1/200 Trumpeter HMS Nelson

[ArtickWarspite]

Thanks @Ex-FAAWAFU, I wasn't aware the jackstaff would be removed completely when at sea. Not too sure about what type of flags yet, but yes, it makes sense to have sailors below them. 

[Our Ned]

If the intention is to depict the ship accurately in her 1944 camouflage scheme, then do not fit the quadruple 40mm Bofors mountings.  These were fitted in her 1944-45 refit, after which she wore the scheme shown on the boxlid.  The model depicts the configuration after this refit; to show her in her multi-coloured scheme other changes would be needed (reduction in light anti-aircraft armament, reinstatement of armoured director hood forward of the bridge, rearrangement of boat storage etc).

 

Note that there are several examples of completed models of NELSON purporting to represent her D-Day configuration which depict the Bofors mountings - this is incorrect!

 

Alternatively, if depicting her after her 1944-45 refit, the shields should be fitted to the Bofors mountings. Photos taken as she left New York show them, as does a photo taken just after the war.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Our Ned
Bofors shields paragraph added

[ArtickWarspite]

Quick post for today. Will get back to this after the weekend.

 

[Stew Dapple]

Nicely done mate

 

Cheers,

 

Stew

[Chewbacca]

There's a very useful reference detailing what ensigns, standards and pennants etc are flown when and why can be found here: https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/-/media/royal-navy-responsive/documents/reference-library/brd2/ch91.pdf  This is the actual RN reference book so will be correct.  However, I would caveat that by saying is currently correct and different regulations may have applied during WW2 (though the main ones I am pretty sure were the same).  Note that as Crisp says above, NELSON was routinely used as a flagship so would have flown his flag but depending upon the time you are depicting NELSON and whether it was a Rear, Vice or Full Admiral onboard will dictate which particular flag to use.

 

As for signal flags, by all means use them but remember that every flag has a meaning when used singly or in conjunction with others and are different between military use and the commercial international signal flags.  So just think about which ones you use and why,  Whilst I am up speed on current meanings, signal flags used in WW2 were very different and so you would need to check an appropriate reference.  This one os quite good: https://www.flaginstitute.org/pdfs/Barrie Kent.pdf

 

As for manning, it would be unusual in cruising watches for weapons to be manned, but then equally unusual in wartime for a ship to be in cruising watches.  Much more likely to be in defence watches (a 1 in 2 system whereby half the ship's company is on watch at any one time) and under those circumstances, upperdeck weapons would be manned albeit with reduced numbers 

[ArnoldAmbrose]

1 hour ago, Chewbacca said:

unusual in wartime for a ship to be in cruising watches.  Much more likely to be in defence watches (a 1 in 2 system whereby half the ship's company is on watch at any one time)

Gidday, Chewy I admit to being a little ignorant as to the difference between the two, thanks for the explanation. Regards, Jeff.

[ArtickWarspite]

On 9/12/2019 at 4:06 AM, Our Ned said:

If the intention is to depict the ship accurately in her 1944 camouflage scheme, then do not fit the quadruple 40mm Bofors mountings.  These were fitted in her 1944-45 refit, after which she wore the scheme shown on the boxlid.  The model depicts the configuration after this refit; to show her in her multi-coloured scheme other changes would be needed (reduction in light anti-aircraft armament, reinstatement of armoured director hood forward of the bridge, rearrangement of boat storage etc).

 

Note that there are several examples of completed models of NELSON purporting to represent her D-Day configuration which depict the Bofors mountings - this is incorrect!

 

Alternatively, if depicting her after her 1944-45 refit, the shields should be fitted to the Bofors mountings. Photos taken as she left New York show them, as does a photo taken just after the war.

Thanks, I appreciate the extra information and on the ships state in 1944. Can't say I've had much luck researching the ships appearance accurately during this time.

 

...you do know that I have just finished x4 of these 40mm Bofor mounts right?? :S If these mounts weren't there in early-mid 44, what would have been there in it's place? Also, is there any site which shows these notable changes? 

You can imagine I'd like to save many weeks/months from building items that won't actually be needed. 

 

 

 

 

[ArtickWarspite]

On 9/14/2019 at 9:28 PM, Chewbacca said:

There's a very useful reference detailing what ensigns, standards and pennants etc are flown when and why can be found here: https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/-/media/royal-navy-responsive/documents/reference-library/brd2/ch91.pdf  This is the actual RN reference book so will be correct.  However, I would caveat that by saying is currently correct and different regulations may have applied during WW2 (though the main ones I am pretty sure were the same).  Note that as Crisp says above, NELSON was routinely used as a flagship so would have flown his flag but depending upon the time you are depicting NELSON and whether it was a Rear, Vice or Full Admiral onboard will dictate which particular flag to use.

