Question about Sea Hurricane Z7015

[Spitfires Forever]

Hello,

I just finished the brilliant Timeline aircraft documentary on the Z7015 Sea Hurricane and had a question about the spinner. According to the documentary the aircraft eventually was issued from Canada as a Sea Hurricane Mk Ib which is basically a navalized Hurricane Mk II, which to my limited knowledge had the smaller spinner, (and please feel free to correct me on any of this, I'm just looking for accuracy.) What stood out to me was the spinner, it looked like it belonged on a Mk II Hurricane, and because I was going to make my 1/48 Sea Hurricane the same aircraft wouldn't I require the smaller spinner as was used on the Mk Ib/Mk I Hurricane at the time this aircraft served. One additional question: wasn't the oil splash guard behind the prop only added to the Mk II? Is it possible that over the years with all the Frankenstinian machinations that some parts were just thrown on because of availability? Well, those are my questions for now, so any suggestions, corrections, etc are surely welcome.

Cheers

Edited July 20, 2019 by Spitfires Forever
Addition, grammar etc.

[Graham Boak]

The current spinner is indeed incorrect, possibly from a Constellation?  The Sea Hurricane  Mk.I had to use the heavier DH propeller and spinner because otherwise the weight of the arrester gear modifications moved the CG too far aft.

 

The oil spill ring appeared first on later Mk.Is, but was standardised by the Mk.II.  Z7015 is in Pedestal colours, and SHs on HMS Indomitable were a mix of aircraft with or without this mod.

[72modeler]

I found two photos of Z7015, one dated 1950 and the other 1963, from the David Welch collection, that show her in silver dope overall, with no markings; in both photos she has the spinner from the Mk II fitted, as well as the Rotol prop. In the 1950 photo, taken in a hangar, the spinner is detached but on the floor in front of the aircraft, showing the Rotol prop, hub, and broad chord Jablo? blades. In both photos, the oil control ring is visible. IIRC, she was used as an instructional airframe at Loughborough College from 1943 to 1961. I have no idea, as Graham has stated, if the spinner in either photo was the original one fitted to her. I am only guessing here, and I'm no Troy or Graham, but I think if she started life as a CCAF-built Mk 1, then was converted to a Sea Hurricane 1b in the UK, that she had the small spinner and DH prop originally. If I can find a wartime photo of her, I will be sure to post it.

Mike

[Graham Boak]

The bullet-shaped Rotol was the one designed for the Hurricane, but only first appeared on late Mk.Is and all following variants except SH Mk.Ib (previous post corrected on this detail).  All these props were resin-impregnated wood,. Jablo being one such.

 

re CCAF Mk.IIs.  There is a current thread running on the subject of Canadian production of this batch of aircraft, which is well worth reading if somewhat confusing, but I would argue that had it arrived in the UK as a Mk.II it would have stayed that way.

 

It is known to have served on Indomitable, therefore must have had the DH prop.  QED.

 

I haven't seen the Timeline documentary.  What does it say about service on Pedestal?  When I was researching the evidence said not, but I have since seen claims that it did.  Whether these are based on anything more than the current scheme I know not.

[Guest]

Thanks guys, I reckon the smaller spinner and DH prop would be the call on my Sea Hurricane build. Regardless, Z7015 is absolutely gorgeous despite the minor innacuracy. I absolutely love the Spit but there is just something about the Sea Hurricane, and the Hurricane in general that sets it apart. Let us hope that Z7015 will be around for many years.

Cheers

[Work In Progress]

From a modelling perspective only models and paintings can be inaccurate. A full size aeroplane, the subject of a model, is always what it is.

[Guest]

I would recommend the documentary, it is on YouTube so just enter Sea Hurricane and you should find it. The aircraft had quite a labyrinthine path to its present state but it is a legitimate Sea Hurricane  I think converted originally from a Mk I Hurricane in Canada and sent over as a Ib, I would need to see the documentary again because there was so much information presented that it was hard to keep track. How the researches found all the information on this unique aircraft I don't know but they did a splendid job gathering and fact finding. The prop spinner could have come from Canada or who knows? The aircraft went through all sorts of maintenance and retrofitting that by the time they finished with it the Mk II spinner was the only one available?  Anyway, definitely watch the documentary, one of the best yet on an individual aircraft.

