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Nearlymen

Chinese Harbin H-5 (IL28) Queries ?

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On a bit of a whim I purchased the new Bobcat 1/48 IL28T kit and really liked the look of building it as the Harbin H5 decal option in the kit. This particular option has torpedoes under the wings and wing tip tanks which looked a great combination ! But..........

This is where things started to go a bit fuzzy ! 

 

First off I can find no pics of Chinese H5's carrying torpedoes ? I know they did but no pics ?

 

I noticed that although the painting guide shows wing tip tanks, within the instructions is a note saying to omit the tanks on the chinese versions which is a slight contradiction. So did any H5's ever have wing tip tanks ? Again I can find no pics ?

 

The tail turret in the kit is a std russian ball turret as fitted to the IL28, but as far as I can see the H5 had a turret design borrowed from a TU-16 ? Did any chinese airframes have the std IL28 tail turret ?

 

The colour scheme says white/silver, I'm guessing that some BW photos have mistaken silver for white, as again I can only find one pic of a chinese airframe in white, any clarification on this would be much appreciated !

 

I have a feeling that my chosen option may not be quite correct, i.e. the wing tip tanks and the tail turret type, colour etc but I'm hoping answers to these queries might be forthcoming on this website ! So then chaps thinking caps on and over to you !

 

Cheerio

 

Clive

 

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Hello Clive,

 

I have a book with photos of both Romanian and Albanian air force Harbins. All aircraft in the photos have that TU-16 style gun turret. None of the planes have tip tanks and they have the "short" engine cowlings and "small" main wheels just like the kit does.

 

I started my kit a couple of weeks ago and it seems to be very accurate. I checked the measurements and surface detailing against factory drawings. So far I am very happy with it. The fin needs a further check as it seems to sit in a way that the leading edge rises in a too shallow angle. The wings require a lot of work: Il-28 has straight wing when viewed from the front; not gull wing. In addition the wing halves were warped in my example. I'm going to build a Finnish Air Force IL-28R so I have been modifying the engine condolas (they should be 3,5 millimeters longer) and building larger main wheels.

 

Cheers,

Antti

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China appears to have received several hundred Soviet-built Il-28s in the 1950s before they started manufacturing the H-5, so it’s likely that any torpedo carrying aircraft were Soviet.   Later China adopted their own torpedos with the underwing pylon mount.

 

Antti - where does the additional length come in on the Il-28R nacelles?  Do you have any drawings?

 

Thanks!

Edited by Jordi

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Good morning all,

 

the main landing gear bay in Il-28R is both longer and wider. In 1/48 scale the main wheel diameter is 26,25 millimeters. It is easiest if you cut the engine condola part at the front of main landing gear bay and then insert plastic strip (3,5 millimeters in my model) between the two pieces. The engine condola length after the modification should be 163 millimeters. Of course a "back up plate" is required on the inner side.  I cut the main landing gear bay "roof" at the front as well so I didn't destroy the detailing and to keep the width correct.

 

spacer.png

 

Here is the port engine after these modifications. I only realized well after when we last talked about Il-28s that the condola is also longer.

 

spacer.png

 

Here are the most accurate drawings for Il-28 and Il-28R made by a well known Finnish aviation historian Klaus Niska. They match perfectly with factory data. I know the methods Mr Niska is using and he makes his drawings the hard way. He doesn't use any b****hit Google software. The upper one is Il-28 and lower is an Il-28R. The engine condola length is 159,5 millimeters for Il-28.

 

Cheers,

Antti

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Interesting findings Antti!

Is the fuseage also lengthed then?

The drawing seems to suggest so ....

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6 hours ago, exdraken said:

Interesting findings Antti!

Is the fuseage also lengthed then?

The drawing seems to suggest so ....

No, the fuselage is identical (at least in those drawings).  Look where the vertical lines intersect the two fuselages - identical.

