Mystery FE2b and Bristol Fighter

[mhaselden]

A relative who served in the RFC had this photo in his collection.  I have no idea where or when it was taken, although the subject is certainly interesting.  

 

 

The first numerals of the serial number are '55' with possibly another '5' as the third numeral.  Can anyone out there in Britmodeller-land shed any additional light on where this airframe served?  

 

Many thanks,

Mark

[Rob G]

I'd be inclined to interpret that 2nd digit as a 9. Apart from that, I have nothing useful to add. Sorry.

 

Edit. Also, it would seem to be in a shallow lake or pond, and the chap on the tail unit looks to be in a state of undress. Interesting, as you say.

[mhaselden]

Hi Rob,

 

Having seen the original, I can confirm that the second digit is definitely a '5'.  The third digit appears to be either a '3', '5' or, possibly, a '9'.  I think '3' is the most likely but I can't rule out the other options.

 

I agree the location appears to be a shallow lake, pond or marsh.  The chap on the tail is actually fully-clothed but I presume he's up there to secure a rope so they can right the aircraft.  The prop has been removed, perhaps to provide more secure footing for the ladder.  It's possible the chap at far right is my relative but the original image isn't very clear and it's impossible to be certain that it's him.  I'd dearly love to know where and when this image was taken but I think the odds are pretty slim.

 

Sadly, my relative's WW1 service as an Aircraft Mechanic is woefully lacking in details.  Apart from his enlistment and training at South Farnborough and his various promotions up to Sergeant, I have no details of his service prior to November 1917.  Based on photos, it appears he may have served in the Farnborough/Aldershot/Reading area for at least some of the time from 4 February 1915 and when he commenced flying training on 9 November 1917.  This image likely has nothing to do with his flying career because he never flew the FE2b.

 

Cheers,
Mark

[Kev The Modeller]

15 minutes ago, mhaselden said:

Sadly, my relative's WW1 service as an Aircraft Mechanic is woefully lacking in details.  Apart from his enlistment and training at South Farnborough and his various promotions up to Sergeant, I have no details of his service prior to November 1917.  Based on photos, it appears he may have served in the Farnborough/Aldershot/Reading area for at least some of the time from 4 February 1915 and when he commenced flying training on 9 November 1917.  This image likely has nothing to do with his flying career because he never flew the FE2b.

 

Cheers,
Mark

They're ways to broaden your search if you haven't already. My experience is with army records but the system is much the same.  In my day nothing was on line unlike today most if not all can be done from your laptop, doesn't allow you to handle the real thing which is amazing but save all the travelling to Kew.  As you no doubt know RFC records are kept with army records (WO 363, 364 & 372 series), up until 1 Apr 18 when all serving members of the RFC were transferred to the RAF (AIR), all records for still serving, were moved from WO to AIR.  A quick look at AIR 79 or if you don't know his service No AIR 78 could well throw up more details.  If he was commissioned due to his later flying training and was still serving post 1 Apr 18  you could search AIR 76. The fact he did flying training is another avenue as there must be records of that somewhere. Another way is to search after he was discharged e.g. pension records officers PMG 42/13-16 they're also section dealing with payments to dependants, I can't find any reference to non officers pensions but there must be one.  It's a bit of a minefield until you work out what things are telling you, but if you can spend the time you'll be amazed what you can find out. best of luck mate. 

 

 Do come back to us and let us know how you get on. 

[AWFK10]

Looking at the listing of FE2 serials in the Cross & Cockade book, the serial has to be A55xx. Unfortunately there's no information that would definitely link any of the 30 airframes in the A553x, 555x or 559x ranges with a set of circumstances like this, though many of them ended their career in a crash. And of course the aircraft in the photo is unlikely to have been a write off, so this mishap may not even be recorded in the book. Forced landings are noted in some cases but again, no mention of an aircraft coming down in water.

[mhaselden]

28 minutes ago, Kev The Modeller said:

They're ways to broaden your search if you haven't already. My experience is with army records but the system is much the same.  In my day nothing was on line unlike today most if not all can be done from your laptop, doesn't allow you to handle the real thing which is amazing but save all the travelling to Kew.  As you no doubt know RFC records are kept with army records (WO 363, 364 & 372 series), up until 1 Apr 18 when all serving members of the RFC were transferred to the RAF (AIR), all records for still serving, were moved from WO to AIR.  A quick look at AIR 79 or if you don't know his service No AIR 78 could well throw up more details.  If he was commissioned due to his later flying training and was still serving post 1 Apr 18  you could search AIR 76. The fact he did flying training is another avenue as there must be records of that somewhere. Another way is to search after he was discharged e.g. pension records officers PMG 42/13-16 they're also section dealing with payments to dependants, I can't find any reference to non officers pensions but there must be one.  It's a bit of a minefield until you work out what things are telling you, but if you can spend the time you'll be amazed what you can find out. best of luck mate. 

 

 Do come back to us and let us know how you get on. 

 

Hi Kev,

 

Most of the details I have are drawn from his service records.  Thus far, I've found 3 different versions of his service record, each varying in its degree of completeness.  None of them have details of his service from 4 Feb 1915 to 7 Nov 1917, the only exception being his promotion dates.  Ironically, one of the most complete records was in AIR 76 despite the fact that he was never commissioned (ahhh, the vagaries of family history research!).

 

Having exhausted the documentary routes, I'm now trying to glean as much information as possible from the photos, hence this post.  I don't even have details of the production batches of FE2bs so I don't know how many airframes could possibly be the one in my image.  I'm 99% certain the photo was taken in the UK which might narrow things down a wee bit.

