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Navy Bird

1:72 Gloster Javelin Jambalaya

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6 hours ago, Navy Bird said:

She'll lay there for hours. I think she knows.

:weep: 

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On 10/10/2019 at 12:06 AM, Navy Bird said:

Mates, I need your help again. In the following photo you can see that there is a structural element (I call it a "roll bar") in-between the front and rear cockpit.

 

T3 flightline

 

If I decide to cut open the canopy, I'll need to scratchbuild this structure and I'll need more than just this photo to go by. Does anyone have any better photos or drawings that show this in better detail? I can't guarantee that I'll open the canopy as that will also involve re-working the rails along the bottom, part of which Heller/Airfix have moulded onto the turtle deck. Many thanks in advance for any help.

 

Cheers,

Bill

Be aware that this it a picture of a T bird, I am not sure the hoop was a feature of the FAW aircraft. It may be there because the rear seat was much higher on the T bird than on the Fighters.

 

Selwyn

Edited by Selwyn

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So cute!

 

Broody of Mars 👽

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18 hours ago, Navy Bird said:

But now I get to baby-sit the dogs as well as the grandkids.

 

Know that feeling, been doing it for years... Lovely pair of hounds! :)

 

18 hours ago, Navy Bird said:

I should charge a fee...

 

Been doing that for years too. Never gets paid....!!

 

17 hours ago, Navy Bird said:

She and Koda were together for several months.

 

My boy had Golden Doodle Honey and Newfoundland Hollie together for 7 years. Hollie left us at the start of the year (56 kilos - yes kilos, not pounds! - when she passed) and it was only a couple of months ago that Honey stopped looking for her in all the favourite places Hollie liked to explore (& wee in!) on our regular walks. They definitely know... :(

 

Keith

 

PS I'd definitely use the arch, at least 'something' is in there then - & it looks good anyway! As does your work on the droopy elevators

 

 

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6 hours ago, Selwyn said:

Be aware that this it a picture of a T bird, I am not sure the hoop was a feature of the FAW aircraft. It may be there because the rear seat was much higher on the T bird than on the Fighters.

 

Oh I'm aware. I'm building the T.3 first; the FAW.9 comes later. I suspect the arch is there to provide structural support in the area where the two sliding canopies come together.

 

Cheers,

Bill

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5 hours ago, Navy Bird said:

I suspect the arch is there to provide structural support in the area where the two sliding canopies come together.

Photos of the FAW.9 also show an arch which to my eye appears to be an integral part of the intermediate canopy frame & the rear face of which is hung all over with navigator type toys.

Steve.

Edited by stevehnz

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I decided the best thing to do with the arch was to glue it to the inside of the canopy, making sure it's lined up with the spot where the two canopies come together.

 

IMG_4469

 

That's where it appears to be in photos where the canopies are closed. The bang seats and control columns were added to the Spartan cockpit:

 

IMG_4471

 

Honestly, you can't see much of this once the canopy is on. Oh well. Now, while we're speaking about the canopy - I know that on the FAW machines the rear edge of the sliding canopies did not have a frame, so it was similar to the Hunter in this regard. Also, there were prominent sealing strips visible. On the T.3, my photos (which aren't close-ups) seem to show the sealing strip all the way to the front and rear edges - so it looks like a typical canopy framework. Have another look at the previous T.3 line-up photo. And that's the way the clear part is moulded. However, the artwork on the Heller box, shows part of the rear perspex extending aft of the sealing strip:

 

IMG_4174

 

Anyone know for sure? Not sure I can do anything about it, as the clear part doesn't match the box top.

 

Cheers,

Bill

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On 9/29/2019 at 11:16 PM, Navy Bird said:

I overdid some of the scribing, mostly on access panels, and some of them need to be filled with some Mr. Surfacer. I don't want folks to think this is a Matchbox kit!    :)

 

I'm a bit behind so catching up :blush:

 

But I couldn't let that scribing go without adding my appreciation Bill.  That's mighty neat work; and if you do think any are over-done (picky- picky;  but that's Navy Bird levels of perfection :)) some thin Mr Surfacer should work a treat (speaking as a more ham-fisted scriber as has needed that fix several times......)

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I’ve been lurking on the sidelines watching this build. I’m popping up to say the cockpit looks fabulous. Very impressive. 
 

👍

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5 hours ago, Fritag said:

I'm a bit behind so catching up :blush:

 

But I couldn't let that scribing go without adding my appreciation Bill.  That's mighty neat work; and if you do think any are over-done (picky- picky;  but that's Navy Bird levels of perfection :)) some thin Mr Surfacer should work a treat (speaking as a more ham-fisted scriber as has needed that fix several times......)

