Soviet Polar Siebel Si204D in Avia Arktika CCCP 1947: were they orange or silver??

[28ZComeback]

Does anyone know if the Aeroflot Sibel Si204’s employed in postwar Siberia and the Arctic were orange or silver? I have seen examples of both, in drawings. A very thoughtful modeler on this site depicted his Sibel 204D H-398 In orange, (which appears accurate since the Soviets painted their polar Pe-8s and Mi-2 and Mi-4 in bright orange). Thank you and here attached is a drawing of the plane in silver. 

 

http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/f/339/1_o/0/1

Edited July 28, 2019 by 28ZComeback
Spelling

[Floggerman]

According to the black-and-white pics from these planes I'd say, this model is very close to reality:

https://karopka.ru/community/user/6776/?MODEL=245938

[Aardvark]

11 hours ago, 28ZComeback said:

Does anyone know if the Aeroflot Sibel Si204’s employed in postwar Siberia and the Arctic were orange or silver? I have seen examples of both, in drawings. A very thoughtful modeler on this site depicted his Sibel 204D H-398 In orange, (which appears accurate since the Soviets painted their polar Pe-8s and Mi-2 and Mi-4 in bright orange). Thank you and here attached is a drawing of the plane in silver. 

 

http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/f/339/1_o/0/1

???

I don't understand....You compare green or grey/blue with probably red Sibel 204 H-376 white 

with silver Sibel 204D H-398 black

It's difference aircraft!!!

One has Sovier registration number "H-376 white"  and the other "Н-389 black" on art & "H-399 black" on photo:

Probably RLM 02:

Soviet Force officialy captured as minimum 9 Si-204 but in fact was more, because many Si-204 was unregistered and use as a connected plane at headquarters 

Probably no was general paint Soviet standard for Si-204, what for? It's was temporarily aircraft before An-2, IL-14 e.t.c.

8 hours ago, Floggerman said:

According to the black-and-white pics from these planes I'd say, this model is very close to reality:

https://karopka.ru/community/user/6776/?MODEL=245938

???

It's something about "what-if"....

...as written author:

"These are all facts, but then my assumptions follow (it may very well be completely wrong). Little is known about the use of Zibele. The plane turned out to be unsuitable for flights in the High North, and after a series of accidents and catastrophes they were transferred to other departments.  Here's how they looked can be judged only by a few b / w photos, yes "yellow page" from some magazines.
  I decided to paint the issue somewhat differently. Green protective — as most of the Li-2 GAs were painted, plus the bright red wing parts, keel washers on the outside, engine hoods and nose fuselage, i.e. made the aircraft as noticeable as possible  snow from the standard green-blue.
  The location of the stars and b / n-for b / w photos from the archive. With the number-lied, there was no such machine."

 

from topic:

 

""Quote:
 It seems to be seen gray-green (RLM 02) But this is the color of the Central Asian aircraft."

 Yes, there were such people. The flight flew well in the mountains. Most likely they were all like that, and the “northern” ones were simply painted in red or orange (by the way, also a controversial topic)."

 

"It was because of his ideas with color that he changed w / n (as planned). The 376th most likely was gray-red (or some other), the tone of the engines and the nose part is slightly darker than the fuselage, and if I convert my  option in b / w, get the opposite"

 

"Yes ... if not red, then it would be more reliable.  If we consider the well-known photo of the H-376 as a prototype, then it was most likely painted in the Soviet aircraft workshops at AMT-11 or AMT-12, the German RLM71 was probably preserved on the hoods.  Red paint in the 40s probably has not been widely used."

 

.....color predictions for black and white photos are so fascinating!

😁😁

 

 

 

Resource all photo:

https://karopka.ru/forum/forum189/topic16571/

 

B.R.

Serge

 

 

[28ZComeback]

Serge, thank you for the informative response with documentation. The photo of “black H-399” is very helpful. I tend to believe that it is RLM02 as well. Orange paint in the VVS and Aeroflot was not plentiful and appears only on dedicated arctic planes (such as the Mi-4,  and Pe-8). Thank you again.

