Dewoitine D.510 Dark Green camo Question

[Jim Barr]

I am starting the AMG Dewoitine D.510 of 3rd Sqn of GC II/1, the one with the skeleton on the fuselage, and it will have the dark green upper camouflage.  Was doing some research to come up with the color of the dark green and that is the problem. I have the very nice book “Les Ailes Dr Gloire No 13, D500-D510” by Patrick Marchand and Junko Takamori and there is a page on French Air Force colors and the color profile for the 3rd Sqd matches the color block labeled  Vert Fronce (Dark Green) with a FS # 34201 and a Gunze match of H80. H80 (Khaki Green) is a darkish brown green color but FS34201 is a medium darkish green khaki color. I have also come across WWII Vert Fonce as FS 34062, 34079, or 34096 with 34062 the only one I would call a dark green. Any idea on the real 3rd Sqd Camo color?

 

Question 2 – What color would the cockpit be painted?

 

Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks

Jim Barr

[Graham Boak]

Do you have a date for this aircraft?  The best reference I have is the recent work by Christian Ehregardt which states that metal aircraft were left uncamouflaged until Munich, and on 23rd September there was an instruction to paint all uppersurfaces "kaki".  This was superseded on 5th December 1938 with an instruction also calling for kaki uppersurfaces but "gris bleu clair" undersides.  The book however does not quote any reference for the precise hue of kaki, but I think that we can guarantee it was not the dark bottle-green often shown in profiles of this aircraft (or similar ones).

 

I would therefore assume that it was intended that the aircraft was not to be painted in Vert Fonce, but whether this was so is perhaps open to doubt?  Also, whether kaki was basically a dull brown or something akin to an olive green (perhaps a very olive green!) I cannot say.

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello Jim Barr

Interior was silver or NM, covered with clear varnish. Take a look at this webpage, complete with cockpit photos and pages from D.510 maintenance manual. About Vert Fonce: which GC II/1 D.510 are you building? In Dewoitine D.500 - D.510 - le chasseur a la française article (Aero Journal magazine) a colour profile of D.510 no 219 from 3rd Sqn. GC II/1 is shown in what appears to be dark gray top colour, which differs considerably from dark green on two other D.510 colour profiles on the same page. Also, a top colour on a profile of no 219 in publication you mentioned looks more like dark khaki or brown to me. Cheers

Jure

[Mike VE]

I agree with Graham. In the first phase of French pre-war camouflage green was reserved for day bombers and reconnaissance types. Fighters were to be Khaki. So in the absence of specific evidence that this particular machine did not follow the regulations I'd stick with khaki.

[Jim Barr]

I tend to agree from the answers I have received that Khaki seems to be the correct color, but the problem stays the same; it just changed to what color Khaki? A lot of different khakis out there.

 

Jure - I was planning on No. 265 (R-269), I have only been able to find photos of two 3 Sqn GC II/I D.510s, both in silver; one was No 265 Black 4, the other No 255 Black 1. I have never seen a photo of No 219 only many profiles. I decided on No 265 as the decals for that aircraft are included in the kit so I only have to change the skeleton and #4 on the tail to white.

 

Regards

Jim Barr

 

 

[Mike VE]

French colours seem hard to pin down. Illiad designs produce an Aircraft Colour Chart for the French Air Force in the Battle of France and the Armistice Air force. It is just three sheets of A4 card but is an excellent summary of French camo and markings. It has colour chips, including Kaki (a fairly dark olive but not very green) but I do not know what the basis is for these colours - if they found any documentation or samples I'm not aware of. Hataka do a paint set for Early WW2 French Air Force which seems to have colours pretty close to the Illiad chips.

 

There seems to be precious little evidence as to what French colours looked like - we have the names but not much else. As a result I think profile artists have to make it up. I would be fascinated if anyone knows otherwise.

[BS_w]

there  is an original camouflage colors chart at Air & Space Museum. This chart was printed in 39 and sended to each Headquarter to explain how use paint and what colors will be used.
I could seen several colours on wreckages(D520, MS 406, SE100, Po 63, Br 693, Late 298, H75)
- gris bleu foncé
- kaki
- brun
- gris bleu clair(the early was darker than later)
- chamois
- gris bleu(interior cockpit D520 "early", late 298, SE100, Potez 631)
- bleu de nuit(interior cockpit, D520 aft dec 39)

The first issue of normalization was 24th dec 35, 2nd dec 36.
Until the 3rd issue, dec 38, the army airplane will be overall kaki or tête de nègre(dark brown) according their day or night usage and navy airplane will be gris bleu foncé upperside and gris bleu clair underside.
the original documents and technical drawings about paint scheme of D520, Br 693, MS 406, LeO 451, Po 63-11:

- kaki
- gris bleu foncé blotches on kaki
- brun blotches on kaki
the delimitation of these blotches was blended
and the repartition of colours will be different from an airplane to the other.
- gris bleu clair

...

