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HMS King George V in 1942


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Thanks for the new information, but I was just wondering if it's known before the paint is put down, is there a primer (is the colour known?) put down on it first or is the paint just put on bare metal?

 

Bit of a daft question maybe but it's something I don't know anything about after looking at this imagine.

 

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Wanting to know for the weathering of my KGV. With the peeled paint I dunno if I'm looking at older existing paint from previous camouflage schemes, primer, rust ect. My guess would be a bit of everything above?

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According to Confidential Book 3098(R) (commonly abbreviated to C.B.3098(R)*) promulgated in May 1943:

 

Section 7 - Paint and Directions for Painting

Para. 137

Quote

 


Preparatory work

 

137.     In time of war, it may not be possible always to follow the correct procedure in painting. It should, however, be recognised that the satisfactory behaviour of paint depends as much on the way in which it is applied as on the ingredients used in its manufacture. The following directions should be observed so far as time and opportunity allow:

 

                  (a) New Painting – New steel should be well wire-brushed to remove rust and loose scale. The surface should then be wiped clean and covered with red lead paint, Admiralty pattern 509, preferably in two successive coats. To obtain good results, it is of particular importance that each coat should be thoroughly hard and dry before subsequent coats are applied. Red lead, being a very slow ­drying paint, requires at least three days in which to harden.

 

This should be followed by at least one undercoat of ordinary oil paint. For preference, the last undercoat should be of approximately the average tone of the camouflage pattern that is to succeed it, e.g.:

 

Type of design.                                                                                        Tone of undercoat

 

Western Approaches     ..          ..          ..          ..          ..          ..          ..          .. G.45

Light Admiralty and similar types         ..          ..          ..          ..          ..          .. G.45

Intermediate                  ..          ..          ..          ..          ..          ..          ..          .. G.20

Dark Admiralty              ..          ..          ..          ..          ..          ..          ..          .. G.10

 

                   (b) Repainting – Exposed steel should be freed from scale, rust, oil, grease and other accretions and coated with red lead and an undercoat as above.

Old paintwork should be washed down, with fresh water if possible, to remove salt. Chalking should be removed by washing or brushing, and rust and paint that has flaked or cracked should be removed by wire brushing or chipping. The surface should be touched up with red lead and an undercoat where necessary, and the camouflage coat may then be applied.

 

If the old paintwork is porous and thirsty, it will absorb an excessive amount of the binding medium of the new paint, and chalking and general deterioration will ensue. Such a surface will not be uniformly absorbent. The treatment recommended in such a case is to rub the old surface with linseed oil before applying the new coat; but before the latter is put on, great care should be taken to remove any free oil from the surface; otherwise, the drying of the new paint may be retarded by an excess of oil in places where the old surface is less absorbent. The new paint may then be used with the standard proportions of oil and spirit. If time does not permit of this treatment, the oil content of the new paint may be increased and the amount of spirit decreased; but because the old surface will not be uniformly absorbent, the increase of oil will again retard the drying of the new paint in places, and this method should therefore only be used with discretion.

 

 

(c) General – Paint should only be applied in dry weather; extremes of temperature should be avoided.

Each coat should be properly dry before the following coat is applied.

 

Red lead is rather brilliant in colour and may make a ship undesirably conspicuous before it is covered with the undercoat. Its colour may be effectively neutralised by the admixture of a small proportion of black pigment, e.g., lamp black ground in oil, without any appreciable loss in its efficacy as a protective covering.

 

 

 

Please note the very last paragraph about dulling the bright red Red Lead primer with black pigment. It's not really possible to determine exactly what we're seeing under eroded paint, but hopefully the above text will give an appreciation of what the general practise was supposed to be. You can then decide what you wish to portray knowing what seems to be a realistic scenario. I believe ( @dickrd correct me if I'm mistaken) that this paint would originally have been applied in the dockyard at Liverpool from March-June 1944. Subsequently, the ship moved to Scapa Flow to work up until end of September post-refit. There seems adequate time in there so I think it unlikely that the G45 and B20 paints were simply slapped over the 1943 disruptive camouflage without any undercoating. Whether the ship was stripped back to bare metal is another thing altogether. I do think there would be a couple of layers of new paint to erode through to get to any remaining 1943 camouflage paint. I think it very likely that at a minimum some localised parts of the ship would have been stripped back to bare metal to remove corrosion and would have been re-primed with red lead even if the whole hull wasn't stripped.

 

*Facsimile copies of the whole document are available. It's entitled "THE CAMOUFLAGE OF SHIPS AT SEA", is about 115 pages long in facsimile form and contains a lot of theory, explanation about which type of camouflage was intended for protection against which threat under which weather and lighting conditions, detail instructions such as where to use counter-shading, as well as a large number of colour illustrations of standard camouflage designs for various classes of destroyers and smaller ships down to and including motor boats e.g. Fairmiles, Vospers etc. The camouflage scheme used on KGV there as per your photograph post dates CB3098(R)-1943 by just over a year and thinking had moved on in some regards. CB3098(R) was therefore updated and reissued in 1945 containing the standard schemes of which KGV is wearing "Scheme A".

