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Bullbasket

How accurate is this model?

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Posted (edited)

I came across this photo on another modelling  site quite by chance, and was immediately drawn to it. It's a 1/72nd scale model and I thought that I'd fancy doing it in 1/35th. I've never seen a Sherman 1 marked like this, so if any one in the know is looking, I'd like to know how accurate the cammo colours are, and what unit does it represent. To the point, is this an accurate depiction?

TIA.

4def0fd6-3c1c-4a42-a2e1-795d6257cba8.jpg

 

John.

Edited by Bullbasket
Forgot to post the photo.....doh!!

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The markings don't look right to me, based on the official positioning and types of markings.

 

The white ring looks like it should be the outside ring of the bridge classification plate, with should be higher and to the left. The battalion marking (the red/light blue square with 174) should be placed below the bridge classification plate. The triangular markings(the company marking) should be the other way up and placed on the sides and possibly rear of the turret. It also seems to be missing the unit the battalion is part of, a division(unlikely as these had red battalion markings, numbered 51-53) or independent brigade.

 

I've no idea what the "ST16/38" marking is for. It could be a marking for ship loading, although it looks too neat for this as they were quickly applied with whitewash.

 

In addition most British Shermans did not mount the 50cal machine gun on the cupola.

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Posted (edited)

Apparently the decals were a cock up from the Extratech kit,  and the Sherman itself should be the M4A4 (Sherman V in British parlance).  Not sure where the particulars for ALLA or it's vehicle census number are from, they aren't found in this listing:

http://mmpbooks.biz/mmp/tables/Vehicle_Names_V4.pdf

 

 

Markings indicate the 12th Armoured Regiment (Three Rivers Regiment) of the 1st Canadian Armoured Brigade.  The AoS colours are off, and should be dark blue over buff(brown).   As the middle regiment, it should have yellow tactical markings - not red.    The number within the tactical marking seems to have also been yellow.

 

3N1evjJ.png

 

Also missing is the formation sign of the 1st Canadian Armoured Brigade:

 

1bdevehsign.gif

 

Photo evidence does show the Canadians did employ the tactical marking for A squadron  as an upside down triangle and the centers do appear to be black.  For the loading codes Sicily landings,  Three Rivers had them beginning in the CC range:

 

3118412_efd66cceb4baa4995fc283d68e3c6eba

 

3118412_f07d09ddea653c2fe442598da6c81847

 

The other vehicle from the linked artwork,  ARRANT, it is associated with the Calgary regiment.  It would have tactical markings in blue.  Period photo can be found here:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/ontario-regiment-sherman-profiles-t103347-s40.html

 

 

 

For camouflage colours it's not definitely known.  War diaries all indicate that the Canadian tanks prepared for Sicily were repainted with a sand colour in disruptive pattern.  At least one of the regiments give the additional colour as black, or possibly some speculate it remained olive  (the colour it was delivered in).  

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

Edited by JackG

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Thanks for the replies. I suppose the long and the short of it is that the picture shouldn't be taken as being accurate, so I'll keep looking for a suitable subject for a Sherman 1.

Thanks again.

 

John.

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Posted (edited)

Actually the model posted at the start is not a complete write off.   Camouflage should be hard edge,  and shaped more like the artwork linked in post #3 from Niall.   If you like red tactical markings, then correctly that would be the Ontario Regiment, with AoS 173.

 

There is some credence to the earth brown camouflage.  You should read the full link from missinglynx I had posted.  There was another directive quoting the painting  instructions for "1 Canadian Infantry Division and Additional Troops" in preparing for the invasion of Sicily.  This the only instance I have seen an exact paint mentioned in military nomenclature - Shade no.4 (or SCC4) which is pretty exact.  All the other diaries refer to a sand shade - it's this that creates the uncertainty - are they talking about the same paint??  The few decent photos that exist do seem to imply camouflage was not actually that light,  until coated with heavy layers of dust.

spacer.png

 

regards,

Jack

Edited by JackG

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Sicily seems to have been something of a hotch-potch of colour schemes with vehicles coming from several places.  Mike Starmer says that Canadian units appear to have used a mixture of schemes in the official pattern and colours.  The scheme for Tunisia, still in force for the Mediterranean theatre when the Canadians prepared in the UK, would have permitted SCC2 brown over the OD base colour.  Mike also believes that Calgary Regt Shermans (i.e same Brigade) in Sicily may have been painted with SCC1A dark brown over the OD base in "elongated patches" along the lower edges of the hull and turret. 

