FW190 Strikethrough swastika

[SafetyDad]

8 hours ago, Luka said:

Back on topic; these posted photos are great new info for me and prove for me that the marking is legit. I think it will make a nice modeling subject.
Now, which one of the three 190's in my stash am I going to use..

Yellow 11 for me as I prefer a bit of colour on my models! . I'm pretty sure this is an A8 version as other pictures taken at Flensburg show the fronts of what I think is this group of 190s. Two of the group have 14 bladed cooling fans (so are A9s) but the rest have the usual 12 blades. It's not possible to identify Yellow 11 conclusively within the group picture sadly.

 

Although you do have the rare opportunity here to do Black 15 with photographic coverage of both sides of the airframe.

All three would make good models

 

SD

 

 

[MDriskill]

Thanks much for the pics of “Yellow 11!” Most interesting and as mentioned, both strong evidence that the stripe was used Gruppe-wide, and a more colorful modeling alternative to Black 7, 15, and 17.

 

Not sure we need more speculation on the marking, but one could argue that - in spite of physically obscuring part of the swastika - the stripe draws attention to it, rather than concealing it? If I were the gent who came up with the idea, that’s what I would have said to an inquiring senior officer anyhow! 🙄

 

Edited April 15, 2022 by MDriskill

[Gorby]

52 minutes ago, MDriskill said:

Not sure we need more speculation on the marking, but one could argue that - in spite of physically obscuring part of the swastika - the stripe draws attention to it, rather than concealing it?

I didn't realise that we've come to a 100% positive conclusion. If not, what's the problem with speculating further?

Yes it is drawing your attention to the swastika and to me, the strike through emphasised the anti-nazi element. When you want have a visual representation to signify that you are against something, it usually shows a strike through rather than obscure the image completely.

 

[Graham Boak]

The Luftwaffe has been generally described as the most Nazi-supportive of the German forces.  Without some specific motive such as for JG53 in 1940, a political statement appears most unlikely.  Especially at this time, as pointed out above.

 

Looking at Bobmig's posting 13, what he suggests is a stripe on the rudder is not consistent with the rudder being angled - as it clearly is.  I suggest that the stripe is only present on the fin.

[silberpferd]

Hi all,

 

I have recently met (this monday) author/historian Jean Yves Lorant, and asked him about those white stripes, since one of the pictures showned here was published in the book he co-authored, Docavia's Fw -190, and he told me he had met one pilot from JG54 which had flown one of the Fw 190 with those stripes on the fin. He told him it was just a quick recognition marking, and there was of course some concern by a few people about oblitaring the swastika, but it was decided that this marking would be more visible on the fin. I sould meet Mr Lorant soon again, so I might be able to give more details, if needed.

 

Cheers,

 

Laurent

Edited August 8, 2019 by silberpferd
incorrect word

[Richard502]

2 hours ago, silberpferd said:

just a quick reconnaissance marking,

recognition, as in IFF?

Richard

[stevehnz]

I suspect that the word reconnaissance used by @silberpferd may have been lost in translation & in fact should be recognition?  That's what I took it as anyway.

Steve.

[silberpferd]

2 hours ago, stevehnz said:

I suspect that the word reconnaissance used by @silberpferd may have been lost in translation & in fact should be recognition?  That's what I took it as anyway.

Steve.

Sorry☺️, recognition, that's what I meant. Thank you Steve 👍

 

Laurent

Edited August 8, 2019 by silberpferd

[MDriskill]

6 hours ago, silberpferd said:

I have recently met (this monday) author/historian Jean Yves Lorant, and asked him about those white stripes, since one of the pictures shown here was published in the book he co-authored, Docavia's Fw -190, and he told me he had met one pilot from JG54 which had flown one of the Fw 190 with those stripes on the fin. He told him it was just a quick recognition marking, and there was of course some concern by a few people about oblitaring the swastika, but it was decided that this marking would be more visible on the fin. I sould meet Mr Lorant soon again, so I might be able to give more details, if needed.

That is fascinating, thanks! It is interesting to note that the bright narrow stripe is indeed more visible for being on a diagonal; the “strike-through” reading of it may be more of a 2019 connotation, than a 1945 one.

