a 1/48 PBJ-1J, from the Monogram B-25J kit, with the classic blue and white colour scheme for the USMC.

 

First quick question: the lighter blue is Intermediate Blue. 

yes

10 minutes ago, pigsty said:

 

Is the darker blue the same Glossy Sea Blue as seen overall on countless Hellcats and Corsairs?

No.  the Overall blue is Gloss Sea Blue ANA 623, the 3(actually 4 color scheme used ANA606 Semi-Gloss Sea Blue and ANA607 Non-Specular Sea Blue, along with  ANA608 Intermediate Blue.

10 minutes ago, pigsty said:

 

  And if it is, what would be a good match for it, preferably from Humbrol?

Best match is the Colourcoats, in fact AFAIK it's the only accurate match

see

Quote

The scheme is actually four colors - white, Intermediate Blue, Semi-gloss Sea Blue (atop the wings and horizontal tail), and Non-Specular Sea Blue (atop the fuselage and on leading edges of the wings and stabs). The last two colors differ in more than the gloss factor - non-spec is distinctly grayer and lighter than the semi-gloss. I generally refer to the scheme as 4-color to clarify the differences.

There was a later version where all of the paints were glossy - it wasn't seen often, but it certainly was a three-color scheme.

Cheers,

Dana

 

@Dana Bell  maybe able to shed light on what the 3/4 color PBJ-1J scheme was, but it was a standard scheme, applied to all types.

 

 

Quote

On 31/12/2016 at 14:42, Dana Bell said:

Hi Ian,

 

I look forward to your results!

 

There are a couple of other reasons the model paint manufacturers have had problems matching the Sea Blues.  Most are working from the FS595 chips, which never accurately matched all three versions of the wartime colors.  The other problem is that the formula for ANA 623 Glossy Sea Blue changed in 1947/48.  The original color faded to quickly and was replaced with more resilient pigments.  When the US Navy gave modelers the old stocks of ANA paint chips in the 1960s/70s, some of us got the 1944 card-stock chip of ANA 623, while others got the 1948 metal replacement chips.  I can well remember the arguments back then, arguments that arose because we were working from different standards!g

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

 

@pigsty  I did a while back find a photo of a PBJ-1J  wreck which showed the wing tip cut for the radar pod,  AFAIK it was the standard pod as seen on other USN types, 

There maybe some useful. info here

 

 

HTH

T

[pigsty]

Hugely helpful, thank you.  And yet, not good news!

 

Looking up the possible matches on IPMS Stockholm, they say that ANA 607, 607 and 623 are all variations of FS X5042.  Clearly these can only be approximations - ANA isn’t FS - but it does make me scratch my head.  They also offer some rough Humbrol and Xtracolour matches, but I’m sure you’re right - Colourcoats is bound to be the best.  Just the right time for them to announce they won’t be at Telford; and I’d need three tins at most, half their minimum order. 

 

On the other hand, most PBJs were horribly weathered and faded, so it might be enough to get something close and go mad with the pastels.  I must ponder.

 

Knowing it was a three-blue scheme apart from the undersides is very useful.

 

As for the radar, I’m all set up, as I have the nose-mounted radar set from Obscureco.  Apparently the PBJ-1J was usually built with it on the wing, but the crews often moved it back to the nose, so I shall go with that.  As the markings were usually confined to a couple of big white numerals and the roundels, it will be hard to prove I’ve got it wrong.

[Troy Smith]

3 minutes ago, pigsty said:

As for the radar, I’m all set up, as I have the nose-mounted radar set from Obscureco.

some of these were overall blue, I'm not turning up images, I have seen them,  they often had the top turret removed as well. 

http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/2/t/26520.aspx

 

thread about Tiny Tim use/trails,  by @Tailspin Turtle

Quote

10 Tiny Tim missions were flown by VMB-612 between 21 July 1945 and 14 August.

note the writing on the tail.

 

 

I'm sure there are more pics overall GSB PBJ-1J's,  there is the PBJ Mitchell units of the  Pacific war,  maybe on google book as it's fairly typical of the Osprey books

there is also

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Leatherneck-Bombers-Marine-Mitchell-Squadrons/dp/0764315013

 

which I have, but not too hand.