 

As for signal flags, by all means use them but remember that every flag has a meaning when used singly or in conjunction with others and are different between military use and the commercial international signal flags.  So just think about which ones you use and why,  Whilst I am up speed on current meanings, signal flags used in WW2 were very different and so you would need to check an appropriate reference.  This one os quite good: https://www.flaginstitute.org/pdfs/Barrie Kent.pdf

 

As for manning, it would be unusual in cruising watches for weapons to be manned, but then equally unusual in wartime for a ship to be in cruising watches.  Much more likely to be in defence watches (a 1 in 2 system whereby half the ship's company is on watch at any one time) and under those circumstances, upperdeck weapons would be manned albeit with reduced numbers 

Thanks @Chewbacca, that pretty will pretty much answer all my questions regarding the signals. When time allows I will read through these properly.

 

Makes sense in wartime for defence watches. I will go away and look at figures which could represent this. Would mundane tasks like deck scrubbing etc still be happening when the ship was on a defence watch?

[Our Ned]

The forward pair of quadruple 40mm Bofors, their platform and associated supports replaced the armoured director hood on top of the conning tower ahead of the bridge.  The after pair and their sponsons were new additions when the boat deck was remodelled and boat stowage reduced/rearranged.  To backdate to early-mid 44, 24 of the 20mm Oerlikons (and their "tubs, ready-use lockers etc) must also be omitted; references are unclear, but some of: four of those on the foc's'le, the two abreast "B" 16" turret, two of those atop "C" turret, two of those abreast the after edge of the tower bridge at shelter-deck level, all ten of those at shelter-deck level on the boat deck, the six at conning-tower platform level, the after one of the three each side on the sponson at projector-platform level and the four on platforms on the tripod mainmast.

 

The photos at https://i.redd.it/bgvu8n9iz0hy.jpg and https://www.naval-encyclopedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Nov1942_NA-Torch-Nelson.jpg may help.

 

Sorry I didn't read the thread before you started on the Bofors mountings!

[ArnoldAmbrose]

Gidday, I built an Airfix Nelson many years ago, almost OOB, I did a few minor alterations. One thing about the kit I thought was rubbish were the single 4.7s. However looking at the first of Ned's photos immediately above shows them to be surprisingly accurate. Thanks Ned. I don't know the time frame the model was to represent, it was certainly cleaner and less cluttered than what the photo showed. My avenues of research were much more limited back then. Maybe I should redo it.

 

23 hours ago, ArtickWarspite said:

Would mundane tasks like deck scrubbing etc still be happening when the ship was on a defence watch?

Possibly. Some routine work would have to be done I would think, maybe by the off-duty watch in the fore-noon, but again I'll admit to not being certain here.

     As for your quad 40mm Bofors, I think it would be a shame not to use them, after all the work you've done on them. Unless you can use them elsewhere. Can you model the ship as from when they were fitted? Ultimately it's your model, your decision. HTH. Regards, Jeff.

[ArtickWarspite]

Thanks for that @Our Ned, I have had a close look at those images, but it's clear that you are far more familiar with this than I am. I'll spend some time and have a closer look and cross reference the differences with my instructions.

 

Will have a look around and see if there are any more images. 

[ArtickWarspite]

7 minutes ago, ArnoldAmbrose said:

Gidday, I built an Airfix Nelson many years ago, almost OOB, I did a few minor alterations. One thing about the kit I thought was rubbish were the single 4.7s. However looking at the first of Ned's photos immediately above shows them to be surprisingly accurate. Thanks Ned. I don't know the time frame the model was to represent, it was certainly cleaner and less cluttered than what the photo showed. My avenues of research were much more limited back then. Maybe I should redo it.

 

Possibly. Some routine work would have to be done I would think, maybe by the off-duty watch in the fore-noon, but again I'll admit to not being certain here.

     As for your quad 40mm Bofors, I think it would be a shame not to use them, after all the work you've done on them. Unless you can use them elsewhere. Can you model the ship as from when they were fitted? Ultimately it's your model, your decision. HTH. Regards, Jeff.

I'll have a good crack at trying to determine what was on the 44 version and build accordingly, but if there are parts that can't be distinguished, then I'll probably go with what is in the instructions. 

 

At the end of the day, while I want to be as accurate as possible, and spend time researching the ship, there will no doubt be an element of aesthetic licencing included where I'll probably put things which may be incorrect. But in the greater scheme of things, visual impact is also an important part, so it'll be a challenge finding the right balance.