 

Thanks! I used a splot or two of Mr. Surfacer in a few places. I'm happy and can't wait to get the camo on. Speaking of Mr. Surfacer, I downloaded the 24 page GSI/Creos Mr. Hobby catalogue, and I think they've overdone the names. Mr. Spout? Mr. Dropper Super Long? Mr. Clean Stick? Mr. Just One-Push?   :doh:

 

5 hours ago, Heather Kay said:

I’ve been lurking on the sidelines watching this build. I’m popping up to say the cockpit looks fabulous. Very impressive.

 

Thanks Heather. Once I finish the T.3, then it's on to your FAW.9. I still plan on making the A&AEE red and white one. I love those kind of schemes!

 

Cheers,

Bill

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3 hours ago, Navy Bird said:

 

Thanks Heather. Once I finish the T.3, then it's on to your FAW.9. I still plan on making the A&AEE red and white one. I love those kind of schemes!

 

Exactly the scheme I have lined up for my 1/48 Airfix example. BTW if you find out what the rear cockpit of this research aircraft looks like, can you show us? Its been holding up my starting the kit.

 

Martian 👽

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On 9/25/2019 at 8:22 AM, Antti_K said:

Hello Bill,

 

standard camouflage for all Javelin marks was Dark Sea Gray / Dark Green / High Speed Silver and it remained the same during the whole "Javelin Era". Only change being the wrap-around of upper side colours (wing leading edges only) after 1966 or so. It is true that the under surfaces look gray(ish) in some photos but is due to weathering. I found it interesting that HSS seems to have weathered more in Europe than in the Far-East.

 

I'm not familiar with official Gloster painting produre but 64 Squadron stripped their Javelins into bare metal before a new camouflage was applied. Whether they used a primer, I can't tell. Normally you should as top coat paints don't stick into bare aluminium surface. A "Zinc-chromate" primer is applied first and on top of that a coat of adhesive paint, because camouflage paints don't stick well onto ZCY either. Point here being, you can apply camouflage paint on bare metal but then you should realize that heavy weathering and chipping starts to occur within days. Something you don't see on 60 or 64 Squadron Javelins in the late 1960s.

 

Cheers,

Antti

Antti, I believe the replacement aircraft destined for Singapore were stripped to bare metal during their Major Servicing at the MU in the UK and then sent out unpainted. This is how 228OCU's GHB XH898 came to be in NMF as it was borrowed by the OCU after it's Majors but before it got shipped out and the CO to a shine (pun intended) to it and managed to keep hold of it. 

On 10/5/2019 at 1:22 AM, Navy Bird said:

 

There I go again, actually believing what is printed on the Print Scale decal instruction sheet. First it was "Light Aircraft Grey" that should be High Speed Silver, and now "Medium Sea Grey" which should be "Dark Sea Grey." At least they got the Dark Green part correct.

 

20191004_201727

 

Makes me wonder if any of the markings are correct.

 

Cheers,

Bill

I did post somewhere here on BM about the Print Scale MSG mistake a few months ago after I bought a couple of sets of these decals.

Great job on the scribing Bill. Your bang seats look amazing but check your references as some of the Javelin seats had a 'D' shaped (imagine the D on it's side) face screen handle as opposed to the 'B' shape more common on more modern seats. I can't remember off hand at what point the Javelins got the later seats but I did find photos of T.3s with the earlier D handle when I was building mine.

 

**Edit** a quick Google shows that the FAW5s appear to have the double handle in the shape of a 'B'. It looks to me that the seats were probably updated at some point as I can find photos of both types of handles on, what appears to be ,Mk.3 seats but I wasn't an armourer so am no expert.

 

Duncan B

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Just noticed this and there's 13 pages of catching up!

 

Excellent progress, need to go and explore more of it :)
 

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3 hours ago, Martian Hale said:

Exactly the scheme I have lined up for my 1/48 Airfix example. BTW if you find out what the rear cockpit of this research aircraft looks like, can you show us? Its been holding up my starting the kit.

 

We sure don't want to be holding up your building of the 1:48 Dragmaster! I didn't even know that was on your short list. Let's see, is the red & white babe still at Duxford? I'll be there sometime in the second week of November, I believe. Maybe @CedB can arrange a private viewing of the rear cockpit for our entourage.

 

3 hours ago, Duncan B said:

<snip>

I did post somewhere here on BM about the Print Scale MSG mistake a few months ago after I bought a couple of sets of these decals.

Great job on the scribing Bill. Your bang seats look amazing but check your references as some of the Javelin seats had a 'D' shaped (imagine the D on it's side) face screen handle as opposed to the 'B' shape more common on more modern seats. I can't remember off hand at what point the Javelins got the later seats but I did find photos of T.3s with the earlier D handle when I was building mine.