Edited July 28, 2019 by 28ZComeback

[Aardvark]

40 minutes ago, 28ZComeback said:

Serge, thank you for the informative response with documentation. The photo of “black H-399” is very helpful. I tend to believe that it is RLM02 as well. Orange paint in the VVS and Aeroflot

"Aeroflot" for Si-204 it's not correct, because 

"From 1935 until the early 1990s, with the exception of the Czechoslovak airplanes for local airlines Aero-45/145, L-410 and the Polish aircraft for agricultural work M-15, Aeroflot operated aircrafts exclusively of Soviet manufacture, including  the number released at plants in the CMEA countries (GDR - Il-14, Poland - An-2, Mi-2, Czechoslovakia - Il-14) as part of socialist integration."

https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Аэрофлот

Of course "Aeroflot  - in the Soviet period - the generic name for all civil aviation of the USSR, " .....but 

continuation of the sentence.... ""Aeroflot" (MCX: AFLT) - in the Soviet period - the generalized name of all civil aviation of the USSR, consisting of many state-owned airlines."

for more correct:

"General Directorate of the Civil Air Fleet of the USSR"

https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Главное_управление_гражданского_воздушного_флота_при_СМ_СССР

later 

"Ministry civil aviation USSR"

https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Министерство_гражданской_авиации_СССР

So, silver(?) or RLM 02 was from

Regional 

Directorate of the Civil Air Fleet of the USSR, but Si-204  H-376 white 

was from 
 "Aviaarktika"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviaarktika

 

 

B.R.

Serge

 

[28ZComeback]

Serge I am indebted to you!  Thank you very much! 

[28ZComeback]

Serge I am indebted to you!  Thank you very much! 

9 hours ago, Aardvark said:

"Aeroflot" for Si-204 it's not correct, because 

"From 1935 until the early 1990s, with the exception of the Czechoslovak airplanes for local airlines Aero-45/145, L-410 and the Polish aircraft for agricultural work M-15, Aeroflot operated aircrafts exclusively of Soviet manufacture, including  the number released at plants in the CMEA countries (GDR - Il-14, Poland - An-2, Mi-2, Czechoslovakia - Il-14) as part of socialist integration."

https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Аэрофлот

Of course "Aeroflot  - in the Soviet period - the generic name for all civil aviation of the USSR, " .....but 

continuation of the sentence.... ""Aeroflot" (MCX: AFLT) - in the Soviet period - the generalized name of all civil aviation of the USSR, consisting of many state-owned airlines."

for more correct:

"General Directorate of the Civil Air Fleet of the USSR"

https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Главное_управление_гражданского_воздушного_флота_при_СМ_СССР

later 

"Ministry civil aviation USSR"

https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Министерство_гражданской_авиации_СССР

So, silver(?) or RLM 02 was from

Regional 

Directorate of the Civil Air Fleet of the USSR, but Si-204  H-376 white 

was from 
 "Aviaarktika"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviaarktika

 

 

B.R.

Serge

 

Serge, as to H-399, I think I will proceed with RLM02 and a red nose. It would appear to match the FW200, either silver/red or overall orange? What do you think?? 

Edited July 29, 2019 by 28ZComeback
Sp

[28ZComeback]

http://www.luftfahrtmuseum-hannover.de/index.php/en/neuigkeiten-2/aircraft-of-the-month/629-modell-des-monats-januar-2022

Edited July 29, 2019 by 28ZComeback
Sp

[Aardvark]

5 hours ago, 28ZComeback said:

Serge, as to H-399, I think I will proceed with RLM02 and a red nose. It would appear to match the FW200, either silver/red or overall orange? What do you think?? 

As I say:

18 hours ago, Aardvark said:

.....color predictions for black and white photos are so fascinating!

😁😁

Why did everyone decide that the color of the engine hood is red here:

and not black?