 

If you see Mr. Lorant again, please let him know that that Le Focke-Wulf 190 was one of the biggest highlights of my long obsession with this aircraft, in spite of the severe limitations of my schoolboy French...once upon a time, I even built the Airfix 1/72 Fw 190D, to match the book’s cover art. 😀

[Luka]

1 hour ago, MDriskill said:

the “strike-through” reading of it may be more of a 2019 connotation, than a 1945 one.

Sorry about that, my choice of words was more for the 'catchy aliteration' topic title, rather than an official name for this marking.

 

8 hours ago, silberpferd said:

(..) and he told me he had met one pilot from JG54 which had flown one of the Fw 190 with those stripes on the fin. He told him it was just a quick recognition marking (..)

That's some great info; I was still wondering a little wether this marking was used in actual operations, since the photos typically show crashed (sabotaged?) or captured AC.

[SafetyDad]

22 hours ago, Luka said:

 I was still wondering a little wether this marking was used in actual operations, since the photos typically show crashed (sabotaged?) or captured AC.

And the answer would seem to be that this marking was used operationally. Checking Smith & Creek's 3 Volume work on the Fw190, there on p868 of Vol 3 is your 'Black 15'. The detailed caption accompanying the pictures identifies the pilot as Heinz Schmidt, and details the (very brief) life of this airframe. It was ferried to III/JG54 on February 17th 1945, and used operationally on March 11th 1945 by Schmidt for the first time (for him or the aircraft? - not sure from the caption). The following day the airframe was badly damaged by Russian AA fire during a ground attack mission resulting in the undercarriage retraction mechanism being unusable, with the consequences we see in the pictures. Location of the crashlanding is given as Mucheberg/Eggersdorf.

 

A further marking detail that has not yet been mentioned is that this aircraft carried a white III on the rudder below the stripe. (Their rendition of the pictures is rather clearer than others I have seen). Looking again at Black 15 above, this III marking appears as a white patch on the rudder. The meaning of this III marking is not known. The authors assert that, while its tempting to link the III marking with III Gruppe, having checked with Ken Merrick, they do not believe this is the case. Finally they describe how another Fw190 was also involved in a forced landing that day, it carried the white tail stripe, but not the III marking.

 

I would add that white rudder numbers were used by the Luftwaffe on aircraft being ferried to their units, and that other examples exist of these numbers being still present when the aircraft was used (and shot down) operationally. Fw190D-9 <II + flown by Werner Hohenberg of JG2 shot down during Bodenplatte carried the remnants of a white ferry number on the rudder. So perhaps here we are seeing a white 111?

 

Source: Smith JR and Creek E (2013) 'Focke Wulf 190 Volume Three 1944-1945' Classic Publications Hersham

Edited August 9, 2019 by SafetyDad
add missing word

[silberpferd]

On 08/08/2019 at 12:23, MDriskill said:

That is fascinating, thanks! It is interesting to note that the bright narrow stripe is indeed more visible for being on a diagonal; the “strike-through” reading of it may be more of a 2019 connotation, than a 1945 one.

 

If you see Mr. Lorant again, please let him know that that Le Focke-Wulf 190 was one of the biggest highlights of my long obsession with this aircraft, in spite of the severe limitations of my schoolboy French...once upon a time, I even built the Airfix 1/72 Fw 190D, to match the book’s cover art. 😀

Hi all,

 

I have visited Mr Lorant a few days ago, and he was very pleased to discover this forum, and this interesting thread. he just emailed me another picture from the collection of the pilot he had met a long time ago, which he allowed me to share with you. Taken in March 1945, location is Müncheberg.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Laurent

Edited August 18, 2019 by silberpferd

[MDriskill]

That is terrific! Thank you so much for posting that, what an excellent photo.

 

Not exactly a state-of-the-art build by current standards, but here is M. Lorant’s book and the old Airfix build inspired by it that I previously mentioned...!

 

Edited April 15, 2022 by MDriskill

[SafetyDad]

Brilliant Laurent!

 

Excellent additional information and a great pic too! I presume that that is Black 15 being salvaged? Thanks!