 

So there seems to be some justification for the model colour scheme, either with SCC1A or SCC2 over OD.  The Canadians' willingness to go freestyle with markings is fairly well known.  Thre red-white-red ID flash was still in use in Sicily and into Italy but was by no means universal.

 

However, T447318 was not an M4A4 serial.

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8 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

T447318

I'm not seeing 447318 but 147318? Would that make a difference if I was right, or not? :unsure:

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Posted (edited)

There is two pages from Canadian War Diaries listing all the Canadian Shermans taken to Sicily.  Many are in the 1473XX range, but I don't see specifically 147318. 

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/ontario-regiment-sherman-profiles-t103347-s80.html

 

  Notice that the artwork has the last two digits as not very clear:

 

hjwSfZK.jpg

 

More particulars from the Extratech kit, it places ALLA in Italy with a date of November 1944.  Other searches reveal the discussed artwork is done by Jean Restayn for one of his published books.  Within said book there is suppose to be a photo of ALLA, but is described as being covered in mud and snow, and has no discernible camouflage.

 

regards,

Jack

Edited by JackG

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Thanks for that Jack, it's very useful. That partly obliterated number could so easily be 147318, and looking at the demarcation line, it's definitely hard. I think that I'll still go ahead with a build. Thanks again for all the info Jack.

 

John.

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It's possible 147318 was a replacement vehicle for TTR (Three Rivers Regiment). as it doesn't appear on the roster for the landings at Sicily. 

 

Of the three Canadian armour units, this regiment bore the brunt of the offensive, such that once Sicily was entirely liberated, TTR was put in reserve.  On September 3rd,  the landings on the Italian mainland begun, but it would not be til October 3rd that TTR was put back into the offensive,  landing via LST at Manfredonia - could be the source of the unknown loading code.

 

--------------------------

 

Now to the Sherman type, it should be mark V, but if I read correctly you want to use the Sherman I?   The only Commonwealth unit I've seen  associated with this type is 33rd Armoured Brigade in N.W.E.  There is an expanded listing here about halfway down the page:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/british-m4-hybrid-question-t92237.html

 

regards,

Jack

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I've opened a can of worms for myself. If it's not an M4, and Das says that the serial isn't an M4A4, what is Alla? I think I'll have to end up building "Helmdon".

 

John.

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ALLA very most likely is an M4A4 (Sherman V).   The partial serial falls within those serials the Canadians had in the Italian Theater.  Note that Das saw a different digit beginning the serial with 447318, while both the model and artwork have it 147318.  Opinion on the Jean Restayn illustration is  the M4A4.   Also,  units try to, and prefer, having all the same type of Sherman for logistical reasons (maintenance and spare parts).

 

... but yes,  HELMDON is a confirmed Sherman I.

 

 

regards,

 Jack

 

 

 

 

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Thanks Jack. Way to go!

 

John.

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On 8/27/2019 at 8:43 AM, stevehnz said:

I'm not seeing 447318 but 147318?

Apologies.  The angle of the model photo made it look like 44 to my failing eyes.  A noted above, 14378 is in the correct serial range for a Sherman V. 

 

As also noted, it was not Commonwealth practice to mix M4 engine types in the same Regiment and preferably not in the same Brigade, although the latter became more difficult in late 1944 as there were no more M4A4 available once the 1,600-odd retained in the US for training had been refurbished and shipped over.  I believe the last arrived in Sept 44.  So it seems indeed most likely that ALLA was a Sherman V and not a Sherman I as per the model in the first post.

 

Numerically the Sherman V was far more common than the Sherman I, with 7167 Vs supplied vs 2096 Is.  942 Sherman IIs and 5041 IIIs completed the UK shipments of 75mm M4s.  We also had 593 M4(105) and 1330 M4A1(76), the latter 2 serving mostly in Italy.  Not all of these numbers arrived, courtesy of the Kreigsmarine and Luftwaffe. 

 

The photo above of ALLA's hull front suggests SCC2 over OD as modelled at the top.  But noting how washed-out the OD looks, if you darken that back to what OD should look like then the brown quite possibly becomes SCC1A as noted by Mike Starmer on another Regiment's tanks in the same Brigade.  But the pattern is different here.

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Good post Das, and like you said initially, a 'hotch-potch of colour schemes with vehicles coming from several places.'  This is true  just looking at the varied Canadian equipment.   It's difficult enough trying to link the war diary descriptions to photos, but deciphering the colours an artist is portraying in a modern illustration just adds more uncertainty, particularly in this instance when no distinct camouflage is visible on the original b/w photo.

 

regards,

Jack

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