Question about Ha-1109 in Spanish service: did it serve in Spanish Morocco?

[28ZComeback]

I am excited about the new Ha-1109 conversion for the Tamiya Bf-109G. Did the Ha-1109 serve in the colonies?? Thank you and please excuse my ignorance.

Edited August 8, 2019 by 28ZComeback
Sp

[stevehnz]

I'm pretty sure the answer is yes, but others may be able to confirm (or othrwise) that.

Steve.

[exdraken]

just a quick check, some information here:

 

https://elgrancapitan.org/foro/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=19285

the Ha-1109 was soon upgraded to the Ha-1112, that was again upgraded with Merlin motors. Those seem to have been based in Gando (Granda) y El Aiun (West Sahara)  and were sued in the IFNI conflict.

 

hope to find out more soon!

 

[28ZComeback]

Thank you all. Thinking of a RLM grey Ha1109 with Tamiya kit. 

[exdraken]

ah! SBS released a conversion set for the Tamiya kit!

https://sbsmodel.com/model/SBS-48060/hispano-ha-1109-1112-k.1l-tripala

 

@Artie do you have any input or sources were the Ha-1109 and its use is explained?

 

thanks!

 

 

 

 

[Graham Boak]

Definitely yes, see the recent Helion book Showdown in Western Sahara.

 

I strongly suspect that the Spanish colour was a more neutral light grey than the yellower/greener RLM 02.

 

Edit:  Apologies, I was thinking of the HA1112.  The book is still worth reading.

Edited August 13, 2019 by Graham Boak

[28ZComeback]

15 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Definitely yes, see the recent Helion book Showdown in Western Sahara.

 

I strongly suspect that the Spanish colour was a more neutral light grey than the yellower/greener RLM 02.

I didn’t know about the book. That is great news. 

[Graham Boak]

Helion do a wide range of books on fairly exotic subjects that don't seem to get much publicity, which is a shame.

 

[28ZComeback]

I found a profile of a Ha1109 in overall grey and seems to have reached the unit level. 

Edited August 11, 2019 by 28ZComeback

[Artie]

Sad to be the rain in your parade, but the 1109 didn't see any action over the Spanish Sahara. They were replaced by the RR engined 1112 a few years before the war. In fact, the 1112s were re-engined 1109s. Thay reached unit level, but that was all. 

Regarding the colour, Barrack Grey is a generic name given to a wide range of shades. From simethinh similar to RLM02 to a darker RLM66 lookalike. Never try to be very strict when talking about spanish air force  colours during those years. The 1109s were painted in a blueish tone of grey. By tge way, din't trust the museum example, it's painted in the wrong colour.  Finally, just an historical hint: spanish overseas territories weren't considered to be colonies, but full right provinces.

The only "fighting" they saw was during the filming of the movie "Star of Africa", about Marseille's life

Best regards.

Edited August 13, 2019 by Artie

[28ZComeback]

Thank you Artie!! I think I read somewhere that the 1109 was not a great succcess. Thank you again. 

[exdraken]

Thanks as well for all additional info!

@Artie

By the way, what is the difference between a 1109 and and not reengined 1112? 1112K etc...

Thanks 

[Artie]

JHola Werner..!!!

These are, give or take, the main differences.

HA 1109 J1L: Original Bf109G2 airframe, Hispano Suiza 12Z88 engine and Escher-Wyss propeller. It was the first prototype.

HA 1109 K1L: de Havilland Hydramatic propeller, 20mm Hispano guns and 80mm rockets.

65 built, later renaned HA 1112K1L

HA 1109 M1L: Merlin engined first prototype. One built.

HA 1110 M1L: two seater trainer, Hispano Suiza engine. One built.

HA 1111 K1L: The same prototype but fitted with wingtip fuel tanks.

HA 1112 M1L: The final version and the first to be nicknamed Buchón. Merlin engine, 20mm guns and rocket launchers. 172 built.

HA 1112 M4L: two seater trainer,  Merlin engine. Two built.

 

That's a brief list of differences....hope you'll fibd them useful...

Best regards

 

 

[28ZComeback]

Thank you. No Ha1112K1L’s in the Western Sahara. 

Edited August 13, 2019 by 28ZComeback

[Artie]

AbsoAbsolutely none.  They were either scrapped or re-engined by 1958, when the war began.

[exdraken]

5 hours ago, Artie said:

JHola Werner..!!!

These are, give or take, the main differences.

HA 1109 J1L: Original Bf109G2 airframe, Hispano Suiza 12Z88 engine and Escher-Wyss propeller. It was the first prototype.

HA 1109 K1L: de Havilland Hydramatic propeller, 20mm Hispano guns and 80mm rockets.

65 built, later renaned HA 1112K1L

HA 1109 M1L: Merlin engined first prototype. One built.

HA 1110 M1L: two seater trainer, Hispano Suiza engine. One built.

HA 1111 K1L: The same prototype but fitted with wingtip fuel tanks.

HA 1112 M1L: The final version and the first to be nicknamed Buchón. Merlin engine, 20mm guns and rocket launchers. 172 built.

HA 1112 M4L: two seater trainer,  Merlin engine. Two built.

 

That's a brief list of differences....hope you'll fibd them useful...

