1:72 Gloster Javelin Jambalaya

[Navy Bird]

3 minutes ago, Duncan B said:

The airbrakes wouldn't have been left open on the ground during Ops, that would lead to the offending pilot having to buy a case of beer for the ground crew (well that's what they had to do on Hunters anyway so guess it was the same on Javelins). Flush with the wing when closed.

 

I figured as much. Well, have the crew belly up to the bar! I think I'll pose the airbrakes open on the T.3, just to add some interest. Modellers license and all that.  

 

Cheers,

Bill

[Selwyn]

On 8/8/2019 at 9:47 PM, Navy Bird said:

 

Thanks a lot, that looks nice. I had not seen that bit of aftermarket before.

 

 

So, I've been doing a lot of comparison of the Plastyk kit against the drawings I have, and to put it mildly - it ain't worth the time to spend on it. Pretty much everything needs work. So following the lead of @Duncan B, it's going in the bin. But I still want an FAW.9, so I found a Novo version of the Frog kit on eBay for a song, so I bought it. It will need a bit of work too, but from what I've read it won't be as bad as the Plastyk kit.

 

So there, I've done it.   

 

Meanwhile, I have the T.3 cockpit in progress, and I've just started painting the ejection seats. I used the Airwaves consoles (they didn't fit - someone warned me) and the replacement forward floor:

 

 

 

I trimmed the the consoles a little and dry brushed the details, and I used decals on the instrument panels. (Lazy, I know.)

 

 

Maybe OK? There is a throttle quadrant in the Airwaves set that hasn't been added yet. Not sure how much of this will be seen, especially if the canopy is closed. The rudder pedals were attached to the back of the main instrument panel.

 

 

Another modification that probably didn't need to be made. Oh well. The ejection seats look really nice. They will really brighten up this pit. Cushions are khaki in the photo I have, with blue belts on the seat and tan belts for the harnesses. It's a Martin-Baker photo, but I'm not sure it's from an in-service Javelin. Do those colours sound right? You know, like before I paint them?   

 

Cheers,

Bill

The Blue/khaki strap system was a standard colour coding  for the seat belts.  The blue coloured straps purpose was to secure the pilot in the seat, these straps  were released and fell away from the seat when the automatic  pilot/seat separation system functioned  after ejection. The khaki straps were the parachute straps.  They were colour coded to ensure that the blue straps were always fastened over the khaki parachute straps  so that on pilot separation the seat and parachute straps did not get tangled up, a potentially fatal occurrence!

 

Selwyn

[Antti_K]

Bill,

 

would these pictures be of help? I drew all the straps using Javelin PN and photos as a guide and then scaled down with a photocopier. The PE straps for 1/48 scale Javelin FAW.9 are very inaccurate.

 

 

 

And here they are attached in to the Airfix seat awaiting for some final touch up. A photo in an earlier post doesn't show a MB 3J seat; it looks like Mk.5.

 

I was thinking what Selwyn said about the colour coding. In Javelin the crotch belts (parachute) are blue... And blue shoulder straps go under khaki ones. So it means that "seat belts" are worn under the parachute harness. Sounds confusing.

 

Another thing caught my eye few posts earlier: No Javelin FAW.9 as such could re-fuel in flight. Some FAW.9s were modified and they carried the re-fueling probe on ferry flights. Some modified (not all) FAW.9s were further modified to carry under wing tanks and the re-fueling probe and only these were called FAW.9Rs.

 

Sorry, couldn't resist😉 Javelin!

 

Cheers,

Antti

[Selwyn]

13 hours ago, Antti_K said:

Bill,

 

would these pictures be of help? I drew all the straps using Javelin PN and photos as a guide and then scaled down with a photocopier. The PE straps for 1/48 scale Javelin FAW.9 are very inaccurate.

 

 

 

And here they are attached in to the Airfix seat awaiting for some final touch up. A photo in an earlier post doesn't show a MB 3J seat; it looks like Mk.5.

 

I was thinking what Selwyn said about the colour coding. In Javelin the crotch belts (parachute) are blue... And blue shoulder straps go under khaki ones. So it means that "seat belts" are worn under the parachute harness. Sounds confusing.

