F-105 photo collection

[72modeler]

Just stumbled upon this, and I think Thud fans will find these photos of interest- lots of good modeling projects among them!

Mike

 

http://www.aeroimage.com/MilAir/Fighter/EarlyFight/F105Thud/F105ThudPort.htm

 

[dnl42]

Thanks for pointing that out!

[Teeradej]

Excellent post war Thud shots. Thanks!

[e8n2]

Desert Fox has been on display at the Travis Air Museum for several decades now.  My Karma and Desert Fox were two of the subjects on Two Bobs decal sheet 72-079.

Later,

Dave

[busnproplinerfan]

Very nice pictures. I always was confused and thought the Thud was the two seater and the Thunderchief was the single seat, is that correct? I heard these were capable dogfighters, is that true?

[meindert]

Even more F-105 walk around photos can be seen on the IPMS NL site:

 

https://www.ipms.nl/walkarounds/walkaround-jets/565-walkaround-f105

 

[iainpeden]

3 hours ago, busnproplinerfan said:

Very nice pictures. I always was confused and thought the Thud was the two seater and the Thunderchief was the single seat, is that correct? I heard these were capable dogfighters, is that true?

The name of the F-105 was "Thunderchief" for all models; the F and G were 2-seaters. The F-105 was a strike aircraft which proved very effective low and fast; at low level and full speed it was essentially uncatchable. 

However a dog-fighter it was not.

A significant percentage were lost in Vietnam; if you can find the book "Thud Ridge" you'll get a much deeper insight into the war record of the aircraft.

 

It's a shame we haven't got one in the GB anymore.

[busnproplinerfan]

5 hours ago, iainpeden said:

The name of the F-105 was "Thunderchief" for all models; the F and G were 2-seaters. The F-105 was a strike aircraft which proved very effective low and fast; at low level and full speed it was essentially uncatchable. 

However a dog-fighter it was not.

A significant percentage were lost in Vietnam; if you can find the book "Thud Ridge" you'll get a much deeper insight into the war record of the aircraft.

 

It's a shame we haven't got one in the GB anymore.

Maybe Thud was more the nickname? Had a dog once and named him Thud. I guess a big plane is an easy target for ground forces, also the pilots weren't the best trained for dogfighting or just real cocky. Kinda surprised it kept the F designation and not use an A.

[iainpeden]

If you look at this table you'll see that the Thud  had over 20 air to air kills

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_aerial_victories_of_the_Vietnam_War

 

but the reason so many were lost was that they were the main strike aircraft going north in Vietnam while the Phantoms initially were the "fighters" - for the USAF anyway (sorry A-6, A-7 and F-4B/J drivers). According to Wiki they lost 382 in Vietnam out of 833 produced.

[JPuente54]

@busnproplinerfan, this is a long story; and has better explainers than I. The USAF/USN/USMC weren't really training for Air-to-Air combat. This lead to losses to the North Vietnamese Air Force. The services realized that they had to return to air combat training. This lead to the US Navy's "Top Gun" school and not sure what the air Force called theirs(the USMC used the "Top Gun" school). This lead to much greater returns on the US side. An "A" designation may have been a better choice. But "F" is sexier to the AF pilots. Yeah, sometimes the internal politics of a service(as a retired US Army soldier; all have loads of them) can be more important than a type designation.

Joe

[busnproplinerfan]

7 minutes ago, JPuente54 said:

@busnproplinerfan, this is a long story; and has better explainers than I. The USAF/USN/USMC weren't really training for Air-to-Air combat. This lead to losses to the North Vietnamese Air Force. The services realized that they had to return to air combat training. This lead to the US Navy's "Top Gun" school and not sure what the air Force called theirs(the USMC used the "Top Gun" school). This lead to much greater returns on the US side. An "A" designation may have been a better choice. But "F" is sexier to the AF pilots. Yeah, sometimes the internal politics of a service(as a retired US Army soldier; all have loads of them) can be more important than a type designation.

Joe

Mostly what I heard to with the origin of Top Gun. I know there's Maple Flag out here, don't know if it's still done. The USAF had one to, something flag I think. I heard a couple stories of internal politics, very stupid and messy. If it makes no sense, that's what we do.