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2 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

According to Confidential Book 3098(R) (commonly abbreviated to C.B.3098(R)*) promulgated in May 1943:

 

Section 7 - Paint and Directions for Painting

Para. 137

 

 

Please note the very last paragraph about dulling the bright red Red Lead primer with black pigment. It's not really possible to determine exactly what we're seeing under eroded paint, but hopefully the above text will give an appreciation of what the general practise was supposed to be. You can then decide what you wish to portray knowing what seems to be a realistic scenario. I believe ( @dickrd correct me if I'm mistaken) that this paint would originally have been applied in the dockyard at Liverpool from March-June 1944. Subsequently, the ship moved to Scapa Flow to work up until end of September post-refit. There seems adequate time in there so I think it unlikely that the G45 and B20 paints were simply slapped over the 1943 disruptive camouflage without any undercoating. Whether the ship was stripped back to bare metal is another thing altogether. I do think there would be a couple of layers of new paint to erode through to get to any remaining 1943 camouflage paint. I think it very likely that at a minimum some localised parts of the ship would have been stripped back to bare metal to remove corrosion and would have been re-primed with red lead even if the whole hull wasn't stripped.

 

*Facsimile copies of the whole document are available. It's entitled "THE CAMOUFLAGE OF SHIPS AT SEA", is about 115 pages long in facsimile form and contains a lot of theory, explanation about which type of camouflage was intended for protection against which threat under which weather and lighting conditions, detail instructions such as where to use counter-shading, as well as a large number of colour illustrations of standard camouflage designs for various classes of destroyers and smaller ships down to and including motor boats e.g. Fairmiles, Vospers etc. The camouflage scheme used on KGV there as per your photograph post dates CB3098(R)-1943 by just over a year and thinking had moved on in some regards. CB3098(R) was therefore updated and reissued in 1945 containing the standard schemes of which KGV is wearing "Scheme A".

 

Thank you so much for taking your time to reply with such a detailed response. That document I'll be looking buy now that you've pointed me to the right direction. From what you've said it seems like I'd have a few options anyway for artistic license while trying to remain true to the real thing, the weathering is gonna be interesting. :)

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An interesting teaser @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies!

 

@Boydie's photo shows KGV arriving at Sydney in February 1945. There is heavy peeling of the Standard Scheme paintwork at the forward end of the B20 panel (and just forward of it) revealing something very dark underneath. This matches an area that would have been painted the darkest (presumed G10) tone in her disruptive scheme.

 

There are photos on the IWM site of KGV at Alexandria in November 1944 on her way to the East in the Standard Scheme.

 

There are photographs on the IWM site of a Royal visit to KGV at Greenock on 29th October 1944. If KGV was still in her disruptive scheme at that time elements of it would have been visible in the background. They are not, so it would appear she was in the Standard Scheme at that time.

 

The Standard Scheme was introduced to the Fleet as whole (ie including to ships in Home waters) by CAFO 2269 dated 12th October 1944. Prior to that had been in use as a local scheme by elements of the Eastern Fleet since early 1944.

 

If naval-history.net is correct, KGV was in dockyard hands for a major refit February-July 1944 and I feel sure, like Jamie, that this would have presented an opportunity to do a proper job when repainting her. The question is though what scheme did they repaint her with at that time? What we need is a photo of KGV July - September 1944 and a copy of her log for the period 17-28 October 1944 to see if, after two months with the Home Fleet, and after and in accordance with CAFO 2269/44, she did a self-repaint in anticipation of the Royal visit.

Edited by dickrd
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  • 11 months later...
38 minutes ago, gamevender said:

Actually in 1945 when she was in the scheme shown above in Sydney. 

 

May I direct you to this thread which recently dealt with this exact topic? https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235115472-hms-kgv-question/

 

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On 12/19/2022 at 10:13 AM, Rich75 said:

@Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies  interesting to see this crop up again, can i ask if you have a colour for Admiralty 509, as @Boydie says it will make for an interesting attempt at wear and tear, especially for me!

 

Hi Rich, I might be suffering memory loss but I've no recollection of Admiralty Pattern 509. Did you mean 507 or have I mentioned a 509 previously elsewhere?

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1 hour ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

 

Hi Rich, I might be suffering memory loss but I've no recollection of Admiralty Pattern 509. Did you mean 507 or have I mentioned a 509 previously elsewhere?

Hi Jamie, I was referring to your Paint and directions for painting, preparatory work document above, I should have said red lead! It says red lead Admiralty pattern 509, would that be a kind of red oxide colour? Or have I misunderstood?

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  • 1 month later...
On 12/24/2022 at 2:48 PM, Rich75 said:

Hi Jamie, I was referring to your Paint and directions for painting, preparatory work document above, I should have said red lead! It says red lead Admiralty pattern 509, would that be a kind of red oxide colour? Or have I misunderstood?

 

Sorry I completely forgot about this. I've never made a specific model paint product for this stuff as the shade varies a bit today and we don't have any samples of contemporary Admiralty Pattern red lead. The general stuff still exists though in the boating world although the shade can vary. One issue even looking at old photos is that it's easily confused with red oxide of iron used widely at the same time, although the purposes were supposed to be different. 

 

Red lead can vary from an orange-red to something like a "post office" red. Something like this:

Submarine getting a once-over,1943.

 

...although between you and me I wouldn't bet the farm it was definitely red lead and not red oxide of iron. (but I think it's lead)

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9 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

 

Sorry I completely forgot about this. I've never made a specific model paint product for this stuff as the shade varies a bit today and we don't have any samples of contemporary Admiralty Pattern red lead. The general stuff still exists though in the boating world although the shade can vary. One issue even looking at old photos is that it's easily confused with red oxide of iron used widely at the same time, although the purposes were supposed to be different. 

 

Red lead can vary from an orange-red to something like a "post office" red. Something like this:

Submarine getting a once-over,1943.

 

...although between you and me I wouldn't bet the farm it was definitely red lead and not red oxide of iron. (but I think it's lead)

Thanks Jamie, something to work with there then, they weren't wrong  saying it was "rather brilliant in colour " no wonder it was recommended to tone it down a bit

Edited by Rich75
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