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1 hour ago, Jordi said:

No, the fuselage is identical (at least in those drawings).  Look where the vertical lines intersect the two fuselages - identical.

You are right of course!

Seems I was already tired yesterday ! ;)

 

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Good Morning Gents,

 

the length of the fuselage should be exactly the same in both pictures. That's why I added those yellow lines to show that. If they are not that's because of my poor photography...

 

Note also that the published overall length of an Il-28 or Il-28R is measured from the tip of the nose down to the ball turret surface.

 

Cheers,

Antti

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On 8/10/2019 at 9:19 PM, Nearlymen said:

I noticed that although the painting guide shows wing tip tanks, within the instructions is a note saying to omit the tanks on the chinese versions which is a slight contradiction. So did any H5's ever have wing tip tanks ? Again I can find no pics ?

Hi Clive,

 

Looking from quite recent Il-28 book by Gordon and Komissarov there is no pictures of H-5s with either tip tanks nor torpedoes. This does not mean thet they could have been existing but at least photo proof seems to be not available.

 

Cheers,

 

AaCee

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Hi AaCee

Yep I've got that book, and frustratingly there are no pics, but it does say some early IL28T were supplied to the chinese before they stated to build them as the H5 and the wings were plumbed for tanks I believe. Alas though the lack of pics is a downer, but hey ho its a challenge ! I think I'll build it with the wing mounted torpedoes and wing tip tanks.....that way a photo is bound to turn up showing they never had them LOL !!

 

Cheerio

 

Clive

 

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On 8/20/2019 at 8:04 AM, Nearlymen said:

Hi AaCee

Yep I've got that book, and frustratingly there are no pics, but it does say some early IL28T were supplied to the chinese before they stated to build them as the H5 and the wings were plumbed for tanks I believe. Alas though the lack of pics is a downer, but hey ho its a challenge ! I think I'll build it with the wing mounted torpedoes and wing tip tanks.....that way a photo is bound to turn up showing they never had them LOL !!

 

Cheerio

 

Clive

 

Indeed, Soviet build "standard" Il-28 hadn't the wings plumbed for the wingtip tanks, as these were used only in the recce Il-28Rs ( and these had the bigger wheels with wider engine nacelles...

Serial Soviet Il-28 weren't equipped with the wingtip tanks (only some of the different T prototypes over the years) .There were 4-5 test Il-28T configurations, but at the end only the one looking like the standard bomber saw service ( without tip tanks, standard underbelly radome and smaller RAT rocket propelled torpedoes installed only in the standard sized bomb bay).

China may of course build some local developments, but, unfortunately till now there aren't any photos available.

 

Sadly, I was only able to find references for few of the Chinese serials provided - and I am really not happy with the results:

83002 is definitively a STANDARD bomber H-5 with the Tu-16 style turret ( so it could be assumed that 82015, 83006 and 80106 will be similar)...then we have the green/blue camouflaged "white 1615" - this is indeed a STANDARD bomber Il-28...not a maritime bird with tip tanks and torpedoes. 1615 has been illustrated many years ago as profile in a Taiwanese publication "Aircraft of the Chinese civil War", and there is also an identical sister-ship 1618 that was also represented many times by different artists as profile in different publications, and also by Trumpeter in 1/72 scale ....always as STANDARD bomber. Now, for the first time, this same bird is represented as torpedo launch platform with tip tanks and external armament ...belonging to a reconnaissance regiment (?)...oh wonder! 

There is a "simple" logic:

- We know that China obtained "standard" bombers from the USSR.

- We don't know, if there were (any) Soviet made serial Il-28Ts delivered to China but, if yes, they didn't had wingtip tanks nor external weapons ( exactly like the Indonesian ones).

- We know that there were recce Il-28Rs delivered to China (with bigger nacelles and wingtip tanks) but would it make any sense to convert these aircraft into torpedo bombers? Maybe by adding underwing pylons like depicted in the kit? It would be really groundbreaking to get a single picture of such a modification, if such was ever made, of course...