[JPuente54]

Not sure what Canada name's theirs; but it sounds right. Two things came from the A-t-A schools. Guns were re-installed on fighter and ground attack aircraft; and fighters were designed for air maneuvering to fight other fighters.

Joe

[whiskey]

8 hours ago, busnproplinerfan said:

Mostly what I heard to with the origin of Top Gun. I know there's Maple Flag out here, don't know if it's still done. The USAF had one to, something flag I think. I heard a couple stories of internal politics, very stupid and messy. If it makes no sense, that's what we do.

Red Flag. A very large aerial exercise designed to closely simulate the first 10 missions an aircrew would experience going into combat. The 10 missions has historically been the deadliest and costliest time period during an air campaign so if the good guys can get those out of the way without casualties then chances are higher for a more positive outcome.

 

The Thunderchief has been said to earn the nickname "Thud" for only a few reasons, one of which being that it's such a large aircraft it supposedly made a thud noise when it landed. Another was the sound it supposedly made after crashing to the ground. There's a few more but I can't recall them. As far as I know the "F" designation was kept and not an "A" because it was in the line of Century Series Fighters. 

[busnproplinerfan]

10 minutes ago, whiskey said:

Red Flag. A very large aerial exercise designed to closely simulate the first 10 missions an aircrew would experience going into combat. The 10 missions has historically been the deadliest and costliest time period during an air campaign so if the good guys can get those out of the way without casualties then chances are higher for a more positive outcome.

 

The Thunderchief has been said to earn the nickname "Thud" for only a few reasons, one of which being that it's such a large aircraft it supposedly made a thud noise when it landed. Another was the sound it supposedly made after crashing to the ground. There's a few more but I can't recall them. As far as I know the "F" designation was kept and not an "A" because it was in the line of Century Series Fighters. 

Thanks, it hit me as soon as I read it(with a thud) I used to buy the Air Combat magazine years ago for the good pictures of Red Flag for all the older now gone aircraft.

[Phil Evans]

USAF Air Defence Command had a program called College Dart to provide TOPGUN type training.

[exdraken]

Designations/numbers  are a strange thing always... 

 

Also the F-22 was called F/A-22 for a short time...in order to be justified as a F!-117 replacement when (air to air ) threats to it were largely non existent  but congress....

[72modeler]

@exdraken,

 

Can't wait to see your Butterworth IIIO...what kit are you using? The Aussie Mirage III's are the most handsome of the breed, in my opinion.

Mike

Edited August 28, 2019 by 72modeler
corrected spelling

[mdauben]

22 hours ago, busnproplinerfan said:

Kinda surprised it kept the F designation and not use an A.

The Thunderchief was not the only plane originally designed as a fighter that found its niche as a bomber.  For example, during the Korean war when the F-84 was quickly shown to be outclassed by the Mig-15 as a fighter, it was used as a strike aircraft instead, a role it was much more successful in.  

[exdraken]

3 hours ago, mdauben said:

The Thunderchief was not the only plane originally designed as a fighter that found its niche as a bomber.  For example, during the Korean war when the F-84 was quickly shown to be outclassed by the Mig-15 as a fighter, it was used as a strike aircraft instead, a role it was much more successful in.  

Although the F-105 was mainly designed as a tactical nuclear bomber afaik, with a dedicated bomb-bay!

5 hours ago, 72modeler said:

@exdraken,

 

Can't wait to see your Butterworth IIIO...what kit are you using? The Aussie Mirage III's are the most handsome of the breed, in my opinion.

Mike

Wow! Talk of off-topic

Kinetic kit with Caracal Decals!

[exdraken]

On 8/27/2019 at 12:04 PM, iainpeden said:

The name of the F-105 was "Thunderchief" for all models; the F and G were 2-seaters. The F-105 was a strike aircraft which proved very effective low and fast; at low level and full speed it was essentially uncatchable. 

However a dog-fighter it was not.

A significant percentage were lost in Vietnam; if you can find the book "Thud Ridge" you'll get a much deeper insight into the war record of the aircraft.

 

It's a shame we haven't got one in the GB anymore.

The B model was EDIT: NOT a two-seater...