 

Another thing caught my eye few posts earlier: No Javelin FAW.9 as such could re-fuel in flight. Some FAW.9s were modified and they carried the re-fueling probe on ferry flights. Some modified (not all) FAW.9s were further modified to carry under wing tanks and the re-fueling probe and only these were called FAW.9Rs.

 

Sorry, couldn't resist😉 Javelin!

 

Cheers,

Antti

the painted seat image above is correct,  the blue straps going in  to the centre of the parachute "backpack" are the inertia reel straps (same idea as your car seat belts) that  allow the pilot to lean forward  and move in flight, they connect the  pilot to the seat. On ejection these straps  are reeled in by the ejection system  to get the pilot sat in an upright position for ejection  and on separation release from the seat frame  disconnecting  the pilot in line with what I said in my earlier post.

 

Selwyn 

[Navy Bird]

15 hours ago, Antti_K said:

would these pictures be of help? I drew all the straps using Javelin PN and photos as a guide and then scaled down with a photocopier. The PE straps for 1/48 scale Javelin FAW.9 are very inaccurate.

 

<snip>

 

And here they are attached in to the Airfix seat awaiting for some final touch up. A photo in an earlier post doesn't show a MB 3J seat; it looks like Mk.5.

 

I was thinking what Selwyn said about the colour coding. In Javelin the crotch belts (parachute) are blue... And blue shoulder straps go under khaki ones. So it means that "seat belts" are worn under the parachute harness. Sounds confusing.

 

Another thing caught my eye few posts earlier: No Javelin FAW.9 as such could re-fuel in flight. Some FAW.9s were modified and they carried the re-fueling probe on ferry flights. Some modified (not all) FAW.9s were further modified to carry under wing tanks and the re-fueling probe and only these were called FAW.9Rs.

 

Those pictures are a great help. I've been using the following photo as my guide in detailing and painting the resin seats - can't remember where I found it. It's labelled as a Mk.3J seat from a Javelin FAW.5 - I assume that's correct. This probably came from The Ejection Site.

 

 

Thanks for the clarification on the FAW.9R. I had assumed that all Javelins equipped with the refueling probe, whether or not they had additional under wing tanks, had that designation.

 

1 hour ago, Selwyn said:

the painted seat image above is correct,  the blue straps going in  to the centre of the parachute "backpack" are the inertia reel straps (same idea as your car seat belts) that  allow the pilot to lean forward  and move in flight, they connect the  pilot to the seat. On ejection these straps  are reeled in by the ejection system  to get the pilot sat in an upright position for ejection  and on separation release from the seat frame  disconnecting  the pilot in line with what I said in my earlier post.

 

Lots of straps! It would take me forever to figure out how to put those on. Friendly tip: when you're replying to a post, you don't have to include the photos again, especially if they're in the previous post. Just click on the photo in your reply, and then delete. That way we don't have to scroll down through two sets of the same photos. Thanks.

 

Cheers,

Bill

 

PS. Photos of the ejection seats to come soon!

[Antti_K]

Hello all,

and thank you Selwyn for the explanation🙂 It is nice to hear that I got the straps right. Is it possible that the crotch belts ("leg loops") that clearly are part of the parachute harness were replaced with blue ones? It is of course against that very clear rule... I got the original picture somewhere.

 

It took indeed hours to find out how these belts work. And there were two different harness versions used in Javelin FAW.9s. I created a mock harness from colourful paper strips and played with those reading the Air Crew Manual, studying photos and even video clips. It became clear that the PE set was useless. Then I made these; one afternoon, crayons and white paper.

 

 

Then using my HP Inkjet scaled them down, printed out and covered with Scotch tape before cutting them out.

 

Bill, your photo of the seat is indeed right for FAW.4. Here is a photo of MB 3J used in FAW.9s:

 

 

 

The photos come from Pilot's Notes for Javelin FAW.9.

 

Cheers,

Antti

 

 

[Selwyn]

30 minutes ago, Antti_K said:

Hello all,

and thank you Selwyn for the explanation🙂 It is nice to hear that I got the straps right. Is it possible that the crotch belts ("leg loops") that clearly are part of the parachute harness were replaced with blue ones? It is of course against that very clear rule... I got the original picture somewhere.