- If China later developed a special, own torpedo variant, then -logically- the locally build, new H-5s (the ones with the Tu-16 turret) would be used as base.

We know for example that some Chinese (recce) HZ-5s had underwing fuel tanks instead of wingtip tanks. Anyway, the Chinese H-5s were slightly faster and had a longer range than their Soviet ancestors, due to different production solutions developed in the Harbin factory..

IMHO, in case of the Chinese birds some artistic licence has been taken :(  :(  :(

 

Many museum birds in China were repainted in fantasy camouflages for display and maybe also reserialled - but here we have at least a H-5 with an underwing pylon (!!!) - the question is: is this a H-5 torpedo bomber or simply a HZ-5 reconnaissance variant ?

 spacer.png

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-JY5pIWiAVQY/Tyq29wPRbxI/AAAAAAAAA14/3xBHgfCvzgc/s1600/3-20080325125322560.jpg

 

Here is a genuine Chinese Il-28, yellow 0195, in green/blue camo, again a standard bomber, seen in Taiwan after a successful defection - note the damage under the nose (a landing accident?- collapsed nosewheel? ) ...I am pretty sure that this photo was used as basis for all the Beagle profiles with "pointy" nose that appeared during decades in many publications:

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http://www.easternorbat.com/assets/images/PLAAF_IL-28_defection_01.png

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http://taiwanairpower.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/il28b.jpg

 

In Quingdao Museum, there is a genuine Navy Il-28 in aluminium finish coded 80602 and another bird with wing-tip tanks, unfortunately without visible serial - and this is a standard recce bird, not a torpedo aircraft.

 

However, here are some interesting shots of operational camouflaged BOMBER PLAAF Il-28s:  :)

(look also at the close-up of the Il-28 turret on the third photo - the H-5 had a different turret, borrowed from the Tu-16)

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10487684_800.jpg

10487952_800.jpg

 

 

In case of the Soviet birds the codes proposed in the box represent some of the prototypes, and some "serial" Ts, but ,in this case, these should be build without the external "add-ons"

 

Here, "red 4" the first Il-28T prototype with wingtip tanks and longer bomb bay:

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Il-28T1_02.jpg

 

...then "blue 22" (one of the kits options), the second prototype with new nose glazing (note the round panel on the nose !!!!!) and without tip tanks. This was the test-bed for external racks for conventional torpedoes and RAT-52s. 

The test results were unfortunately disappointing, the aircraft being slow, unstable and difficult to fly:

spacer.png

Il-28T2_03.jpg

Il-28T2_02.jpg

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...finally, a production standard, operational Il-28T  "red 16" (one of the kit options) , with RAT-52 carried internally only: 

Il-28T3_01.jpg

spacer.png

 

 

Greetings

Diego

Hi-Decal

Edited by Diego

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Hello Diego,

 

interesting (and probably rare) photos. Thank you for sharing🙂

 

I was looking at the close up of the turret and to my eye it sees like an ordinary "Il-28" tail turret. I have been checking the Bobcat kit and found out that the wing is at correct position for a bomber or Il-28R versions.

 

Cheers,

Antti

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Hello Antti,

Indeed, the camouflaged turret is a standard one - this is just that makes the photo interesting :)

Photos of (early) operational Il-28s in Chinese service (and especially the camouflaged ones)  are very rare indeed...

Your confirmation of the wing placement is a very welcome information as it confirms that the kit dimensions are very good, if you want to make a standard serial bomber/torpedo/elint/nuclear aircraft.

To make a correct recce bird, you will unfortunately need new nacelles, and the conversion work you are just doing is simply fabulous!

More news: Eduard is preparing a mask set as well as two etched metal sets for the Beagle....and there is a chance that a producer of high quality resin conversions present on this forum could also be interested in making the target towing equipment for Finnish Beagles :)

 

Greetings

Diego

Edited by Diego

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1 hour ago, Diego said:

In Quingdao Museum, there is a genuine Navy Il-28/H-5 in aluminium finish coded 80602 and another bird with wing-tip tanks, unfortunately without visible serial - and this is a standard recce bird, not a torpedo aircraft.