And there was a mod to some Ds with a bigger spine... was it called Thunderstick? 

Edited August 29, 2019 by exdraken
Obs.

[72modeler]

exdraken- not technically OT- I just noticed your current build list!

 

FYI, the F-105D had a larger nose to house a bigger and improved AN/ASG-19 Thunderstick I radar. Then later, this radar was upgraded and an inertial navigation system and other avionics were fitted in an enlarged dorsal spine known as Thunderstick II, which was said to give a 50'/15m CEP bomb accuracy. None of the Thunderstick II Thuds saw action in SEA, according to the references I have. Like the F-111, there wasn't much of a chance catching one down in the weeds with the AB lit. While not an agile beast, it was extremely stable at speed on the deck. A shame the Collings Foundation has been thwarted at every turn in their attempt to purchase one and restore it to flight.

Mike

[sinistervampire319]

6 hours ago, exdraken said:

The B model was also a two-seater...

And there was a mod to some Ds with a bigger spine... was it called Thunderstick? 

No B was only a single seater.

https://www.marchfield.org/aircraft/fighter/f-105b-thunderchief-republic/

 

Yes Thunderstick mod came later.

 

5 hours ago, 72modeler said:

A shame the Collings Foundation has been thwarted at every turn in their attempt to purchase one and restore it to flight.

The late Paul Allen has one too. But Congress shot down anyone having one in the warbird circuit because of it's ability to deliver Nuclear weapons. I know someone that was looking for engines for it.
Did you see when they finally pulled all the ones out of Lackland AFB. The Air Force spiked (Demilled) everyone of them.

[Giorgio N]

Regarding the designation of the Thunderchief, there is nothing unusual in its classification as a fighter and therefore the F mission designator. In 1947 the attack mission designator was cancelled from use and USAF combat types were classified as either fighters or bombers. Even with an internal bomb bay, the Thud was not really a bomber in the traditional sense, hence the logical use of the F designator.

It was only with the introduction of the 1962 Tri-Service designation system that the A designator for attack types came back into use with the USAF and it was not until the A-X program that an aircraft designed for the USAF carried the A designator (the A-9 and A-10). All other types with such designation were originally designed for the USN (that always used A to designate attack types) and most had been redesigned from their original USN system designation.

I should add that the A designator was not dropped by the USAF in the 1947-62 period but was used to indicate amphibian types... had the F-105 not been designated as a fighter, it would have not use been designated A-xx, as was not an amphibian, but rather B-yy as a bomber.

 

[mdauben]

17 hours ago, exdraken said:

Although the F-105 was mainly designed as a tactical nuclear bomber afaik, with a dedicated bomb-bay! 

I guess my knowledge of the Century Series is still a bit spotty.  I dint know the Thud had a bomb bay.  I'll just have to do some more reading, I suppose. 

Edited August 29, 2019 by mdauben

[72modeler]

2 hours ago, mdauben said:

I guess my knowledge of the Century Series is still a bit spotty.  I dint know the Thud had a bomb bay.  I'll just have to do some more reading, I suppose. 

I can heartily recommend getting Thunderchief- The Complete History of the Republic F-105, by Dennis R. Jenkins. The most complete and detailed Thud reference. I thought I knew a lot about the Thud, but this book really opened my eyes! (Thanks for the heads-up, @RidgeRunner!)

Mike

13 hours ago, sinistervampire319 said:

The late Paul Allen has one too. But Congress shot down anyone having one in the warbird circuit because of it's ability to deliver Nuclear weapons. I know someone that was looking for engines for it.
Did you see when they finally pulled all the ones out of Lackland AFB. The Air Force spiked (Demilled) everyone of them.

I was not aware that the late Paul Allen's group had one- sure hope they can cut through all the red tape and get her in the air. I believe the JF-105 that used to be at Lackland has gone to another museum collection, but wasn't aware that the remaining examples had been demilled- how  was this done? With all the post-911 security, it's a pain in the tail turret to get access to the base to measure/photograph the collection anymore, so I haven't been out there in ten years or so- afraid of what I will see when I do. Thanks for the information. (I'm still wee weed as a newt that they repainted their very rare RP-63G Pinball from its original international orange to silver lacquer!)

Mike