27 minutes ago, pigsty said:

Looking up the possible matches on IPMS Stockholm, they say that ANA 607, 607 and 623 are all variations of FS X5042.  Clearly these can only be approximations - ANA isn’t FS - but it does make me scratch my head.

none of them match FSx5042, which is the post 1947 replacement for ANA623.

AFAIK, the information I posted on the various USN blues is accurate, based on the last @Dana Bell had to say on this, and thus the rest of what you read is inaccurate....

 

27 minutes ago, pigsty said:

 

 

  They also offer some rough Humbrol and Xtracolour matches, but I’m sure you’re right - Colourcoats is bound to be the best.  Just the right time for them to announce they won’t be at Telford; and I’d need three tins at most, half their minimum order. 

 

On the other hand, most PBJs were horribly weathered and faded, so it might be enough to get something close and go mad with the pastels.  I must ponder.

 

There have been discussions on the colors, the difference between ANA 607 and ANA 606 is visible when new

as seen here

 

Sorry can't help with Humbrol mixes.  I have the book mentioned in the link, and the colors are quite hard to describe,  ANA 606 and 607 when new are darker and greyer than you would think.

 

 

[Graham Boak]

My heart always sinks a little when I see comments like "I looked it up on (name your favourite website) and they say use (whatever)"  Rule one to always keep in mind is that equivalent model paints aren't.  Close maybe - but only maybe, and if the producers aren't keeping up to date with colour research then not even then.

 

As for only needing three paints - or perhaps in this case four.  What about interiors?  Tyres.  Aluminium.  Gunmetal.  All those basic colours that you'll never stop using, so will need another tin before too long, even if not immediately?  Surely there's something else in the Colourcoats range that will be needed before too long.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Graham Boak

[pat d]

HTH, PBJ colours note how wing colour wraps around leading edges...

 

s

Edited September 5, 2019 by Julien
please read the site rules about posting pictures from airliners.net

[pat d]

OOPS, forgot a few more...

[Tail-Dragon]

1 hour ago, pat d said:

OOPS, forgot a few more...

Interesting to note that on that first image, Life had printed it reversed (mirror imaged)! The 75mm cannon appears to be on the right hand side - I suppose with no serial or letters showing, they couldn't tell which way it went.

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

10 hours ago, pigsty said:

Colourcoats is bound to be the best.  Just the right time for them to announce they won’t be at Telford; and I’d need three tins at most, half their minimum order. 

 

If you to do some dodgy deal in a pub carpark nearby I could have some stashed in my pocket during my networking visit 🍻

[Pete M.]

While not in colour, the following photos of Marine PB1's were taken by a Kiwi pilot, Neville Jackson who did 3 tours with No.21 Squadron RNZAF. Copies via Dave Homewood and Kerry Carlyle.

The Kiwis were usually called on to escort both US Army, Navy and Marine strikes on Rabaul and the surrounding areas. All are in the standard US Navy's 1944 '4-Tone' scheme.

 

 

 

 

Hope these help and don't confuse any further!

 

Cheers,

Pete M.

[Pete M.]

6 minutes ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

 

If you to do some dodgy deal in a pub carpark nearby I could have some stashed in my pocket during my networking visit 🍻

I would like some too, but unfortunately, can't pack them in my bag to ship home to NZ!!!!  😠

[pigsty]

More thank you to all.  Those new pictures have answered my next question too - the ANA 606 goes across the whole span, not just up to the engines as happens with some colour schemes.  Although it looks as though you get a choice of wrapping that or the ANA 608 around the leading edge.  This is absolutely the scheme for me.  I don’t much fancy the overall Sea Blue alternative, especially as it’s reserved for my F7F-3.  This still leaves me a problem with how to paint a PV-1 and make it look different, but with my stash, I don’t have to resolve that for at least sixty years.

 

I have the Osprey book by Jerry Scutts, and the more I look at it, the less certain I am.  Still, very handy, and very interesting.

 

Talking of interesting … Jamie, PM on its way.

[pat d]

Do the PV-1 in a sea search scheme😉

[Mike Starmer]

I have a copy of Elliott's USN & Marine WW2  colours and a 1943 ANA 3-1 set of colour swatches.  The gloss Sea Blue 607 in those match and my mix for those is Humbrols 4 x H77 blue + 1 x H68 purple.  Then satin varnish over this when dry.  As stated this is very noticeably different to the later gloss Sea Blue that is usually quoted.