Hi Diego,

 

It seems to be 82025: https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/556973

 

As you said Chinese museum airframes are not the most reliable source for camouflages and serials.

 

Cheers,

 

AaCee

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2 hours ago, Diego said:

Hello Antti,

 

Your confirmation of the wing placement is a very welcome information as it confirms that the kit dimensions are very good, if you want to make a standard serial bomber/torpedo/elint/nuclear aircraft.

To make a correct recce bird, you will unfortunately need new nacelles, and the conversion work you are just doing is simply fabulous!

More news: Eduard is preparing a mask set as well as two etched metal sets for the Beagle....and there is a chance that a producer of high quality resin conversions present on this forum could also be interested in making the target towing equipment for Finnish Beagles :)

 

Greetings

Diego

Thank you Diego🙂

 

The conversion is actually very simple. Planning is the most time consuming part of the operation.

 

I've already scratch built a "towing tail"; one Monogram Hellcat bomb and one Airfix Hunter drop tank. Some plastic sheet, rod and a piece of thin metal plate. There is one or two details left I must change but that's 10 minutes of work. Here is the towing tail at present.

 

spacer.png 

 

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I also replaced the kit's guns with two pieces of brass tube. As the caliber is 23 mm I widened the muzzles using a 0,5 mm (0,47 mm) drill bit. The fit of the turret is exceptionally good and I'm going to keep it and the guns movable. Note the accordion-like shield in the gun slot.

 

Cheers,

Antti

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Hi Antti,

 

...this is simply gorgeous - a fantastic work. Would it be possible for you to start an "in progress" tread for your Il-28R, as I am 100% sure that many will follow the building process with open mouths ( like myself ;) ) ? 

 

Greetings

Diego

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Thanks for the extra info, very illuminating ! Still confusing though, but I guess its the old adage 'If theres no photo, then it didn't happen' ! LOL ! If any more info turns up then please post as I'm sure others are curious as well.

 

All the best

 

Clive

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On 8/22/2019 at 10:17 AM, Nearlymen said:

Thanks for the extra info, very illuminating ! Still confusing though, but I guess its the old adage 'If theres no photo, then it didn't happen' ! LOL ! If any more info turns up then please post as I'm sure others are curious as well.

 

Hi Clive,

Well, "it happened", but in a slightly different configuration:

Chinese produced H-5 with "Tu-16 turret", without wing tip tanks, but with 2 Yu-2s (RAT-52) under the wings, in NMF (but overall anti-corrosion white could be also possible). 

Here we have something highly interesting, a PLA Navy HD-5 83001 with pylons, exposed in Qindao, with all the a.m. features...  

...and, by pure coincidence ;), Bobcat even included decals for several of her sister ships (83002, 83006, 82015, 80106) so you can use the decals from the kit...now, you only need to have the Tu-16 turret.

 

83848_1546391969.jpg

https://cdn.jetphotos.com/full/6/83848_1546391969.jpg

 

Of course, you can equip this H-5 with two Yu-2, the Chinese, modernized version of the RAT-52:

spacer.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Yu-2_Torpedo.jpg

...that was operational between the early 1970s and the mid 1980s.

 

Bobcat Il-28 model is generally very exact, so I am pretty sure that the designers have done their homework correctly, even if they have mixed up various Il-28T prototypes.  For "blue 22", the only one with external torpedo racks, you will need a new nose, as seen on the pics above - but the other proposed operational Soviet versions could be build "from the box"... of course without externally mounted weapons or tip tanks. 

As all Il-28 kits (Airfix, Tamiya, Bilek, Italeri, Trumpeter) included the tip tanks, I suppose that most people were convinced that these were simply "interchangeable", like on the Northrop F-5A or Lockheed F-104 for example (fuel tanks or Sidewinders) ...but, as you said it, the kit instructions got it (nearly) right. No tanks on Chinese birds (...only a new tail turret).