Formal logic dictates that the engine exhaust smokes, there are oil leaks, so from the point of view of the mechanics on black, everything will not be as noticeable as on red .... then why can't it be black?

Now this photo:

It's poor quality photo....but aircraft static displays on airfield. If the plane is long on the airfield, it is partially covered with covers.

Therefore, in this two  photo may not necessarily have painted the hoods of the engines, it can be just covers!

 

Of course if we had more quality photo...

 

Understand, I can say about some nuances that can be in the photo, but I can not predict the color in a black and white photo, I'm not Nostradamus! 😁

 

 

B.R.

Serge

Edited July 29, 2019 by Aardvark

[Graham Boak]

Re the number of Siebels in Soviet service.  I recall a comment from a leading British aviation journalist that he had visited the Siebel factory immediately postwar and seen that the Soviets were continuing production of the type.  This may mean no more than finishing those already on the line, of course.  He did describe the colour but I don't recall his exact words.  A light brown?

[Aardvark]

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

Re the number of Siebels in Soviet service.  I recall a comment from a leading British aviation journalist that he had visited the Siebel factory immediately postwar and seen that the Soviets were continuing production of the type.  This may mean no more than finishing those already on the line, of course.  He did describe the colour but I don't recall his exact words.  A light brown?

As written German Wikipedia:

https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siebel_Flugzeugwerke

in late WWII Siebel work on DFS-346. After war factory was  dismantled and removed to Soviet Union where return work on DFS-346. I think for Soviet Union DFS-346 was more priority than Si-204.

But Si-204 also manufactured Aero in Czech. And after war in Czech was return manufactured Si-204, as Me-262 & Czech version Bf.109 e.t.c., but no precedent official export former German aircraft from Czech to Soviet Union....

 

B.R.

Serge

 

[Graham Boak]

Visiting the Czech factory makes more sense, but production for the Soviets was mentioned.  Memory has finally provided the name Charles Cain, who much later founded the Profile series (with others).  Less certain memory says he saw examples with red stars.

 

Possibly these were Soviet prize examples returned for overhaul?  However it seems likely to me that the Soviets may well have collected finished examples and they will not have counted as being built for export.   The Soviets were not well off for light transports in this category, so such would be welcome prizes.

[Aardvark]

38 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Possibly these were Soviet prize examples returned for overhaul?  

Most likely version.

40 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

The Soviets were not well off for light transports in this category

Why?

See

Yakovlev Yak-6

&

Shcherbakov Shche-2

 

But they were not as comfortable as Si-204, but since this category of aircraft was used as VIP-transport priorities Si-204 obviously.

Also have/use prize it's more prestige!

 

B.R.

Serge

 

[Graham Boak]

Not just less comfortable but considerably lower performing.  Both have quite impressive capability for 2x100hp engines, but not quite in the same class. Not sure about the Siebel's rough field capability, though.

 

[Aardvark]

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

Not just less comfortable but considerably lower performing.  Both have quite impressive capability for 2x100hp engines, but not quite in the same class.

But this capability 

were at the limit of opportunities for the Sche-2, because it lacked the power of the M-11 engines.

https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ще-2

 The Yak-6 was a mixed-design aircraft made in a very short time with an unsuccessful wing profile for him, so O.K.Antonov, the father of the An-2 and in fact, the father of the Yak-3 redesigned the Yak-6,

https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Як-6

making the Yak-8.

https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Як-8

but by the number of crew and passengers Yak-6/8 & Shche-2 I classified Si-204 as some class.

But  comfortable....it's a very different!

 

However Si-204 was very bad for extreme climatic conditions Arctic and Central Asia, as they say in Russian sources.

 

 

B.R.

Serge 

[28ZComeback]

https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/501377371007357426/

 

Soviet Siebel 204D in bare metal. Serge, my friend what do you think of this bird? VVS?? One of the small government airlines?? Thank you all 

Edited July 30, 2019 by 28ZComeback
Sp

[modelldoc]

Red Star, number, no other insignia, looks military used.