 

It took indeed hours to find out how these belts work. And there were two different harness versions used in Javelin FAW.9s. I created a mock harness from colourful paper strips and played with those reading the Air Crew Manual, studying photos and even video clips. It became clear that the PE set was useless. Then I made these; one afternoon, crayons and white paper.

 

 

Then using my HP Inkjet scaled them down, printed out and covered with Scotch tape before cutting them out.

 

Bill, your photo of the seat is indeed right for FAW.4. Here is a photo of MB 3J used in FAW.9s:

 

 

 

The photos come from Pilot's Notes for Javelin FAW.9.

 

Cheers,

Antti

 

 

If you look at the picture inset above the Khaki leg loops feed through  D rings on the lap straps but actually are snugged over the  khaki shoulder strap lugs.  the D rings  made sure that the leg loops  are pulled apart and kept away from the quick release box (and incidentally the pilots "soft bits" !) so there is easy access to it (i mean the release box!) in an emergency,  but the leg loops as part of the parachute harness are actually kept secure on ejection by the khaki parachute shoulder strap lugs, so It isn't  against "that very clear rule."

 

Selwyn

 

PS

You may have noticed that more modern seats don't have the blue straps, this is because that they have now been incorporated into a single combined harness system that ensures that there is no possibility of a tangle causing a problem.

Edited August 10, 2019 by Selwyn

[Antti_K]

Thank you again Selwyn🙂 I should have used the correct term "Leg loops" from the beginning; couldn't just remember the right words.

 

You mention in your post that leg loops are khaki. That makes perfect sense with what you told earlier; parachute straps are khaki coloured. I made blue ones for my Javelin, as I saw a picture of 60 or 64 Squadron aircraft with blue leg loops. Therefore I asked if these were replaced using blue material although it's "against the rule".

 

When I first flew a BAe Hawk in the early 1990s it still had two coloured straps. Last summer I had a chance to sit in the cockpit again and the whole harness was completely new; only khaki. Only the leg restraint cords were blue.

 

Cheers,

Antti

[Selwyn]

1 hour ago, Antti_K said:

Thank you again Selwyn🙂 I should have used the correct term "Leg loops" from the beginning; couldn't just remember the right words.

 

You mention in your post that leg loops are khaki. That makes perfect sense with what you told earlier; parachute straps are khaki coloured. I made blue ones for my Javelin, as I saw a picture of 60 or 64 Squadron aircraft with blue leg loops. Therefore I asked if these were replaced using blue material although it's "against the rule".

 

When I first flew a BAe Hawk in the early 1990s it still had two coloured straps. Last summer I had a chance to sit in the cockpit again and the whole harness was completely new; only khaki. Only the leg restraint cords were blue.

 

Cheers,

Antti

I'm not that familiar with the hawk seat but  seats around that period had what was called the "Negative G strap" that came up between the pilots legs and attached to the Quick release box.  it stopped the pilot sliding down and out from under the seat straps. This was blue maybe this is what you remember?

 

 Antti, I think we should get back to Javelins now  as we seem to have hijacked this thread  just a a little bit! (sorry Navy bird!)

 

Selwyn

(Eating humble pie!)

[Antti_K]

Yes. let's return to Javelins🙂

 

Cheers,

Antti

[Procopius]

Bill -- just saw this on Facebook while covering a Rhiannon Giddens performance for work: https://www.hpmhobbies.com/high-planes-gloster-javelin-exhaust-correction-for-airfix-heller-accessories-1-72/?ctk=1d4b7f8f-32fb-4381-b0ce-b24979a9727d

 

Might be useful?

[CedB]

I'm here, creeping in at the back and all caught up now…

Why am I late? Someone or something had removed my 'following member' preference for you. Hmmm.

Now corrected!

[Gondor44]

On 8/9/2019 at 7:03 PM, Duncan B said:

That doesn't look like the FAW7 rear end to me, the section between the jet pipes is too pronounced and, as already stated the underside was relatively flat but quite obviously swept up towards the jet pipes on the FAW7.

I'd like to see a photo from above of that FAW7 carrying out the refuelling trials, the refuelling probe looks to be a lot different from the production version that the FAW9R wore.

