RAF Dark Green - which colour is the best match?

[Steben]

6 hours ago, Merlin said:

Hi,

I dont think I have Revell in my stash to paint out, as I have hardly any Revel due to Revell in the early days producing lousy paint and its sort of tainted its use to me ever since. I have Gloy, Compucolor, Precision paints, Aeromaster and DBI, the latter two were superb, but can count Revell on one hand.

 

Steben, and anyone, please try and photo in daylight circa midday with lights and flashes off, with paint strained and onto a smooth plastic flat surface, bit of plastic card 30thou is good as no warpage. I use 2inch x 2inch and a fine marker pen on 10mm at base for details. (make and number, enamels acrylics etc, spray setting.) Store these in a slide box or slide sleeve, box is best. Lay it when totally dry on the chart with both flat and no reflectance to sky, in a north light window. Painted out thinned for smooth results, several coats crossways to previous. or spray it. No spoons. flat can be compared to flat. It must have the same colour visible on any part of the surface. Ideally both masked with grey card and square holes as that stops camera altering its settings and allows us to compare perfectly, else I will have to sample the colours and recreate digitally.

 

Merlin

I understand what you are aiming at, but you do know the original swatches, Mike's swatches and many swatch books do not apply?

[Steben]

Compared to the RAF Museum VOL 3 swatches, 70.894 (not 897! Sorry) is a clear winner.... with runner up XF81 as very good given the reality of filters and scale effect.
70.888 is actually better as a SCC15 starting point ....

Edited June 9, 2021 by Steben

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Steben said:

70.897 is a clear winner....

 

I know Vallejo matches can be wonky....  But  RAL  7022!  Which Umbergrau, and not a good match to the Monogram RLM 70 chip..

 

Anyway, a quick  look at the RAL K7 classic deck,  its still light, nearest I can spot is to RAF Dark Green is  RAL 6003 Olivgrun,, which is a bit lighter. 

 

 I don't  have 70.897 AFAIK....   I'll have a look through the vallejo later, so can't comment on that, but again,  really unhelpful colour references from Vallejo,  as RAL 7022 is not a match for RLM 70.

 

the light is fading, but RAL 6012 Schwarzgrun seems the best for RLM 70.... which was Schwarzgrun...   

 

the fun just never ends...

 

 

 

[Rolls-Royce]

Troy, if your RAL K7 Classic deck is like mine, the swatches are glossy, which could complicate comparisons a bit.

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Rolls-Royce said:

Troy, if your RAL K7 Classic deck is like mine, the swatches are glossy, which could complicate comparisons a bit.

it is fairly glossy.   But does not change hue/saturation of a basic colour, though it can affect tone. 

 

More a comment  on Vallejo and their stated matches, as  RLM 70 AFAIK is a very dark green, Schwarzgrun,  not  a dark grey brown... which RAL 7022 is. 

It can't be both, and quite possibly is neither, which is blinkin' nuisance,  since to find out actually what is in a vallejo bottle it needs to be 'chipped' and taken from there.

 

And,   RAF Dark Green is a dark olive green.   IF Vallejo 70.897 matches that, then....well,  maybe someone should tell vallejo...

 

As you have the RAL deck, have a look at the ones I reference.   

 

cheers

T

[Rolls-Royce]

4 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

it is fairly glossy.   But does not change hue/saturation of a basic colour, though it can affect tone. 

 

More a comment  on Vallejo and their stated matches, as  RLM 70 AFAIK is a very dark green, Schwarzgrun,  not  a dark grey brown... which RAL 7022 is. 

It can't be both, and quite possibly is neither, which is blinkin' nuisance,  since to find out actually what is in a vallejo bottle it needs to be 'chipped' and taken from there.

 

And,   RAF Dark Green is a dark olive green.   IF Vallejo 70.897 matches that, then....well,  maybe someone should tell vallejo...

 

As you have the RAL deck, have a look at the ones I reference.   

