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Patrik

Hawker Turret Demon rear cockpit

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Preparing for one of my next builds, I compared - out of pure curiosity - the fuselage of Kora 1/72 Turret Demon with the Granger drawings and was badly surprised by the difference in the length of the rear cockpit cutout.

 

DSC-0180.jpg

 

Because the Kora Hart family seems to me to be quite well researched, I dug out the Aviation News drawings (Colin Owen). Principally the same difference, however the drawings are evidently the worst of all three I have.

 

DSC-0194.jpg

 

I took out the Mushroom drawings (very nice) and voila, seems that Kora guys used either the Mushroom drawings or some analogical source during the kit construction.

 

DSC-0197.jpg

 

OK, I decided to make some measurements of the real stuff using the photographic references, and guess what? Granger is once again right. Only this time it is Alfred, not Hermione.

The correction is not going to be difficult, but I thought sharing the info with you would do no harm.

 

Edited by Patrik

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Patrik,

 

Looking at the fuselage half and the drawings you have posted, I think I would be more concerned with the excess length of the nose and  rear fuselage, as it also appears the location of the horizontal stabilizer/rear fuselage length  on the kit is not right. Looks the rear fuselage is too long? Neat-looking  Demon variant, though! Do you have the Airfix kit? If so, how do the cockpit locations and overall length match the drawings you have? Just curious, especially as Airfix is re-releasing their 1/72 Demon and Bulldog kits.

Mike

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@72modeler The fuselage is fine, Mike. It is spot on the Granger drawings and they are spot on the 29 ft 7 in length, quoted for the Demon. It is: A. partly the central prospective playing the trick above, and B. mainly the fact that the Mushroom drawings are somehow lacking in the overall length, more than on feet😟. Do not ask me why, however thanks a lot for spotting it. Fortunately, the Kora kit seems to be inspired by it just in the rear cockpit area (and most probably in the panel lines). Nevertheless, I will be far more careful when using the Mushroom drawings from now on.

I had the Airfix Demon kit, but sold it many years ago. I would not remember, if the dimensions were right, though. If you need THE Demon, look for the Aeroclub kit. Short run with white metal parts, but builds into real beauty.

 

DSC-0195.jpg

 

@Graham Boak The turret looks lovely, in my opinion.

 

DSC-0190.jpg

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Patrik,

 

Whew! Glad to hear the kit's dimensions are OK. I have the Aeroclub and Airfix Demon kits, plus a Model Alliance decal sheet. I will be curious to see how the molds have held up when Airfix re-releases their Demon, Bulldog, and Heron kits - bet the decals will be a lot nicer! I think there are many out there that would like new-tools of their classic kits, but it is what it is. Guess I might need to get the Kora kit, but they are soooo pricey here across the pond! Looking forward to seeing how your build progresses, and thank you for taking the time to reply.

Mike

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I have that Kora Turret Demon kit - thank you for pointing this out! It doesn't look too hard to fix. I may kit bash this kit with one of my Aeroclub Hart/Audaxes, and just use the fuselage as a sort of conversion piece (and whatever other bits and bobs I fancy using from the Kora kit). One thing I love about the old Aeroclub Hart series is the one piece lower wing - makes it much easier to get the dihedral and wing placement correct.

 

Regards,

 

Jason

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Blimey! So far I have not considered scratchbuilding the more or less invisible interior part of the turret. After seeing these photos, I will have to.

Thank you, Pete.

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On 8/10/2019 at 6:41 PM, Patrik said:

Preparing for one of my next builds, I compared - out of pure curiosity - the fuselage of Kora 1/72 Turret Demon with the Granger drawings and was badly surprised by the difference in the length of the rear cockpit cutout.

 

DSC-0180.jpg

 

Because the Kora Hart family seems to me to be quite well researched, I dug out the Aviation News drawings (Colin Owen). Principally the same difference, however the drawings are evidently the worst of all three I have.

