FS 11105 high visibility bright red - does it exist?

[Wm Blecky]

I have not had any luck finding a paint company that makes FS 11105 high visibility bright red.  I want to do a the red radar calibration Hurricane Mk.I off the Iliad Design decal sheet:

 

They suggest red FS 11105.  Does anyone here know of a source for this color?

[Troy Smith]

This one has been discussed here on a few occasions, 

eg

the source of the profile  is the 1966 Aircraft in Profile booklet on the hurricane Mk.I 

this one is the source of all the rest AFAIK

 

 

Where Iliad got the 'colour match' from,

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234972519-hurricane-mki-p2992-of-527-radar-calibration-sqn-red/&do=findComment&comment=2231394

Quote

I stated FS 11105 because it was obviously a high-visibility finish, and according to the references (Ian Huntley, et al) in Dave Klaus's colour guide, that was the bright red used for various aircraft markings. The other possibility would have been the "bright" roundel red which is quoted at FS 11136 - somewhat darker. I assumed (I know, I know...) high-vis would be the brighter red. Probably not scientific, but it seemed logical and reasonable. Looking back, I suppose I should have explained this on the instructions. BTW, yes, I know that all this should be done referencing British colour specs. But more people have access to the FS books or fan-decks than the wartime British standards.

 

read the linked thread though.

 

HTH

[Wm Blecky]

Thank you Troy!  Your quick response is appreciated and will prove most helpful.👍

[Graham Boak]

1 hour ago, Troy Smith said:

  Quote

I stated FS 11105 because it was obviously a high-visibility finish, and according to the references (Ian Huntley, et al) in Dave Klaus's colour guide, that was the bright red used for various aircraft markings. The other possibility would have been the "bright" roundel red which is quoted at FS 11136 - somewhat darker. I assumed (I know, I know...) high-vis would be the brighter red. Probably not scientific, but it seemed logical and reasonable. Looking back, I suppose I should have explained this on the instructions. BTW, yes, I know that all this should be done referencing British colour specs. But more people have access to the FS books or fan-decks than the wartime British standards.

OK. Iliad said.  However FS references should never be made in the contest of British WW2 aircraft, or at least not without qualifying that they did not exist simultaneously.  I would also argue that although FS references most likely are more commonly available to US modellers, this probably isn't true for British modellers, whereas British modellers are more likely to be wanting to model Hurricanes than those in the US.  Either way, the one thing we can be sure of is that the colour was not FS11105.  If the colour isn't known, then that should be said and assuming left to the modeller.

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

Given that the references are not very robust and that nobody seems to know for sure what it was (but have fairly good ideas what it wasn't - e.g. wartime Dull Red), then something like International Orange might pass what I like to call the "Laugh Test" on the model.

[Graham Boak]

I might agree, but other red paints are available.  Might I ask your opinion of sites quoting FS numbers for WW2 RN ships?

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

Just now, Graham Boak said:

I might agree, but other red paints are available.  Might I ask your opinion of sites quoting FS numbers for WW2 RN ships?

 

Hi Graham, I suspect you already know I have a dim opinion of quoting FS numbers for anything other than things painted in FS spec paints - unless it's in a descriptive and qualified manner used to get someone close to something.

 

Were this my Hurricane, then to be honest I'd probably just choose another subject. If determined to build this one though, then a colour like International Orange would function as one might imagine it was intended to for the aircraft's stated purpose. It's ropey at best though!

[Troy Smith]

At as things get lost, or overlooked,  this in the linked thread  by Nick Millman is worth quoting 

 

On 15/12/2014 at 13:50, Nick Millman said:

FWIW possibly a form of daylight fluorescent red-orange paint rather than simply 'high-reflectivity' which would be the purest white. Early forms of what were later called Dayglo paints, developed in the USA during the 1930s by the Switzer brothers, were used during the war to paint buoys and for ground-air signalling panels. The company was then called Fluor-S Art Co. Post war it was used, for example, to paint those Hellcat drones.