Best regards

 

 

so HA 1109 K1L =  HA 1112K1L, just at a later time and before 1958

 

[stevehnz]

On 8/13/2019 at 6:19 PM, Artie said:

The only "fighting" they saw was during the filming of the movie "Star of Africa", about Marseille's life

I bought the Amodels HA-110-K-1l with the intention of doing a movie machine from "Stern von Afrika", fully prepared to paint it in overall RLM 79, then later I read 'somewhere' on the net that seeing as the movie was in monotone & colours would not be distinguishable, the Hispanos were left in the, I guess, Barrack grey shade except for Luftwaffe markings. I'm still intending to do mine one day like this.

Steve.

[Artie]

Most probably, they were left in the so called Barrack Grey, or most commonly, Mouse Grey. 

As said before, it ranges from a grey-green to a blueish grey hue. The colours were supplied by a spanish brand named Titanlux wich, give or take, replicated RAL colours. I couldn't dare to give a crossed reference with Humbrol, Gunze, etc....the original colours varied a lot even in a row of planes in thecsame unit.

[Max Headroom]

22 hours ago, 28ZComeback said:

Thank you Artie!! I think I read somewhere that the 1109 was not a great succcess. Thank you again. 

The Hispano engines machines had their propellers rotating in the opposite direction to the DB and RR engines. That wouldn’t have been so bad, except that the tail plane bias to counter the torque on take-off wasn’t corrected, so increasing the swing on take off!

 

Trevor

[Graham Boak]

That's a bit difficult to understand, as the DB and RR engines rotated in different directions!  The Buchons (at least) were built with the fin and rudder (not tailplane) aerofoil reversed to suit to the Merlin, something which contributed to the crash of MBB's first rebuild to a DB-engined aircraft where this important bias remained unchanged.  This was carried out on their later example(s).  So I suggest that the Hispano rotated in the same direction as RR, and the airframes were built to match the DB, which would indeed lead to problems.

 

Strictly it is the way that the propellers go round, of course, not the engine.  This can be different or not, dependent on the gearing.

[Artie]

The worst part about tge 12Y engine was the overheating. They never sokved it, so went for another engine. Then the RR engine came as an option. Sadly, it was too late. The Buchón was an obsolete machine even befire reaching operative status.. At first, they were employed on armed reco  patrols over tge spanish Sahara, being absolutely useless in that kind of operations. 

[exdraken]

45 minutes ago, Artie said:

The worst part about tge 12Y engine was the overheating. They never sokved it, so went for another engine. Then the RR engine came as an option. Sadly, it was too late. The Buchón was an obsolete machine even befire reaching operative status.. At first, they were employed on armed reco  patrols over tge spanish Sahara, being absolutely useless in that kind of operations. 

obsolete maybe, but still the only thing available, and it was used! and there was no real air to air enemy... so obsolete compared to the then world market maybe, but better then nothing I guess!

 

so, but technically that here is really getting interesting thanks!

 

on the engines... still a bit of a puzzle for me!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispano-Suiza_12Z

that was the one used on the Ha-1109 I assume with Escher Wyss props (3 bladed??)  and as in modified form "HS 17-12Z" with a 3 bladed de Havilland Hydromatic prop became the Tripala.... and Ha-1112s....

(by the way the nomenclature of these modifications is also more than interesting! starting form the BF 109, the added a 1  in front to create the  1109, ok so far, and then they modified again and instead of doing a 2109, they made it 1110 up to the 1112 with subversions again marked with different letters.. J, K, L.......  very strange, but quizas, I will get it finally!  the He-111 became the Casa 2.111 ... somehow more consistent!)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispano-Suiza_12Y

that one never worked on the 109 derivatives then I assume, if trialed at all....

[Artie]

 Werner: If you ever get to undetstand La Hispano Aviación's nomenclature system, I'll talk to my city major and propose your name to the main street. 

 

The same way, the Ju52 was called 352. The same kind of nomenclature was used by both Hispano Aviación and CASA...

[Max Headroom]

Sorry @Graham Boak but the DB601/605 and Merlin  all rotated anti-clockwise when looking from the front!

 

Me109

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Bf_109#/media/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-487-3066-04,_Flugzeug_Messerschmitt_Me_109.jpg

 

 

Spitfire

 

https://www.uvu.edu/aviation/flyuvu/supermarine-spitfire.html

 

and a Hispano 1109 and 1112 in the Spanish Air Force Museum for comparison

 

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/224344-rank-iv-fighter-aircraft/

 

The aerofoil section of the tailplane was configured to counter the torque swing for  a propeller spinning anti-clockwise from the front. Since Hispano didn’t correct this on the first re-engining exercise, that’s when take-offs and landings became ‘interesting’. When re-re-fitted with the Merlin, things got back to normal.

 

Just had a look at the Jumo engined Avia S.199’s out of curiosity and the propeller swung anti-clockwise on that too. However, since the Mezek had wide paddle bladed props, that introduced a whole new world of grief for the pilot!

 

Trevor

[Graham Boak]

Interesting!  Nonetheless that was the description given for the crash with the initial MBB conversion, with the comment that they'd rebuild the tail next time (and did) so I remain baffled by that one.  The Merlin did go "the wrong way round" compared to most British types, and this led to an instruction from the RAE which basically said "don't do that again", and subsequent British engines didn't.  Which did lead to confusion when pilots converted from Merlin Spitfires to Griffon ones.