[Chewbacca]

On ‎16‎/‎09‎/‎2019 at 02:37, ArtickWarspite said:

Thanks @Chewbacca, that pretty will pretty much answer all my questions regarding the signals. When time allows I will read through these properly.

 

Makes sense in wartime for defence watches. I will go away and look at figures which could represent this. Would mundane tasks like deck scrubbing etc still be happening when the ship was on a defence watch?

I'm speaking now from my experience of the RN over the last 40 years rather than having done any detailed research into watch routines in WW2, but even in defence watches there are certain things that have to be done like cleaning/eating/pot wash/routine maintenance etc and defence watches are 98% boredom.  So there are some people who are assigned to those duties one in two anyway, such as galley staff and communal party.  I would routinely relax one or two at a time from my Ops Room watch to scrub the flats for maybe 20-30 minute stints and then swap people around.  Similarly it is possible to do light upperdeck maintenance in the vicinity of your weapon, so long as you can immediately close up if a potential threat is detected.

[ArtickWarspite]

After a few days away teaching a painting workshop, I made it back to the building table. After all those gun mounts, I felt like doing something different, so I'm having a crack at the mainmast. Here's where we are at currently.

 

[ArtickWarspite]

The mast has been really enjoyable to build so far. Considering my average skills, it has come together really well. There was a small issue where the bottom resin part was really unclear about which way to install the top mast. I ended up drilling a hole in the top, as it looks like the bottom is where the top of the tripod mast meet. The instructions could have been much clearer on this point. I also had to sand the top of the mast to get the top rings through, but aside from that it was lots of fun putting together. 

There is much more to go on this mast section, but at this stage I'm unsure just how much to assemble and fix in place, as I want to keep components separate where necessary to make painting easier. 

 

-For anyone building one of these in future, it's worth noting that finding the right pieces of brass can be troublesome, as many look alike and they are not numbered. However, the images of the front instruction page are 1/1 scale, so it is much easier to find the right one by lining it up with the image. 

-The ring holes that attach to the brass masts do not have detailed instruction on how to fold them, but upon close inspection they are pretty self explanatory.

-All Photo Etch is numbered, and all the mast parts required are on the one fret, as are the parts for the AA guns, quad mounts etc. This does make finding the parts much easier and less time consuming.

-Also, pay close attention to the resin part at the top of the mast (see above)

 

[DJJunis]

This is really epic. Wonderful craftsmanship.

 

All the Best!

Don

[ArtickWarspite]

Some more test fitting.. 

 

[Chewbacca]

Nice brasswork.  Almost seems a shame to paint it!

[ArtickWarspite]

@Chewbacca I'm worried it won't have the same effect painted up too, though at present it'll be a while before it is painted as I'm still trying to secure the paints required. 

 

Admittedly the remaining parts of the mast weren't without issue. The instructions started jumping pages, where the main mast would be assembled on one page and the radar assembled on another (making no mention that you'll require x2 of these). There's no information on how to install the radar, and that part of the assembly became a bit ambiguous where the radar was facing one way then in the next picture was facing the other way. As a result I glued it on the wrong way around and only noticed it when the springy wire thingy was facing aft. Therefore, I had to debond the whole antenna, redo it and as a result, isn't lined up perfectly. But that's ok, it's minor enough (and too delicate) to do again. 

Furthermore, the instruction layout is a bit disjointed, as now that I have built the main mast, the next step is to make the derrick, and then the main mast supports. I have no idea how the masts supports are going to be installed with all that fragile stuff on top. The next few bench sessions will be quite interesting...

 

[Courageous]

That looks lovely.

 

Stuart

[ArtickWarspite]

Almost there now, just have to add some more hooks to the main derrick (which will cause some problems). After fitting the mast in place, it felt like the mast from the starfish upwards wasn't exactly straight- but everything was lined up correctly, so I have drilled a hole in the deck so the front pillar of the mast can sit a touch deeper straightening out the mast. 

 

I won't lie- this has been challenging, and the instructions on the main derrick are really unclear, poorly illustrated and involves a lot of guesswork. But that's why we do this right? ;S

 

After the remaining hooks & tiny bits go in, then it'll be onto the next step which may be adding the platforms to the mast.

 

 

Edited October 4, 2019 by ArtickWarspite

[ArtickWarspite]

Been a quiet week, as I have started working on the last of the small armament. A lot of detail here will be lost once the gun cover goes on, but it's very detailed!

 

[Ripaman]

Wow all that detail will just shine once you get a coat of paint on them, lovely brass work 

 

Regards

Richard

[ArtickWarspite]

4 out of 6 pretty much ready..

 

[Courageous]

Very smart, should paint up very nicely.

 

Stuart