Just realised that I can't spell Müncheberg!  Sorry

 

Good post and thanks again

 

SD

Edited August 19, 2019 by SafetyDad

[SafetyDad]

Two more pictures of Black 7. I have to say looking at the tones in these B&W photos that I could be convinced that this is Blue or Red 7 rather than Black? The two-tone spinner visible in the lower picture suggests that this is the same aircraft as the 'Black 7' on p1 of this thread posted by MDriskill

 

SD

 

Source: Luftwaffe Warbirds Photo Album Vol4 (1993) Tank Magazine Special Issue Delta Publishing Toyko Japan. 

Images posted for the purposes of research. 

 

 

  

Edited August 20, 2019 by SafetyDad
Photo credit

[SafetyDad]

Reviving this thread for a moment, I've just realised that the Fw190 above has its numbers and Gruppe bar outlined in white, but that Black 15 in the preceding pictures doesn't. It's possible that some aircraft within a Staffel had outlined numbers where others did not, but this number doesn't look black to me. Given that the tones of the numbers in the above shots don't seem to match the black of the Balkenkreuz I'm going to propose that these numbers are red. That would make this Red 7 of 8/JG54. Another colourful aircraft to model!

 

It would also mean that we have photographic evidence of the tail stripe being used by all 3 Staffeln within the Gruppe. 

 

SD

Edited October 9, 2019 by SafetyDad

[FalkeEins]

On 8/8/2019 at 4:57 AM, silberpferd said:

he had met one pilot from JG54 which had flown one of the Fw 190 with those stripes on the fin. He told him it was just a quick recognition marking

 

reviving this thread for a moment - all these images from 10./JG 54 pilot Heinz Schmidt's album were published in a story that appeared way back in February 1982... it was published in Aeroplane Monthly, so no idea why the big 'mystery'! 'Black 15' was Schmidt's machine. The white flash was a tactical marking for all Fw 190s operating against Soviet targets along and around the Oder river.

[Milos Gazdic]

Hello,
Thanks for the pointer to the article. Do you know who has written the article?

[SafetyDad]

23 hours ago, FalkeEins said:

 The white flash was a tactical marking for all Fw 190s operating against Soviet targets along and around the Oder river.

 

Thanks. It's worth noting the distance between the Oder and the eventual final destination of 'Yellow 11' at Flensburg. Gives a clear insight into the chaos and fragmentation of the Luftwaffe at war's end. 

 

SD

[Bertie McBoatface]

On 7/27/2019 at 1:29 AM, MDriskill said:

I’ve often wondered if there might have subtle political undertones to this, though. Not all pilots were ardent Nazis; earlier in the war, for example some JG 53 pilots completely painted over the hakenkreuz on their Bf 109E’s, after Goering censured their CO for marrying a woman of Jewish heritage...

 

 

The way I heard that story, the Nazi senior officers forbade the unit to carry the swastika as a punishment for the same 'offence'. 

[alt-92]

On 4/14/2022 at 2:32 PM, Bertie Psmith said:

Nazi senior officers forbade the unit to carry the swastika

Seems counter-intuitive. Being made to carry said markings while not wanting them would have made more sense.

[gingerbob]

Perhaps not to those who had "swallowed the Kool-Aid".

[Ed Russell]

On 4/13/2022 at 11:57 PM, Milos Gazdic said:

Do you know who has written the article?

If @FalkeEins has the right issue, it looks like Rick Chapman.

https://www.magazineexchange.co.uk/cw/aeroplane-monthly-magazine-february-1982-issue.html

although the titling is a bit obscure it's the only one I can see that fits.

[FalkeEins]

 That's the one Ed. It's only three pages though - a translation of Schmidt's own account of one day in his unit's hopeless attempts to hold up the Russians at the Oder..

 

There are a few more photos of Fw 190s with the 'struck through' Hakenkreuz. These belong to another JG - appearing in the Stipdonk/Meyer photo history of JG 51

[FalkeEins]

On 8/18/2019 at 12:22 PM, MDriskill said:

That is terrific! Thank you so much for posting that, what an excellent photo.

 

Not exactly a state-of-the-art build by current standards, but here is M. Lorant’s book and the old Airfix build inspired by it that I previously mentioned...!

 

 

...nice work! Having posed the question directly to Lorant and artist Richard Goyat, this machine was in fact 'white 8'