 

**Edit** a quick Google shows that the FAW5s appear to have the double handle in the shape of a 'B'. It looks to me that the seats were probably updated at some point as I can find photos of both types of handles on, what appears to be ,Mk.3 seats but I wasn't an armourer so am no expert.

 

Thanks Duncan. Now is a good time to change the face screen handles if necessary. I referred to a photo of the Javelin FAW.5 seat when I made my bang seats. None of the photos I have of the T.3 are detailed enough to make out the handle. To be honest, though, you'll have to look really hard through this Airfix canopy to even see these little guys. Even after I dunked it in floor wax.

 

1 hour ago, woody37 said:

Just noticed this and there's 13 pages of catching up! Excellent progress, need to go and explore more of it :)

 

Welcome aboard! She's getting there. Hopefully I'll have some paint on the gal before I head to Delaware this weekend. I'm going down to watch my son in a 75 mile (not km) bike race. Crazy! I would get tired after 75 feet.    :)

 

Cheers,

Bill

 

PS. Well, to tell the truth whilst he's racing his bike I'll be on a pub crawl.

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Boy, this Internet thing is pretty cool. I found a T.3 photo that looks to me like the back seat has a "B" face screen handle.

 

XM336 T3

 

Can't see the front seat, but I'll assume it's the same. Based on this statistical sample of one, I'll leave them as they are.

 

Now, then, this photo also shows some things I hadn't seen (or noticed) before. Is there a rear-facing intake of some kind on the spine? The kit has two of these at the aft end of the turtledeck, but they're not this big. And it looks like the cannon tubes protrude from the leading edge of the wing. Hmm. This is also shows the conformal (?) tanks on the bottom - I'm not planning on these for my T.3, but will use them on the FAW.9. Although I do have two sets of these tanks...

 

Cheers,

Bill

 

PS. I'm liking that ladder too. And I have these markings.

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28 minutes ago, Navy Bird said:

Maybe @CedB can arrange a private viewing of the rear cockpit for our entourage.

Now then, I'm all for this delegation malarkey but have you tried navigating the IWM website? I have. It's horrid.

I suggest we go there with tools. 

We can distract the security guys while you crawl all over the aircraft…

 

Oh, OK, I've tried harder and submitted a request for access. In the unlikely event that this doesn't get bounced by a robot I'll let you know.

Beer will be required in compensation :) 

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10 minutes ago, CedB said:

Beer will be required in compensation :) 

 

Of course. Was there a doubt?

 

I'll bring my "jaws of life" too. We'll get inside that baby for our alien friend. Although it might be easier if he brought his green death ray.

 

Cheers,

Bill

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6 hours ago, Navy Bird said:

 Well, to tell the truth whilst he's racing his bike I'll be on a pub crawl.

I can help with the pub crawl bit! You can tell Mrs Navy Bird that you are in the care of the BM Martian so what could possibly go wrong? A safe set of tentacles me!

 

Helpful of Mars 👽

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9 hours ago, Navy Bird said:

Is there a rear-facing intake of some kind on the spine? The kit has two of these at the aft end of the turtledeck, but they're not this big. And it looks like the cannon tubes protrude from the leading edge of the wing. Hmm. This is also shows the conformal (?) tanks on the bottom - I'm not planning on these for my T.3, but will use them on the FAW.9. Although I do have two sets of these tanks...

Calling the underfuselage tanks conformal maybe a case of being a bit too kind to Glosters!

 

 

Those rear facing outlets do show up in the pictures on the previous page, from some angles they are particularly noticeable.

Interesting with the canon tubes, on some T.3s they are present, in others they're not.

 

Some useful pics,

 

https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/abpic-media-eu-production/pictures/full_size_062/1093916-large.jpg

 

https://www.airliners.net/photo/UK-Air-Force/Gloster-Javelin-T3/2729417/L

 

https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/abpic-media-eu-production/pictures/full_size_0348/1522056-large.jpg

 

https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/model/Gloster Javelin T3

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/dwhitworth/6318100309

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ayronautica/39766672851

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ayronautica/46194597134/in/photolist-2h4EYzQ-2do4okh-2dg9cbA-23rYpt5-23YXXiv-FLnciw-FLmCAY-23BRZVo-23A3Aox-22viNAQ-U7PPZU-2eHPQ3g-267Msi6-21Nd4FW-21NcbGm-TZaTD3-SRGHmh

 

 

This is a great list with images of many of the Javelins built, sadly the pictures are small, but a good resource for the unit markings and serials tie ups.

https://www.raf-in-combat.com/downloads/february-2016-gloster-javelin-faw-1-faw-2-and-t-3-43-photos/

https://www.raf-in-combat.com/downloads/march-2017-gloster-javelin-faw-4-faw-5-faw-6-39-photos/

https://www.raf-in-combat.com/downloads/june-2018-gloster-javelin-faw-7-faw-8-26-photos/

https://www.raf-in-combat.com/downloads/april-2019-gloster-javelin-faw-9-103-photos/

Edited by 71chally

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9 hours ago, Navy Bird said:

Boy, this Internet thing is pretty cool. I found a T.3 photo that looks to me like the back seat has a "B" face screen handle.