 

Duncan B

Haveing messaged Spot On Designes and chatting with the owner he agrees that it's not the same as the picture and is not even the same as his refferences to see if he mistakenly modeled a prottype by mistake. I will find a use for the part anyway.

 

He did send me pictures of the Javalin at Elvington

 

 

Gondor

[Duncan B]

58 minutes ago, Gondor44 said:

Haveing messaged Spot On Designes and chatting with the owner he agrees that it's not the same as the picture and is not even the same as his refferences to see if he mistakenly modeled a prottype by mistake. I will find a use for the part anyway.

 

He did send me pictures of the Javalin at Elvington

 

 

Gondor

That's an FAW9 without it's engines.

 

Duncan B

[Gondor44]

1 hour ago, Duncan B said:

That's an FAW9 without it's engines.

 

Duncan B

He never did say which version that was.

 

Gondor

[Duncan B]

14 hours ago, Gondor44 said:

He never did say which version that was.

 

Gondor

No problem, I posted so that others who might not have known what they were looking at would. Thanks for posting the photos.

 

Duncan B

[Navy Bird]

On 10/08/2019 at 17:02, Selwyn said:

...we seem to have hijacked this thread  just a a little bit! (sorry Navy bird!)

 

Not a hijack at all, lots of good information that can be used by our fellow modellers. Thanks guys!   

 

On 11/08/2019 at 01:11, Procopius said:

Bill -- just saw this on Facebook while covering a Rhiannon Giddens performance for work: https://www.hpmhobbies.com/high-planes-gloster-javelin-exhaust-correction-for-airfix-heller-accessories-1-72/?ctk=1d4b7f8f-32fb-4381-b0ce-b24979a9727d

 

Sweet! I wonder if that will fit on the Frog FAW.9 which I just ordered. Ah, what the heck, I'll buy it anyway. What does HPM have to do with Rhiannon Giddens? Is she the one that Fleetwood Mac were singing about?   

 

On 11/08/2019 at 03:01, CedB said:

Why am I late? Someone or something had removed my 'following member' preference for you. Hmmm.

 

I suspect it was your wife trying to protect you from too much exposure to me. It's been known to cause long term damage to people's psyche.

 

 

***

Back to work...I can guarantee that my ejection seats will be somewhat inaccurate, but should convey the "mood" of such devices. And that should be OK.

 

Cheers,

Bill

 

EDIT: I ordered the resin from HPM. Let's see how long DHL takes to get it here from Singapore.  

[71chally]

On 8/11/2019 at 6:11 AM, Procopius said:

Bill -- just saw this on Facebook while covering a Rhiannon Giddens performance for work: https://www.hpmhobbies.com/high-planes-gloster-javelin-exhaust-correction-for-airfix-heller-accessories-1-72/?ctk=1d4b7f8f-32fb-4381-b0ce-b24979a9727d

 

Might be useful?

Wow! Isn't this what we've all been looking for - great find!

[Duncan B]

On 8/11/2019 at 6:11 AM, Procopius said:

Bill -- just saw this on Facebook while covering a Rhiannon Giddens performance for work: https://www.hpmhobbies.com/high-planes-gloster-javelin-exhaust-correction-for-airfix-heller-accessories-1-72/?ctk=1d4b7f8f-32fb-4381-b0ce-b24979a9727d

 

Might be useful?

Right, I'm having them! 3 ready to ship is now 3 heading my way. I might get my 1/72 Javelin collection completed soon if these are any use. (was fondling my FAW5 at silly o'clock this morning as I couldn't sleep but couldn't fire up the compressor for fear of waking SWMBO).

 

Duncan B

[Navy Bird]

7 hours ago, 71chally said:

Wow! Isn't this what we've all been looking for - great find!

 

Indeed! We should all bow down and offer sacrifices to @Procopius. Truly the God of Discovering Resin Obscurities Unknown to Fellow Modellers.

 

5 hours ago, Duncan B said:

Right, I'm having them! 3 ready to ship is now 3 heading my way. I might get my 1/72 Javelin collection completed soon if these are any use. (was fondling my FAW5 at silly o'clock this morning as I couldn't sleep but couldn't fire up the compressor for fear of waking SWMBO).