 

DSC-0194.jpg

 

I took out the Mushroom drawings (very nice) and voila, seems that Kora guys used either the Mushroom drawings or some analogical source during the kit construction.

 

DSC-0197.jpg

 

OK, I decided to make some measurements of the real stuff using the photographic references, and guess what? Granger is once again right. Only this time it is Alfred, not Hermione.

The correction is not going to be difficult, but I thought sharing the info with you would do no harm.

 

Hello!

Could you please inform me in which publication i can Granger drawings?

Thanks!

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They are in a book published in 1993 but which can usually be found with a little searching of second-hand aviation book stores

 

Title: On Silver Wings: RAF Biplane Fighters Between the Wars

Authors: Alec Lumsden and Owen Thetford

Published by Osprey Publishing (1993)

ISBN 10: 1855323745 

ISBN 13: 9781855323742

 

Edited by Work In Progress

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Beware of what many miss, which is that the Demon rear fuselage has a lower top line than that of the Hart.  The top line of the Hart fuselage is a smooth curve, whereas that of the Demon steps down aft of the gunner's position.  Getting this right may be influencing the apparent size of the gunner's cutout.

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Patric

 

I have just noticed this discussion. I have been working on a drawing of the Demon. Unfortunately there are no readily available engineering drawings so I've been working from the Hawker cutaway side views and photos at a large scale. This discussion caused me to ponder the differences in the quoted overall length.

 

I haven't come across the primary source that quotes 29' 7" for the length. The Hart (T) and the 'Hart II' are both given an overall length of 29' 4" (rigging diagram & cross section respectively). Unfortunately the smattering of Demon manual I have access to doesn't include overall all length....however the cutaway side view aligned perfectly with the Hart drawing so I think it is safe to conclude the overall length is the same....but wait, there is more:

 

The dimension in the Hart drawings are taken from the outer edge of the hucks starter tube on the prop, through to the rudder training edge. However the Australian Demons have a tail light and rudder trim tab that extends beyond the rudder trailing edge. According to my drawing the tail light adds another 2.6" to the length (take this as approx).

This would also make the length in the Granger Demon drawing correct (approx.) because he takes the dimension to the edge of the tail light. However the more useful dimension would be the 29' 4".

 

For what its worth, my drawing matches up the Granger drawing in regards to the fuselage depth, the cockpit locations, wing locations and undercarriage geometry.

I think you're pretty safe to reference the Granger drawing.

 

Good luck with your build.

 

Juanita

 

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The Granger drawing shows a smooth curve from the engine cowling to the tail (discounting the cockpit).  This is wrong, because there is a step down with the later gunner's position, as can be seen in photos of the type.  I first was alerted to this in conversations with John Adams.  I'm not sure what drawings he has that may identify this, but the Kora fuselage matches the photographs.

 

Personally I previously would have gone with the Granger in principle, but today I found a drawing by him of the Oxford with no representation of the bombbay.  Homer nods, as they say.

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These may help. They are part of some development drawings for the Hawker range, I've been working on. These are based on Hawker originals which I found in a drawer in a museum storage facility. I find that the frames for the Hart variants do not differ but the rudder embellishments do. The Demon fuselage top deck is approx 3" lower at the peak, just aft of the gunners cut out.

 

John

 

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Of note in the two pictures, besides the rear decking change and the second forwards firing gun on the Demon, are the immediate differences of the wheels. The Hind has the 15" wheels and the Demon has the 19" wheels.

 The 15" braked wheels are normally found on later airframes with tail wheels. The 19" wheels as originally fitted to the early types with a tail skid can also be seen on some aircraft with a tail wheel. On these aircraft the 19" wheels are of the 'Braked' type.

 

John

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Two days away and we have a genuine research thread here, Thanks a lot to all of you for your invaluable inputs.

 

@Juanita I have started another thread on a related issue some time ago, so if you feel you can contribute, I will be happy to hear from you.

 

@John Aero John, would it be safe to assume that the frame of the radial-engine members of the Hart family was identical in the same way as the frame of their in-line engine siblings?

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