Cheers

 

[Graham Boak]

For more information on Canadian Hurricanes/Sea Hurricanes see Claudio's thread https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235018350-canadian-hurricanes/

 

The basic history of Z7015 is found in the Ray Sturtivant's invaluable FAA Aircraft of WW2, as referenced by Claudio.  The information here came from the FAA's aircraft record cards which have since been destroyed.  FAA specialists are currently working on a second edition, but I suspect it is still some time away.  Considerable additional work was done by Owen Dinsdale who was (and still is?) responsible for Z7015 in the hands of the Shuttleworth Collection.  I'm sure that you are right that the current prop, whenever it appeared, was quite simply whatever was available that would do the job.  Should a more appropriate DH prop appear at an affordable price, I'm sure that it would rapidly find its way onto Z7015.

 

As a full-size aeroplane, Z7015 is indeed what at is.  However, in so far as it purports to be a Sea Hurricane taking part in Operation Pedestal, there are a number of features which are not accurate.  As such, the modeller should be aware of these.  The propeller/spinner is the most obvious.  That Z7015 is known to have been operated by 880 Sq prior on Indomitable prior to its departure to foreign climes, but not actually taken with her, is another.  This makes the Yellow Pedestal markings incorrect on this particular airframe.  Hence my query about just what the TV documentary said on the matter.

 

Sadly but inevitably it is true that for all modern restorations/rebuilds, even the best attempts can fall short of complete accuracy simply because of lack of appropriate parts and/or information.  Or simply mistakes/compromises in the restoration.  There is a very recent thread on Flypast's Historic forum making clear that some truly superb recent Hurricane restorations (we aren't supposed to call them new-builds) suffer from an incorrect nose top cowling.  https://forum.keypublishing.com/forum/historic-aviation/3867571-hurricane-nose-profiles-not-always-quite-the-same  These aircraft are indeed what they are, but they do not have an accurate top nose cowling for historic production Hurricanes.  So it depends what you want to model.

 

[Max Headroom]

Just a small note about the 7*L code. The ‘L’ isn’t necessarily the individual i/d for the aircraft, but is a tribute to David Lee the Deputy Director of the IWM at Duxford  when the aircraft was based there after restoration.

 

Trevor

[Graham Boak]

Thanks for that: it may have helped that L is not one of the codes used by 880 Sq. that can be tied to a specific serial.  Or at least, as was known then.

[ClaudioN]

The full story Z7015 is provided in some of the books on Hurricane survivors you may find around.

From what I've read Z7015 was built by CCF in Canada as a Hurricane Mk. I. Conversion to Sea Hurricane Mk. IB was carried out in Britain by General Aircraft.

 

CCF-built Mark Is were generally fitted with de Havilland propellers and the pointy spinner. The dH prop was in fact necessary in the Sea Hurricane Mk. IB since, weighting more than the Rotol, it helped balance the additional weight aft due to the arrester hook.

 

Z7015 served with 880 Sqn before embarkation on Indomitable (and Sturtivant reports it as 7L), but remained in Britain, hence it never wore the Pedestal markings, but we may all agree those markings are just right where they are.

During restoration an arrester hook was fitted back, but this is lighter as it is for demonstration only, allowing the use of the Rotol propeller. I assume the Rotol is more common among warbirds and possibly easier to maintain. The engine is still a Merlin III, which contributes to make Z7015 rather unique.

 

Of course, if you model Z7015 as it is now a Rotol prop is OK. If you wish to represent it as it was during the war, you need a de Havilland prop.

Edited July 21, 2019 by ClaudioN

[Work In Progress]

Z7015 also had a dH prop for a fair while in her current existence and colours at Old Warden

[Max Headroom]

Here it is as a static exhibit before restoration to flying status.

 

https://aflyinghistory.com/search-aeroplane-photographs?query=Z7015

 

Trevor

[Troy Smith]

On 20/07/2019 at 19:31, Spitfire addict said:

Hello,

I just finished the brilliant Timeline aircraft documentary on the Z7015 Sea Hurricane and had a question about the spinner. According to the documentary the aircraft eventually was issued from Canada as a Sea Hurricane Mk Ib which is basically a navalized Hurricane Mk II, which to my limited knowledge had the smaller spinner, (and please feel free to correct me on any of this, I'm just looking for accuracy.) What stood out to me was the spinner, it looked like it belonged on a Mk II Hurricane, and because I was going to make my 1/48 Sea Hurricane the same aircraft wouldn't I require the smaller spinner as was used on the Mk Ib/Mk I Hurricane at the time this aircraft served.

Sea Hurricane IB is a navalised Mk.I    

what base kit Randy?

Also, you may have forgotten this thread, which should help on the props and spinners.