 

HPM shipped mine the same day I ordered it. Very nice, now we'll see how DHL performs. You should get an ultra-quiet compressor like mine, it doesn't even wake me up when I fall asleep whilst airbrushing.   

 

 

****

Today in the post I found a box. Inside was the Frog/Novo kit of the FAW.9. If I might be so bold, I shall purloin from Sir Raymond Douglas Davies, and sing along with Mr. Black:

 

You better run, you better hide

Hide your daughters, hide your wives

Lock your doors and stay inside...

Here comes Flash!

 

Holy Frijole. Oh dear. Ne'er have I seen such ponderous outflow of extraneous styrene bursting forth, undaunted by mere constraints of metal tooling. Aye aye aye.  

 

One thing stuck me when I was comparing all the kits I now have (Heller T.3, Plastyk FAW.9, and Frog FAW.9) and that's the cross sectional shape of the top of the fuselage between the cockpit and the vertical tail. On Heller, the shape is basically flat, but has considerable curvature as it transitions to the side of the fuselage. The other two kits are significantly flat, with sharp curvature in the transition. The difference is quite noticeable when placed side by side. Based on drawings I found which include several cross sectional profiles, the Heller kit is more representative.

 

I'm thinking the best way forward is to somehow find the Airfix FAW.9 kit. There has to one out there somewhere...although I've looked at all the usual suspects. I'll keep looking, and in the meantime finish up the T.3. Hopefully by then the Javelin Fairy will find the Airfix kit for me. Otherwise, the Frog kit will suffice. I know that it builds up nicely with the proper amount of care.

 

Cheers,

Bill

[giemme]

Now I get why you called this a Jambalaya...

 

Ciao

[stever219]

On 8/9/2019 at 10:54 PM, Navy Bird said:

Wow, learning lots of good stuff. And I need it, too, because I'm a Javelin novice, having been cloistered in the colonies during the 50s and 60s. Maybe one of you can answer a question about the airbrakes - where these ever seen open when the aircraft was on the ground? And when they were closed were they flush with the surface of the wing?

 

Cheers,

Bill

The flaps also were selected "UP" fir the same reason that airbrakes were selected "IN", with the same penalty for a forgetful flyer.  That said you can find images of Javelins on the ground with 'brakes out and/or flaps down, but these may have been instructional airframes, posed for the photos or being worked on.  Normally though "IN" and "UP" was the rule.

[Navy Bird]

1 hour ago, giemme said:

Now I get why you called this a Jambalaya...

 

Ciao

 

Hopefully, somewhere in the deep forest of FAW.9 kits and parts that I'm collecting, an FAW.9 will emerge. Sometime.   

 

1 hour ago, stever219 said:

The flaps also were selected "UP" fir the same reason that airbrakes were selected "IN", with the same penalty for a forgetful flyer.  That said you can find images of Javelins on the ground with 'brakes out and/or flaps down, but these may have been instructional airframes, posed for the photos or being worked on.  Normally though "IN" and "UP" was the rule.

 

Thanks - "maintenance" is always the excuse I use when someone tells me "you know, the flaps were never down when the aircraft was on the ground." Sometime, someone must have serviced them. But it's a lame excuse, so I just buy a round for the crew.   

 

****

So here is the Novo version of the Frog kit, which I think uses the original Frog artwork:

 

 

 

And some examples of the moulding technique:

 

 

 

And what's with the odd yellow discolouration here and there? Maybe a rust preventative oil on the tooling that wasn't cleaned prior to the injection run? Weird.

 

Here is where I'm at with the faux ejection seats. Perfect? No. Usable? They're OK with me.

 

 

Combination of resin and PE from a variety of sources - and as usual they look better in real life than they do blown up a couple of hundred percent on my monitor. This may be the last you'll see of them until later, as I generally do not install these at this stage of the build. Seats, control columns, fiddly stuff, and canopy go on last.

 

Cheers,

Bill

[giemme]

Lovely seats, Bill  Perfect for a Jambalaya Javelin  

 

Ciao

[Navy Bird]

Oh, I forgot this photo:

 

 

This is the front cockpit rear bulkhead part from Airwaves cut down to fit in the T.3 cockpit. It didn't fit (someone warned me).   

 

Cheers,

Bill