christian Boehm Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 Hi all About 25 years ago I built a diorama including a Spit Vb. The chosen plane was WX ○ C ( AA853) of Stefan Witozenc, 302 polish squadron in summer 1942. ( see picture) This plane wore the white recognition stripes of Operation Ruther (although, as now known, some were still carried on Operation Jubilee on Dieppe in august). I painted the nose strips, according with the profile in “Spit in action- squadron signal”, but actually what about the upp-elevator strips ? It seems they were differently applied from plane to plane, sometimes with or without elevator strips, and , more, with different sorts of strips – see SAM Combat colors n°8 - page 35). I didn’t paint them but now I am in doubt. In the French Mag “Aero Journal Special N°7 – Spit sur l’Europe”, on page 27, a full profile page shows 4 elevator strips and , surprisingly , large white bands across the wings (see picture) What is not clear is if that plane carried the upp-elevator 4 stripes I don’t remember if, by the time I built the model, I had a picture of Witozenc’s plane; I guess not … but now I don’t find any to answer my question. Anyway it’s not sure a picture would clearly show these details. What do you think , modelling guys ? Thanks for help christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 39 minutes ago, christian Boehm said: ...white recognition stripes of Operation Ruther (although, as now known, some were still carried on Operation Jubilee on Dieppe in august Is that (still carried at Dieppe) "known"? I ask because of the constant confusion concerning these stripes. It is Rutter, btw. Without going to check, so beware, but my memory is that the stripes were only on the stabilizer, not the elevator. And the wing stripe IS a surprise to me, and one I doubt without other evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303sqn Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 It is mostly bunkum, invented by people who make everything up and find nothing out. In this case the nincompoops have even promoted a Polish officer to a position he never held. The name Witorzeńć is conspicuous by is absence from operations concerning Dieppe, Rutter or Jubilee. That’s because he wasn’t there. In the summer of 1942 he commanded the 2nd Polish Wing and never commanded the the 1st Polish Wing, ever. Squadron records and his logbook show that he never flew this Spitfire. Not very surprising as he was ‘up north’ at kirton-in-Lindsey while AA853 was ‘down south’ with 302 Squadron based at Heston. Man and machine were hundreds of mikes apart. At Kirton, Witorzeńć’s personal aircraft was AD192. Orders for special markings for Operation Rutter were issued on 4th and 7th July and removed after 11th July. I have never seen any evidence that they were still around at the time of Operation Jubilee. After Rutter was cancelled, it was not postponed, it was not intended at thte time to run it at a later date, squadrons returned to their home bases. When it was reinstated as Jubilee no orders were issued for special markings. As part of the concentration for Operation Rutter 302 Squadron moved to Croydon where the special markings were applied 6th July. After Rutter was cancelled the Squadron returned to Heston. Because of a series of accidents at Croydon it was deemed unsuitable for Spitfire operations and it was decided not to use it for Operation Jubilee. On the 19th August AA583 was flown by Beyer on air sea rescue patrol, recalled when in the air. In the afternoon it was flown by Urbanski, patrol over Dieppe area covwring withdrawl of troops. On 29th August it is recorded as being flown by Kaminski rescue to Manston 10.35 - 11.00, rescue from Manston 11.35 to 12.40. The following film footage was shot on 6th July during preparations for Operation Rutter. The tail of an aircraft cane been seen about 50 seconds in. There are no stripes on the elevators. The air Ministry always seems to have concerns over painting control surfaces as it might affect their balance. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060021075#.WfTA4dmsvrg.facebook 6 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted August 4, 2019 Share Posted August 4, 2019 @Troy Smith if you haven't seen this film, look from about 5:00... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christian Boehm Posted August 4, 2019 Author Share Posted August 4, 2019 thanks a lot for all these very interesting information , with growing true histories It doesn't astonish me that so much false documentations and texts run around the litterature on the 2nd picture of WX ° C, the stabilizer stripes are obvious I will Watch the film Thanks +++ christian 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted August 4, 2019 Share Posted August 4, 2019 9 hours ago, 303sqn said: ....... https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060021075#.WfTA4dmsvrg.facebook Those hurricanes, 👍👍👍 never knew about them Anyone got codes and serial tie ups for any of them ? cheers jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted August 4, 2019 Share Posted August 4, 2019 There are a number of code/serial links known for 174 (ex-607) Sq Hurribombers, although which would actually be right for these particular aircraft is not certain, at least to me. Send a pm. Interesting to see an erk demonstrating cleaning the barrels of the guns, even when there was no gun in that hole! (Because of the bomb carrier filling that space in the wing.). Also the mix of DH and Rotol props on the Spots. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted August 4, 2019 Share Posted August 4, 2019 4 hours ago, brewerjerry said: Those hurricanes, 👍👍👍 never knew about them Anyone got codes and serial tie ups for any of them ? 3 hours ago, Graham Boak said: There are a number of code/serial links known for 174 (ex-607) Sq Hurribombers, although which would actually be right for these particular aircraft is not certain, at least to me. Send a pm. Note one plane is Mauritius VII, as a presentation aircraft, a serial is more likely yo be known. Great bit of film, well worth some screen grabs, lots of fascinating detail... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christian Boehm Posted August 4, 2019 Author Share Posted August 4, 2019 Again thanks to the "303 polish squadron" specialist ! This film is just fantastic and I was happy (Iam french) to see such pictures about the 340 FF squadron About the tail IDs stripes , sorry ! I must apologize , I confused stabilizer and elevator. And you're right , only the fixed parts are painted. So , at the end , quite all published profiles of "Rutter op bands" are false ! ( even the very good "On target" Profiles n°4 - J. Freeman) What I found great , as well, is the chalk planned lines before painting on the Huricane's nose; Congratulations ! your message was very helpful! christian PS : I will re-check my model ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sky dancer Posted August 4, 2019 Share Posted August 4, 2019 Hi all, A different squadron (331 Sqn.), but some airframes had "Rutter" stripes on tailplane and elevator:- Can't remember source of photo, unfortunately. Regards to all, SD 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fubar57 Posted August 4, 2019 Share Posted August 4, 2019 It belonged to Lt. Rolfe Berg. Shot down an Fw 190 plus damaged two more over Dieppe. He was then hit himself and bailed out 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted August 4, 2019 Share Posted August 4, 2019 XP.G BE421 and XP.Y BE684 are the two nearest aircraft in a line-up of 174's Hurricanes at the unit's formation. G was certainly ex-607 AF.G. BE684 is listed as being with 607 and then 274 - as the latter unit was in the desert we can go with the photo and assume 174 was meant. AF.K BE490 is also listed as going from 607 to 274 - I'd read this as 174 again as the aircraft seem to have been simply handed over (with half of the pilots) and only the unit codes changed. This was not long before Dieppe, I don't have the exact dates to hand. One of the recently restored Hurricanes has carried XP.G codes, so there are several photos - the restoration is convincing but sadly to get a repaint. G was the aircraft of J E Brookes, and was lost 2/6/42 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted August 4, 2019 Share Posted August 4, 2019 Hi I am now staring to wonder what other aircraft might have carried the cancelled op rutter markings wonder if there is a squadron order of battle list somewhere i suppose somewhere deep in the NA Kew I miss my recce trips to Kew, I gotta find an excuse for a trip across the pond again in the not to distant future cheers jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafetyDad Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 I'm not a Hurricane buff so stand to make a bit of a fool of myself here, but is the Hurricane shown having its guns cleaned around 6:40 also fitted with exhaust glare shields on the fuselage sides? And the chalk? markings for the stripes yet to be applied - that's just great. Never seen that before. Those stripes are pretty neatly applied on both Hurricanes and Spitfires. SD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christian Boehm Posted August 5, 2019 Author Share Posted August 5, 2019 13 hours ago, Sky