[Jure Miljevic]

To the list above one can add our recent discussion about Cauldron C.714 colours here, which probably slipped BS_w's memory. Jim Barr, I agree with you that in absence of photos of camouflaged 3rd Sqn of GC II/1 D.510s a photo of NM aircraft as a guide will have to suffice, with usual caveats of course. Probably nothing new to you, but camouflaged White 2 on a colour profile here has serial no 321 and the one on NM Black 2 on a photo here looks more like 345. Sorry to muddle waters even further. Cheers

Jure

[Yankee Air Pirate]

I have a copy of Aero Editions "Camouflage and markings Nr 1 French Air Force 1938-1945",  by Christian-Jacques Ehrengardt, published in 2000.  I don't know if it's still available.  It includes a seperate color chart.  This chart shows "Kaki" as a slightly greenish brown, worlds away from "Vert", which is a true dark green.  In fact it looks a lot like U S olive drab.  Given Mr. Ehrengardt's reputation, I'd go with his judgement.  Unfortunately, the only D.510 photograph in the book is bare metal.  If you can find the book, it's fascinating.

[Jim Barr]

BS_w - Some great information, just wish we could nail down a good reference for what the color of "Kkaki" was.

 

Jure - Thanks for the links especially the profile for White 2, have not seen that one!

 

Yankee Air Pirate - The book can still be found, it is just a bit expensive; starts at $50 and quickly goes up from there. Thanks for the description of the Khaki color.

 

Another question on D.510s fuselage antenna mast; photo and profiles show D.500 / 501 / 510s with no mast, one on top, one on bottom, or one on top and bottom. i.e. the photo of Black 4, (in silver) does not have any, but Black 2 (in silver) has one on top, and Black 1 (in silver) has top & bottom. What was the determining factor, time frame, upgrades, place in formation....?

 

Thanks for the help.

Jim Barr

 

 

[BS_w]

OTC 31 radio could be fitted on D500. the antenna emitter was above the fuselage and antenna receiver at bottom. Some airplane had the receiver only, so probably there was the bottom antenna only.
If the OTC 31 work as the RI 537, emitter and receiver could be use one unique antenna(top) by a switch, manual or automatic.
For the airplane without antenna, perhap's for the flight training do not need to use radio

[Jim Barr]

BS-w - Thanks so much for the mast information; so I take it a D.510 could have any of the four configurations depending on the circumstances of the flight?

 

Best Regards

Jim Barr

[Mike Starmer]

Aero Editions "Camouflage and markings Nr 1 French Air Force 1938-1945",  by Christian-Jacques Ehrengardt, published in 2000.   This book has colour images of a D.520 taken May 1940.  Although these are slightly muted they provide a fairly good idea of the colours used.

[Mike VE]

BS-w - Would this be the colour chart that you saw at the Air and Space museum? - http://memorial.flight.free.fr/

The page has a couple of pictures of the colour cards and then colour renditions. The browns all look too red to me - especially the kaki - but that could be my monitor. (and the Blue de Nuit looks just black) Otherwise they are not too far off the Illiad Designs card.

 

I would love to get the Christian-Jacques Ehrengardt 2000 book. I have his 2018 book but it says very little on the actual colours. I have searched eBay and amazon.fr. Any suggestions as to where else I might look?

[BS_w]

we don't k,ow how these colours are digitalized(photo, scan?), if the white balance was made before the shot and if a grey chart was used.
We can't be sure of accuracy of their chart

I hope I will go museum to see the original chart and photgrphy each color with a greyscale chart.

 

 

Bleu de nuit on D520 stiffener, the background is a grey neutral 18% and the white balance and exposure are defined on this background.

Humbrol 189 - molak midnihgt blue - molak gloss sea blue.

 

 

 

colors on 3D

 

 

 

and on tamiya model 1/48 (MoLak  paints=

 

 

and Breguet 693, 1/32 scale

 

at underside the grey shade is the "prime, surfacer 1200"

Edited August 15, 2019 by BS_w

[hacker]

planning to do this plane myself eventually. Part of my research is colours which l have here based on Tamyia paint range. Not full committed on this but here it is for reference if you chose to

 

French colours

underside grey one part XF-25 to one part XF-2

Topside Grey one part XF-53 to one part XF18

French Khaki two parts XF49 to one part XF-5

Brown XF-10

Dark Green X-5

 

Hacker and no l ain't colour blind 

[Mike VE]

Great images, BS-w. Thanks.

[zigster]

Nice chart, BS_w! Thanks!

Looking at your models, cammo is very close to that Caudron wing mentioned.

Nice Breguet btw. Love that plane, done an old Heller years ago :-)

Zig

[dnl42]

I stumbled upon this photo of a Vichy D.520 in 1941 Greece.

 

HTH

-- 

dnl