I think that, later, the decals designers wanted to make things even simpler:  As the kit is labelled as "Il-28T", their task was to include as many as possible Soviet and Chinese "torpedo carriers" on the sheet - therefore someone created a color profile drawing of the perfect Il-28T by putting all features of the different versions together on one airframe...et voilà! 

 

BTW: 1/72nd scale modeller can now build an accurate HD-5, as Trumpeter released the H-5 (with the "Tu-16" turret), and nice Yu-2 (RAT-52s) are enclosed in Trumpeter's new Q-5 Fantan boxings.

 

Greetings

Diego

Edited by Diego

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Was that the Chinese aircraft that didn't carry tip tanks or did no bombers carry them - or did the Soviet IL28s carry them?

Still on the Soviet Beagles were the natural metal or painted silver, all the photos seem to show a distinct lack of tonal variation across the airframe?

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11 hours ago, Stressy said:

Was that the Chinese aircraft that didn't carry tip tanks or did no bombers carry them - or did the Soviet IL28s carry them?

Still on the Soviet Beagles were the natural metal or painted silver, all the photos seem to show a distinct lack of tonal variation across the airframe?

Il-28s in Soviet and foreign service: 

 

- Only the Soviet build Il-28R (recce version) carried the tip tanks. You could recognize immediately a recce Beagle at her tip tanks.

- The "vanilla" Il-28 bomber versions were not plumbed to carry the tip tanks so never carried them.

- Some ELINT versions (Il-28 RTR) carried electronic pods on their wingtip that had a similar form to the tip tanks.

 

Il-28 & H-5 in Chinese service: 

 

The above comments apply of course also to the Soviet build Il-28s in Chinese service., as China received several hundred Il-28s and Il-28Rs from the USSR  before their relations' break.

 

Later, China also build a modified copy of the Il-28 under the designation H-5.

These aircraft could be recognized by their rear turret taken from Tu-16, also build in China (a weight saving and commonality measure) 

The H-5 wings' structure was also modified and these parts were build using some different construction and assembly methods than their Soviet ancestors. This process was apparently more complicated than the Soviet one,  but made their wings lighter and stronger.

Again, the Chinese H-5 bombers didn't carry tip tanks, and the Chinese recce version HZ-5 carried additional fuel tanks only on pylons under their wings.

 

Paint:

 

Like many Soviet aircraft from the 1950s-60s, the Il-28s were painted with a clear lacquer with aluminium powder added.

An interesting fact concerning the Il-28 is that the airframe had the maintenance stencils already stamped on the different panels during the production process and later filled with paint.

 

Greetings

Diego

Edited by Diego

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Thanks for that, at least I get to rip the tanks off while its still in primer  and not find out till after I'd finished!

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Hello all,

 

as Diego said, Il-28s were usually painted with light aluminium coloured paint. Photos show that Finnish Beagles were very "silvery" in colour during the 1960s and early 1970s. From mid 1970s on the three Il-28Rs looked more darker and duller when the only Il-28 bomber looked still "silvery". All Il-28s returned to USSR for a Total Overhaul after every 200 flying hours. This meant that the planes were also re-painted. I think that the different look has something to do with the fact that Il-28 was always overhauled at Tsheljabinsk factory and Il-28Rs at different location.

 

Those stamped service markings are an example of clever Soviet thinking: you can re-paint an aircraft without losing the vital service information. On export versions painted stencils were used (black / yellow) and contrary to those stamped ones, these were in English.

 

Cheers,

Antti

 

PS: Diego, I will start a WIP very soon. Stay tuned😉

 

Cheers,

Antti

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Thank you Antti. You've been very helpful to me in (almost) completing what I'd expected to be a sraight foward build of the Italeri 1/72 version of the Beagle.

 

Andy 

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