 

modelldoc

[Aardvark]

12 hours ago, 28ZComeback said:

https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/501377371007357426/

 

Soviet Siebel 204D in bare metal. Serge, my friend what do you think of this bird? VVS?? One of the small government airlines?? Thank you all 

WOW!!!!!

Si-204 it's not my interest, but I don't see this photo before.

First of all, it's desert...then probably this photo from Middle Asia. 

Second, it's no standard positions number on fin. Yes, it's was almost standard in early WW2 but late, without red star...🤔

Maybe it's aircraft for  training cadets? 

I don't know...

But it's very interesting photo....

 

B.R.

Serge

 

[28ZComeback]

I thought it was the KP kit at first then noticed the flaps and detail suggesting an authentic photo. 

[Aardvark]

Some details about Polar Si-204:

 

"Aircraft arrived in the Chukchi AG from MAGON.  In June and July 1946 he worked at Schmidt.  Further based in the Kolyma Crosses.
 From the Report of the Chukotka AG on the work for

first half year 1946.  39 pages.

 The aircraft fleet of the Chukotka AG on 1.7.1946 year consists of 4 s-coms, of which: SI-204 = 2;  C-2 = 1;  SP = 1.
 Their technical condition is as follows:
 1. SI-204 H-370, head.  № 322119, raid after admission to the UPA = 93 hours

20 min.
 2. SI-204 H-376, head.  №251571, raid after admission to the UPA = 59 hours 25 min.  Arrived in Chukotka AG 2.5.1946 year.  What has been done on the conversion of the ... 7. The urinal of the left pilot was mounted in the cockpit.  … 14. …
 For the whole of 1946, the H-376 flew 127 hours, incl.  at night 2h.30m

 From the Chuck AG Report for 1947.  ...
 L. 24. I. Aircraft-motor park.  Two SI-204 listed on b.  Chuk AG in 1947 considered to be written off for the following reasons:
 1. Si-204 H-370 order deputy.  beginning  UPA regiment.  Kuzichkina transferred to the Moscow AG.
 2. C-204 H-408 as a result of the crash of 2.3.1947 is charged from the balance of the AG.

 Because of the absence of an airfield and low temperatures, from 20.5.47 to 1.1.1948, the Si-204 H-376 was not subjected to operation.  Was in good condition.
 Since the turnaround of the overhaul period from April 1947 to repair the linear workshops because of the lack of app. parts and materials not ready."

http://www.polarpost.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=272

 

Number Siebel-204 - 

Н-370, 379, 414, 408, 409, 398

 

Most interesting -

Н-415 - Short Steerling

 

http://www.polarpost.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=150#1593

 

Other Soviet Si-204

All from site about Si-204:

https://si-204.io.ua/

 

B.R.

Serge

[28ZComeback]

Wow thank you Serge!!! That is the first photo I have seen of the tan Russian Si-204D! It sounds as if the lack of parts caused a lot of accidents. Thank you again brother!!

[Aardvark]

1 hour ago, 28ZComeback said:

That is the first photo I have seen of the tan Russian Si-204D! 

Tan? Only if this Czech made aircraft for Soviet Union, because Soviet brown colour A-21 was  shadow as coffee with milk, it's so darker v.s. photo comparison.

Second questions -  but for what sand? Camouflage for Soviet Middle Asia? For secret air line in Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India e.t.c? For what tan overall colour? 

I think this Si-204 most probably have grey colour type PF-36 as on MiG-9, Yak-15/17 e.t.c.

 

B.R.

Serge

[28ZComeback]

It’s looks almost white...

[Aardvark]

4 hours ago, 28ZComeback said:

It’s looks almost white...

Weathering - Middle Asia!!!

But it's no white, because red star have white outline, and this outline more lightness than aircraft overall colour.

 

B.R.

Serge

[28ZComeback]

I now agree from you. Tall tail indicates it was built by Czechs C-3. Thank you again 

Edited August 3, 2019 by 28ZComeback