 

XM336 T3

 

Can't see the front seat, but I'll assume it's the same. Based on this statistical sample of one, I'll leave them as they are.

 

Now, then, this photo also shows some things I hadn't seen (or noticed) before. Is there a rear-facing intake of some kind on the spine? The kit has two of these at the aft end of the turtledeck, but they're not this big. And it looks like the cannon tubes protrude from the leading edge of the wing. Hmm. This is also shows the conformal (?) tanks on the bottom - I'm not planning on these for my T.3, but will use them on the FAW.9. Although I do have two sets of these tanks...

 

Cheers,

Bill

 

PS. I'm liking that ladder too. And I have these markings.

I wouldn't bother changing the seat handles if I were you. Although I was working from a photo of a T.3 when I did mine I found photos last night of some FAW1s with the later B shaped handles so I suspect they were some sort of Mod carried out on the seats at some point in the service life of the Javelin. Seats were probably changed out at regular intervals so probably all the serviceable aircraft after a certain period would have ended up with them.

Sorry to throw you a diversion you probably didn't need.

 

**Edit** Looking again at the photo of the T.3 you posted it is an earlier serial number than the one I made so that kind of confirms to me what I have guessed at above.

 

Duncan B

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On 13/10/2019 at 22:42, Navy Bird said:

On the T.3, my photos (which aren't close-ups) seem to show the sealing strip all the way to the front and rear edges

Bill, if you zoom in on the photo in post 293 you can see the white re-enforcing strip on the front edge of both canopies starts right at the front, whereas the rear strip on both canopies has a narrow section of clear canopy 1/2 -2/3 the width of the white re-enforcement strip aft of the strip

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8 hours ago, Dave Swindell said:

Bill, if you zoom in on the photo in post 293 you can see the white re-enforcing strip on the front edge of both canopies starts right at the front, whereas the rear strip on both canopies has a narrow section of clear canopy 1/2 -2/3 the width of the white re-enforcement strip aft of the strip

 

I see what you mean. That will be really small in 1:72 scale, I think. Since my canopy will be closed, the model will have this sort of appearance:

 

XH436 T3 large

 

I had another look at the kit canopy with my Baker Street Glass, and believe it or not Airfix have moulded a teeny tiny bit of clear part aft of the rear sealing strips on the rear canopy. It is not flash; I believe it's supposed to be there. It is perhaps a tenth or two of a millimetre in width. I'll try to mask it off...aye ca-rumba. The best approach is probably to mask off the entire sliding canopy and add the sealing strips with decal stripes. Possibly. Maybe. Perhaps. I don't know.

 

Cheers,

Bill

 

PS. All that scribing, and based on the above photo the Javelin has no panel lines at all. But I knew that.    :)

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Hello mates,

 

Time for two apologies. First, for little to no modelling in the last few weeks. It's that time of year when work must be done outside to ensure that we survive Old Man Winter, plus I had to finish two chapters I am contributing to an upcoming scale modelling book. Then, all of my doctors conspired at once to make sure that enough appointments were scheduled prior to the end of the year - that way they can be sure of enough income to meet the down payments on their new yachts. Then we went to Delaware to watch my son in that bike race, prior to which wifey decided to break her ankle. It's been an interesting few weeks.

 

Second apology is for the next few weeks of little to no modelling activity. On Friday, we head to Edinburgh for a week of touristy stuff in Scotland. We prefer cold, rainy weather and off-season crowds so it should be perfect! Except wifey has this Terminator-type boot on her broken foot - which may keep everything aligned and immobilized, but isn't exactly easy to walk in. But we'll work it out. After we've spent all the kid's inheritance, wifey goes home and I head down to Telford to see what all you guys and gals are up to. Following Telford, it's a week of touring the countryside with @CedB as our driver, and @Procopius and @Cookenbacher providing the play-by-play.

 

Eventually, I'll get back home and resume my modelling career. Er, scale modelling career. I promise.

 

Cheers,

Bill

 

PS. Looking forward to meeting those of you who I, um, happen to meet.

PPS. I wonder if wifey scheduled Scotland for the week prior to Telford in a deliberate attempt to deplete my privy purse prior to SMW...

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1 hour ago, Navy Bird said:

On Friday, we head to Edinburgh for a week

I got this far in the 2nd paragraph, and I thought I know where THIS is going to end up..... 

Sure enough...... 🤭

Well, have a good one! 

 

If only they were still using Constellations on the Atlantic route, eh? 

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