dancer said: Hi all, A different squadron (331 Sqn.), but some airframes had "Rutter" stripes on tailplane and elevator:- Can't remember source of photo, unfortunately. Regards to all, SD Thanks sky dancer So the theoretical instructions and the practice are two different things…. Once will notice , as well , the different (on the tips) application of stripes. Regarding the doc, there 's a 4 views profile of FN°B in "Combat Colours N°8 (N. robinson)" page 35. And it seems right, as close to SD's photo. And I must admit , on page 34, WX°C is noted as "possibly" (!) Witorzeńć's plane Neil Robinson ( known asa well instructed guy for spitfire history) adds that ID stripes remaining cases for Jubilee could be an "assumption"... christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 44 minutes ago, christian Boehm said: Once will notice , as well , the different (on the tips) application of stripes. Page115 of Volume 2 of Cato Guhnfeldt's history of 331 and 332 Sqns has a photo of a 332 groundcrew member applying the stripes to the upper wings of AH-A (most probably W3125). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christian Boehm Posted August 5, 2019 Author Share Posted August 5, 2019 I don't own this book You mean wing stripes like the 4 view picture of WX°C that I scanned above on these pages ? By now nobody sharing our discussion saw such ones So it's very interesting Could you scan it ? thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 1 hour ago, SafetyDad said: but is the Hurricane shown having its guns cleaned around 6:40 also fitted with exhaust glare shields on the fuselage sides? yes, anti glare shields. 1 hour ago, SafetyDad said: And the chalk? markings for the stripes yet to be applied - that's just great. Never seen that before. Yes, and that's a new one for me as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 (edited) Brookes wrote of flying 607 Sq Hurricanes on night missions in Ian Allan's Hurricanes in Action. So presumably 174 did the same. I only know of one 607 Hurribomber with these shields, other photos lack them. Possibly these date to before the unit began any night operations, or perhaps only one Flight undertook those? It's not as though we have a lot of photos to work on. I should however have added AF.L BE505, probably Yates' aircraft and passed on to 174 on 2/3/42. I do have a photo of Brookes in front of XP.K xxxx6 (possibly BE506), with the uppersurface grey being very much lighter than the underside, or that seen in other photos. Possibly a local attempt at the standard NF scheme? Or just another one of these highly controversial light Ocean Greys? Having (just now) looked up the date of Rutter, I suspect that all these ex-607 serials might have moved on but perhaps not. Edited August 5, 2019 by Graham Boak 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303sqn Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 12 hours ago, brewerjerry said: Hi I am now staring to wonder what other aircraft might have carried the cancelled op rutter markings wonder if there is a squadron order of battle list somewhere i suppose somewhere deep in the NA Kew I miss my recce trips to Kew, I gotta find an excuse for a trip across the pond again in the not to distant future cheers jerry The markings were to be applied to all single-engined fighters in 11 Group with the exception of Mustangs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 4 hours ago, 303sqn said: The markings were to be applied to all single-engined fighters in 11 Group with the exception of Mustangs. Hi Thanks, so likely just spit's n hurri's No tiffie's etc cheers jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 Whirlwind? Or was that a different exercise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 57 minutes ago, Graham Boak said: Whirlwind? Or was that a different exercise? Hi Both squadrons were out of the area, and no mention in their diaries i can see of op rutter I have the starkey option waiting for my 1:32 SH whirlwind when it ever comes out cheers jerry 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 1 hour ago, Graham Boak said: Whirlwind? Or was that a different exercise? cheers j-w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 27 minutes ago, JWM said: cheers j-w Noooo the old myth repeated many times one of many errors in the book, the markings are op starkey during dieppe 263 squadron was at colerne the aircraft being converted for fitting bomb racks mainly operational with a few convoy patrols off wales nothing flew on ops on the 19th august cheers jerry 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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