Z7015 in wartime fit should have the De Havilland Hurricane prop.

Assuming you are still doing 1/48th, this prop is in both some Hasegawa kits (depends on boxing) and the new Tool Airfix Mk.I

Note the new tool Airfix Mk.I has the Sea Hurricane parts in every boxing, and can be used to convert the hase kit, with the bonus of allowing the elimination of the awful underfuselage join on the Hase kit. 

The Hase fuselage underneath is a bit boxy compared to the Airfix, so does need a bit of tweaking, a small cut in the wing fillet allows the fuselage side to be bent in a little to match the Airfix part,  note the Airfix underside is better shaped though.

 

On 20/07/2019 at 19:31, Spitfire addict said:

 

One additional question: wasn't the oil splash guard behind the prop only added to the Mk II? Is it possible that over the years with all the Frankenstinian machinations that some parts were just thrown on because of availability? Well, those are my questions for now, so any suggestions, corrections, etc are surely welcome.

Cheers

 

On 20/07/2019 at 19:57, Graham Boak said:

The current spinner is indeed incorrect, possibly from a Constellation?  The Sea Hurricane  Mk.I had to use the heavier DH propeller and spinner because otherwise the weight of the arrester gear modifications moved the CG too far aft.

the spinner looks like the Hurricane Rotol unit,  the Constellation spinner looks pretty odd.   It's in the link above

[Graham Boak]

There does seem to be more than one version of this Rotol spinner, those on current warbirds (including Z7015) appear more bulbous than the shape appears in wartime photos.

[72modeler]

1 hour ago, Work In Progress said:

Z7015 also had a dH prop for a fair while in her current existence and colours at Old Warden

WIP,

 

I found some discussion on the Key Aviation Publishing forum regarding the prop on Z7015. There was a poster who said that she did have the DH prop and spinner, but it was fitted to Shuttleworth's Mk Vb at some point,  and never given back- thus the Rotol prop and spinner she has now, but if another can be located at a reasonable cost, the Shuttleworth Trust  would like to install one.

Mike

[Graham Boak]

18 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

There does seem to be more than one version of this Rotol spinner, those on current warbirds (including Z7015) appear more bulbous than the shape appears in wartime photos.

On Flypast Historic forum today, anneorac posted some very interesting information on Rotol Hurricanes, of which I excerpt the following.

"Moving on to the Hurricane II we have the bullet shaped ES/9 spinner and the slightly longer CM/1. The difference in shape between the two is very subtle with the ES/9 having a constantly increasing curve from the back plate to the nose while the CM/1 has a flatter curve from backing plate to just in front of the blades and then a slightly steeper curve from that point."

 

There is more, but that's the relevant point here.  For more see

https://forum.keypublishing.com/forum/historic-aviation/3867571-hurricane-nose-profiles-not-always-quite-the-same/page2

[Work In Progress]

On 7/21/2019 at 10:21 PM, 72modeler said:

WIP,

 

I found some discussion on the Key Aviation Publishing forum regarding the prop on Z7015. There was a poster who said that she did have the DH prop and spinner, but it was fitted to Shuttleworth's Mk Vb at some point,  and never given back- thus the Rotol prop and spinner she has now, but if another can be located at a reasonable cost, the Shuttleworth Trust  would like to install one.

Mike

Their Vc, you mean, AR501. It hasn't had that prop for quite a while. When it returned to flight after a multi-year restoration last March, and ever since then, it has been wearing a broad root Rotol. I gather the old dH prop is timed out, requires a full rebuild and will eventually go back into collection spares stock when it is serviceable again.

[72modeler]

WIP.

 Sorry abut the mis-identification! I do know how horribly expensive it is to have a prop overhauled  by a licensed and certified repair facility, but it would be nice to see V7015 reunited with her proper prop and spinner at some point, or on a true Vb. The CAF used to have FiFi's props (Their B-29) get their  annual inspection here in San Antonio, and it cost an arm and a leg- I can only imagine what a 16' 7" HS prop inspection/overhaul goes for these days!

Mike

[Anneorac]

On ‎7‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 9:15 PM, Max Headroom said:

Here it is as a static exhibit before restoration to flying status.

 

https://aflyinghistory.com/search-aeroplane-photographs?query=Z7015

 

Trevor

Interesting photo's.  It appears to have a Spitfire V Rotol Prop with an ES/11 spinner attached in those photos in a similar fashion to Z2315 currently sitting at Duxford with the Charlie Brown lookalike climbing out of the cockpit.

 

Anne