"DayGlo fluorescent pigments, a new class of pigments based on fluorescent dyes and polymeric materials, were developed between the 1930s and 1950s by scientists at Switzer Brothers, Inc. (now Day-Glo colour Corp.). These pigments absorb various light frequencies (visible and invisible to the human eye) and reemit them, producing intense visible colors that appear to glow, even in daylight. Switzer Brothers, Inc., introduced novel processes that eliminated the limitations in light fastness and colour strength of earlier fluorescent pigments, resulting in new applications in advertising, packaging, flaw detection and safety. These products were used to support Allied troops during World War II . . . "

http://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/education/whatischemistry/landmarks/dayglo.html

The paint was perhaps intended to assist plotting the aircraft visually to co-ordinate its position against the radar signal rather than a paint intended to increase the strength of the radar signal which would have been rather advanced for that time.

But that's all speculative.

 

PS 

Hellcat drones

[Wm Blecky]

Could Xtracolor's Red Arrow Red be a suitable candidate?

 

or RAF Post War Roundel Red:

Edited August 8, 2019 by Wm Blecky
typo

[Wm Blecky]

There is also RLM 23 by Xtracolor

 

or SAS Red/Orange

[Wm Blecky]

The main reason I am looking at Xtracolor's range is that they seem to offer the most diverse range of paints.  Of course, should one of their red's be found to be a reasonably good match, my next hurdle would be to find a means to get a couple of tinlets shipped to Canada

 

I would be open to suggestions for other paint brands.  I do have access to Humbrol, AK Interactive and, albeit limited, Model Master enamels (not a fan of the acrylics).

[Ed Russell]

 

Quote

 Assuming Goulding had some information not available to us, the colour wasn’t red as it looks different to the roundels but not too far off as the fin flash has a white outline around the red. I used a mix of approximately equal parts of Model Master White, Dayglo Orange and RLM23. It is a reasonable match for Dayglo Fire Orange and somewhere near the hue of the profile illustration.

 

Pictures here (not same thread as above)

 

[Wm Blecky]

Thanks Ed.  I'll check that out.

 

I've been looking around the net, what about a fluorescent/fire orange color

 

Humbrol does (did?) this color.  I am wondering if it may be a more likely candidate?

[Black Knight]

Humbrol 209 Fluorescent Fire Orange ; far to bright and orange imho. Good for a Dynorod van but not this

I've seen the US hi-vis red as used on the new type Goshawks (US Navalised BAe Hawk) matched to Humbrol 174 Signal Red

 

Maybe Vallejo Model Color 70-910 would be right

 

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

If interested, this is FS12197 International Orange.

 

 

We decided not to make a separate British BS381C-592 International Orange because whilst their colourspace coordinates are slightly different, I honestly couldn't tell them apart comparing physical chips of them. Hence, we just went with the American product.

[Tomas Enerdal]

Reading with interest.

In trying to determine the most probable colour used, wouldn't it be suitable to try to understand what would be availabe/allowed to use in the 527 (calibration) squadron in 1943? Would american day-glo paint have been available? In qualities for different use (metal wings, fabric covered fuselage and flying surfaces, etc)? Did they paint other a/c in a similar way?

Then, but not before, would it be appropriate IMHO to think about the best paint to use on the model.

EDIT: Mr Duff and I wrote more or less simultainously; If British BS381C-592 International Orange were available at that time, I would go for it. And I know that Sovereign/Colourcoats enamels are just great! 

 

Edited August 8, 2019 by Tomas Enerdal

[Wm Blecky]

15 minutes ago, Tomas Enerdal said:

Would american day-glo paint have been available? In qualities for different use (metal wings, fabric covered fuselage and flying surfaces, etc)? Did they paint other a/c in a similar way?

 

And I know that Sovereign/Colourcoats enamels are just great! 

 

I was wondering the same thing myself.

 

As for the Colourcoats paints, I 110% agree!  They are fantastic.  Only problem, a true challenge to obtain in Canada   I did find a potential source in the U.S. for the Xtracolors though.  Still, I'd be far more happy if I could locate a good source for the Colourcoats.

 

[John]

I'm away from home so don't have full access to sources but I think I'm right in saying that both Signal Red and Orange were available in contemporary issues of BS381, so presumably it wouldn't have been too hard to have a batch of either of these mixed to the relevant DTD specification.

 

John 

[Tomas Enerdal]

Could a US stockist ship to Canada? If so, see; https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/pages/where-to-buy

Good luck!