 

cheers

T

Troy, as you say, the RAL 6003 is similar to, but lighter than, RAF Dark Green. My spectro shows a dE of 6.51 between the two, with the RAFM Dark Green at an L*a*b* of  34.1/-3.26/7.96 and RAL 6003 at 34.1/-6.00/13.6.  I happen to have Merrick and Kiroff at hand, and their RLM 70 from Volume One and RAL7022 measure out at dE 4.13, which is actually in the same range as a number of other RLM model paint equivalents I've measured so far (mostly claimed RLM 81 equivalents, last year). My RLM70 chip has an L*a*b* value of 26.9/ -2.86/0.61, while RAL 7022 reads at 28.3/-0.00/3.60.

 

I may have a bottle of 70.897. Let me take a look. If I do, I'll report back and do a reading as soon as I've had time to prepare a test swatch...

Edited June 9, 2021 by Rolls-Royce

[Steben]

Oops, sorry guys. I should have added the name for once.... it is 70.894. Vallejo. Russian olive/Fs34083/rlm80. I mistakenly wrote a 7 for a 4.... I feel a but silly now... but still a great colour choice out if the bottle.

 

I just contacted Nick about the vol3 book. His measurements tell they are simply spot on compared to the museum swatches, apart from "night".

[Rabbit Leader]

Although I have nothing of a ‘technical’ nature to add to this quite good conversation, from my own personal experience there’s no point getting the Dark Green right unless you have an equally as good Dark Earth, Ocean Grey, Medium Sea Grey (etc.) paint to use with the Dark Green. I’ve seen too many models (including my own) where one colour looks right, however is thrown off by the odd looking opposing colour. Anyway, like I said, not much to add however something to possibly discuss further here or in another thread. 
 

Cheers and carry-on.. Dave 

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

1 hour ago, Rabbit Leader said:

Although I have nothing of a ‘technical’ nature to add to this quite good conversation, from my own personal experience there’s no point getting the Dark Green right unless you have an equally as good Dark Earth, Ocean Grey, Medium Sea Grey (etc.) paint to use with the Dark Green. I’ve seen too many models (including my own) where one colour looks right, however is thrown off by the odd looking opposing colour. Anyway, like I said, not much to add however something to possibly discuss further here or in another thread. 
 

Cheers and carry-on.. Dave 

 

Absolutely. It's the relationship between the various colours on the model which matter most, and since most find it very difficult to eyeball them all as well as the necessary references required due to inherent issues with trying to work from memory, it shows that it's always worth having reliable starting points even if aiming for a heavily weathered model.

[Steben]

Quite typical vallejo to have great paints but with confusing and wrong names. At least xf81 is close to the thing it is called to match.

@Troy Smith @Rolls-Royce to make sure: 70.894...

[Rolls-Royce]

4 hours ago, Steben said:

Quite typical vallejo to have great paints but with confusing and wrong names. At least xf81 is close to the thing it is called to match.

@Troy Smith @Rolls-Royce to make sure: 70.894...

I have 70.894 on hand, and measured it some time ago against the RAFM book chip. It's very close, at 1.4 dE. Another close contender in the Vallejo line is 70.892 Yellow Olive (RAL 6008 - FS34096) at 1.64 dE. A choice between these two would come down to a modeler's personal preferences and visual acuity, as differences are present but very slight.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Rolls-Royce

[Steben]

1 hour ago, Rolls-Royce said:

I have 70.894 on hand, and measured it some time ago against the RAFM book chip. It's very close, at 1.4 dE. Another close contender in the Vallejo line is 70.892 Yellow Olive (RAL 6008 - FS34096) at 1.64 dE. A choice between these two would come down to a modeler's personal preferences and visual acuity, as differences are present but very slight.

Again, only the paint number is relevant, given the fact it will be way more off with both RAL 6008 and fs34096. Nor is yellow olive linked to RAL 6008.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Steben

[Rolls-Royce]

52 minutes ago, Steben said:

Again, only the paint number is relevant, given the fact it will be way more off with both RAL 6008 and fs34096. Nor is yellow olive linked to RAL 6008.

Don't get too locked in on that. I only added the description as it's on the label, and some of our folks may more easily remember it than the Vallejo stock number. The important things are the 70.xxx number and the dE... 

Edited June 9, 2021 by Rolls-Royce

[fishplanebeer]

Like RL I have no technical input to make but whole heartedly agree with Jamie that it is far more vital that the colour combines and sits well with the others that are also applied as this is what will make or break the colour scheme. That's why I stick with Colourcoats paints as they create the desired overall effect and  I'm not too concerned about spectrometer readings and the like as this seems to be an awful amount of detail and unlikely to ever result in a consensus of opinion.