Any help re the photo would be very much appreciated.

 

Cheers,

Mark

 

.  

[AWFK10]

If the photo was taken in the UK, I would say that eliminates A5591 - A5599, which were allocated direct to the BEF. The A553x FE2s were delivered from June 1917, so that's the earliest date the photo could have been taken.

[mhaselden]

I think it was taken in the UK but can't be 100% certain.  There's nothing on the image, its reverse or the card it's contained in that indicates where or when the photo was taken.  My relative did eventually go to France in September 1918, serving with 11 Sqn but they replaced their FE2s with Brisfits in 1917, so I doubt it would be an 11 Sqn machine (unless there's evidence that one of the A559* airframes was allocated to 11 Sqn).

 

My relative had another photo that was in exactly the same card folder as the FE2b pic.  This second image showed a very crashed Brisfit:

 

 

My relative did prang a couple of Brisfits during his time but I don't think this is one of them.  I have pics of one crash and this is clearly a different event.  The other crash he was involved in was an engine failure while on a recce mission in France, resulting in him force-landing on a (thankfully friendly) trench.  That event was in October 1918 and this image doesn't scream "front-line trench in October 1918" to me.  It looks to me like a summertime event, probably in either a rear area or in the UK (the officer at right is rather too spick and span to be in the trenches).  My relative did fly Brisfits while still in training with 8 Training Squadron at Netheravon/Witney, and with No.1 (Obs) School of Air Gunnery. 

 

Now, I may be wrong in my assumption that these are UK-based images.  They could relate to my relative's time on 11 Sqn.  However, the former seems more likely.  I find it interesting that both this image and the FE2b pic at the start of this thread were the same size, and glued into identical white embossed folding card covers.

Edited August 30, 2019 by mhaselden

[AWFK10]

The A559* series went to 101 or 102 Sqns, as night bombers. The exceptions are A5590, which is listed only as going to 2 Air Issues Section from a Stores Depot on 28 July 1918 and A5595, which although earmarked for the BEF was reallocated to C Flight of 33 Home Defence Sqn at Elsham, Lincs. Most seem to have been written off well before your relative reached France. (Bizarrely, A5599 was (a) shot down by ground fire on 29 Sep 1918, with its crew taken prisoner - i.e. it was lost behind the German lines, with no hope of salvage - and (b) crashed in a gale at Kirton Lindsey two months later. Sounds as though two airframes had somehow acquired the same identity.)

 

Some of these FEs passed through the Southern Aircraft Repair Depot at Farnborough, which as well as doing what it says on the tin also tested new machines delivered from the manufacturer. In particular, I notice A5539:

 

Tested 4.7.17: engine rough, pressure dud

6.7.17: OK

7.7.17: pressure dud, 2nd magneto cutting out

13.7.17: force-landed at Cheddington, Bucks.

 

I don't know the area at all but looking at Google Maps there seem to be several lakes near Cheddington. It's not a cert by any stretch of the imagination but it's a possibility.

[mhaselden]

Wow!  That's fantastic.  Entirely agree it's not guaranteed to be the pictured FE2b but it's at least a plausible option.  Now it's still entirely possible that we're seeing an entirely different aircraft and that the event in the image went unrecorded...which makes it hard because we can't prove a negative.  However, in the absence of any other contenders, we can at least start a list with A5539 being the current most likely contender.

 

Many, MANY thanks for looking up the info.  It's a great to have at least one option on the table.  

 

Cheers,
Mark

[Kev The Modeller]

Hi Mark,

 

As you've gone through AIR files mentioned above and you now have a very good possible ID of the aircraft, you could also try Sqn War Diary's and Ops AIR 24, 27, 28 & 29.  

[AWFK10]

Hi Mark. Glad to be able to help a little, especially as it's a relative. I've been finding out more about my own grandfather's WW1 service over the last couple of years and our ancestors who served in that war deserve to be remembered.

 

Regards

 

Patrick

[mhaselden]

5 hours ago, AWFK10 said:

Hi Mark. Glad to be able to help a little, especially as it's a relative. I've been finding out more about my own grandfather's WW1 service over the last couple of years and our ancestors who served in that war deserve to be remembered.

 

Regards

 

Patrick

 

Hi Patrick,

 

If the FE2b is A5539 that was being tested at Farnborough, then it's likely my relative was stationed there and, logically, that the Brisfit was also based there.  Unfortunately, with no serial to go on, the odds of any positive identification of the Brisfit are slim to non-existent.  However, it does seem increasingly likely that my relative spent most of his pre-flying career in the Farnborough/Aldershot/Reading area.

 

Cheers,

Mark 

Edited August 30, 2019 by mhaselden

[John Aero]

 Private cameras were officially forbidden in operational areas but were a bit more relaxed in the UK.

 

John

[mhaselden]

Well, it's only been 4+ years but I finally made a discovery that, although not a smoking gun, increases some potential connective tissue in the various records.

 

I went to Kew today and pored through some files of Farnborough's daily routine orders.  My relative was promoted to A/Cpl on 1 Jul 1916, with the event promulgated a few days later in the daily routine orders.  That record identifies the owning unit of the individual and, in my relative's case, it's listed as SAD.  Now, that's still a year prior to the crash of A5539 but it does link my relative to the unit from which that airframe made its last recorded flight.

 

I had hoped that my relative's later promotion to Sergeant, in 1917 (acting in January, substantive in July) would provide conclusive proof but, alas, the daily routine orders for those periods seem not to have survived.