 

In addition when you take into account the desired scale effect of the paint, such as when using RLM66 for Luftwaffe cockpit interiors (I use RLM74 instead to create the scale effect in 72nd scale) then exact matches to a given original source sort of becomes questionable IMHO.

 

Regards

Colin.

[Antti_K]

Hello guys,

 

years ago I did an experiment; not very scientific but great fun. It all started when I was a little suspicious about the whole "scale colour" effect, but I had to admit that those guys who had written books about scale aircraft model colours were right.

 

I painted two plates (roughly the size of an A3) with Xtracolor RAF Dark Green and RAF Dark Sea Grey. The plates were then attached onto the outer wall of an aircraft hangar and I took my position 72 feet away. It was mid-summer here in Finland (latitude 60N) and sky clear conditions prevailed. Using a colour fan I found the "Scale colours". It was then pretty easy to mix a perfect scale colour matches for both Full Scale Colours.

 

Remembering what Ian Huntley wrote in the 1970s I set to work. Dark Green was mixed of Humbrol enamels 75 and 94. Dark Sea Grey was a little more problematic as it required more bright blue and matt white.

 

After all the trouble I only built two models using Scale Colour...

 

Here is my Testors Swift pictured on top of the RAF Museum colour chart showing the "measured" Scale Colour:

 

 

 

Note that the Dark Sea Grey had to be very light to match the table 72 feet away.

 

Cheers,

Antti

[Steben]

3 hours ago, Rolls-Royce said:

Don't get too locked in on that. I only added the description as it's on the label, and some of our folks may more easily remember it than the Vallejo stock number. The important things are the 70.xxx number and the dE... 

Yes 😁 exactly, wasn't aiming at you. On the contrary. The statement about the folks is painfully true but not their fault.
I mean .... RAL6008 it is not, nor is it Yellow Olive and 6008 is not yellow olive.... How cruel can a paint manufacturer be towards the modeling community 😕 ?

[Rolls-Royce]

1 hour ago, fishplanebeer said:

... That's why I stick with Colourcoats paints as they create the desired overall effect and  I'm not too concerned about spectrometer readings and the like as this seems to be an awful amount of detail and unlikely to ever result in a consensus of opinion...

 

Regards

Colin.

You may not be, but rest assured that Jamie is. It's how he obtains those colors that create "the desired overall effect". 😀

Edited June 9, 2021 by Rolls-Royce

[Steben]

9 minutes ago, Antti_K said:

Hello guys,

 

years ago I did an experiment; not very scientific but great fun. It all started when I was a little suspicious about the whole "scale colour" effect, but I had to admit that those guys who had written books about scale aircraft model colours were right.

 

I painted two plates (roughly the size of an A3) with Xtracolor RAF Dark Green and RAF Dark Sea Grey. The plates were then attached onto the outer wall of an aircraft hangar and I took my position 72 feet away. It was mid-summer here in Finland (latitude 60N) and sky clear conditions prevailed. Using a colour fan I found the "Scale colours". It was then pretty easy to mix a perfect scale colour matches for both Full Scale Colours.

 

Remembering what Ian Huntley wrote in the 1970s I set to work. Dark Green was mixed of Humbrol enamels 75 and 94. Dark Sea Grey was a little more problematic as it required more bright blue and matt white.

 

After all the trouble I only built two models using Scale Colour...

 

Here is my Testors Swift pictured on top of the RAF Museum colour chart showing the "measured" Scale Colour:

 

 

 

Note that the Dark Sea Grey had to be very light to match the table 72 feet away.

 

Cheers,

Antti

 The thing about scale effect is not just in the pure distance of the photographic film.
Our eyes and brains react to the information surrounding the colours as well. the further the real object is away, the more information you have around it.

[Rolls-Royce]

5 minutes ago, Steben said:

Yes 😁 exactly, wasn't aiming at you. On the contrary. The statement about the folks is painfully true but not their fault.
I mean .... RAL6008 it is not, nor is it Yellow Olive and 6008 is not yellow olive.... How cruel can a paint manufacturer be towards the modeling community 😕 ?

No worries, Steben. It's all good.

[Steben]

11 minutes ago, Steben said:

Yes 😁 exactly, wasn't aiming at you. On the contrary. The statement about the folks is painfully true but not their fault.
I mean .... RAL6008 it is not, nor is it Yellow Olive and 6008 is not yellow olive.... How cruel can a paint manufacturer be towards the modeling community 😕 ?

@Rolls-Royce Revell for example states on colour 42 - which it calls yellow olive - that it does not greatly match RAL 6014 but comes close, whereas other colours do match (of which I recently tested some and they did).
I mean, companies as such (German, honest, straightforward) just are set in the shade of companies that throw with labels and names as if it were the apocalypse.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Steben

[Antti_K]

6 minutes ago, Steben said:

 The thing about scale effect is not just in the pure distance of the photographic film.
Our eyes and brains react to the information surrounding the colours as well. the further the real object is away, the more information you have around it.

 

Hello Steben,

 

I wasn't using a camera but Mark 1 Eyeball and a hand-held colour fan and a "mask" hiding the surroundings. Although the wall where I attached the specimen was light grey in colour, it was in a shadow. So the colour temperature was of course higher than where i stood.

 

Do you use "Scale Colour" for your models?

 

Cheers,

Antti

[Steben]

37 minutes ago, Antti_K said:

 

Hello Steben,

 

I wasn't using a camera but Mark 1 Eyeball and a hand-held colour fan and a "mask" hiding the surroundings. Although the wall where I attached the specimen was light grey in colour, it was in a shadow. So the colour temperature was of course higher than where i stood.

 

Do you use "Scale Colour" for your models?

 

Cheers,

Antti

The little amount of models I made and make usually are done with preshade on light grey primer followed by thin coats of as much real deal as possible.
The thinner the coat the more highlighted it is.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Steben

[Antti_K]

I gave up with "scale colours" after two examples and since then have tried to use as accurate colour as possible. After all it was simple reasoning for me, as I thought that the paint manufacturers try to get their product as close as possible. Or at least they used to try.

 

I'm still learning to use an airbrush. Most of my models are still painted with a paint brush and Humbrol enamels. Old school, I know... Maybe one day😉

 

Cheers,

Antti

[Merlin]

Hi,

I also did a scale colour test over a 72ft long test distance in my garden, midday etc, the distance for 1/72 aircraft held 1ft from the eye.

I painted out a 2ft x 2ft sheet with RLM02, then a swatch with rlm02 and steps of increasing white added, ending at the Monogram book suggested amount for 1/72.

Took a grey card with hole and placed over the swatch with a second hole immediate above that for viewing the 2ft square, and at 72ft from the test sheet mounted vertical, I started at the suggested white mix, way off, crazy in fact, I ran it along until I got a match, found one, removed card, it was the neat RLM02 !

 

I have all the RAF Greens, Browns, Skys etc now after many ££££ and will spray each one out, then lay all against the MAP paints in Vol3, see what matches best, photo in north light midday cloudy sky, no blue influence as blue sky gives, and post results here. Ditto Luftwaffe on a new thread I will make.

Each day sees an unforeseen task or ten take over ! My gremlins can be little bast&^%s at times. Its going to take some time.

The main problem is manufacturers are matching to BS381C and not MAP, except Jamie., if they even match to anything., and as I have now found BS381C DOES NOT MATCH MAP.

There are far too many models appearing made in an orangey brown and not so dark olive green , more a yellowy hint to it, looking just WRONG compared to MAP colours and even restored aircraft known to be in the right colours, and as Steve of Warbird Colours says, Vol 3 is the bible, so lets see which brands are at fault.

 

Merlin

[Troy Smith]

2 hours ago, Merlin said:

now after many ££££

sounds like you need a spectrometer,   they are fairly expensive, but if you are that interested/devoted/obsessed (delete as appropriate) than it maybe a worthwhile investment.

2 hours ago, Merlin said:

and as I have now found BS381C DOES NOT MATCH MAP.

Some does not, some does , or  is close enough to be acceptable in real world paint manufacture tolerance.

For both these,  @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies has posted information,  I can have a search, but right now I need to switch off so I'm not going thread hunting.