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F387 Avro Lincoln B.2/B.30 What Frog would have released in about 1985 had they continued ...


Rob S

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Early morning update.  

 

Have added photos to the previous Post and while waiting to do other things did some filing and actually modified the Shackleton Wing Locating Tabs to fit in the Lancaster Fuselage while allowing for the "Gap" and also made "mirror" Slots in the Shackleton Wings and Lancaster Fuselage to take the Model Wing Spars from both Kits (but at this stage only inserted the Lanc Spar as the Shackleton Spar will have to be cut down owing to the narrower Fuselage or alternatively a new one made from Plasticard) and then taped the Fuselage and Wings together to see how it fitted and what gaps there are to be filled.  

 

In addition I wanted to get an idea of the size!  

 

Photos to follow.  

 

Edited by Rob S
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On 7/24/2019 at 6:52 AM, Rob S said:

 may be the result of the Russian Company 

Before you read the text below, I want to make an important clarification.

I am not a supporter of Nazism and for me all people are equal regardless of their skin color, nationality, religion, etc.

But I try to be very precise in details.  This is the specificity of my education and professional skills.

First of all, there were 16 republics in the USSR.  In each republic there was officially the dominant nationality, and it was not Russian.

So, "Russian company" is not correct, because in company was

Uzbek, because it's Uzbekistan.

"Uzbek company" also not correct, at that time did not say so ...

 Correct was "Tashkent toy factory". 

Why so much attention to the name company?

Because they are different nations, they may not understand.

For better understanding.

It's  a  Soviet epochs police  orientation to determine the nationality

USSR:

1_asteiqir6lm.jpg

Russian top row last left, Uzbek middle row last right.  Feel the difference! 😉

On 7/24/2019 at 6:52 AM, Rob S said:

Now looking at some of the other Parts particularly the Wings there seems as though they were nearly subjected to  a cold shut too.  So I am suspecting that the huge amount of FLASH and the BLISTERING (particularly compared with the original Frog example) may be the result of the Russian Company that punched these out by the thousands for very little Rubles might have had trouble with the amount of product with cold shuts so upped the pressure and hence temperature of the plastic to mitigate against it happening.  Just a theory but maybe Serge @Aardvark  might be able to shed some light on it?  

Quite correctly written here:

On 7/25/2019 at 8:39 AM, Rob S said:

"All Frog moulds were tuned to use Shell SI73 polystyrene having a Melt Flow Index of 35. Soviet polystyrene, on the other hand, was found to have an index of around 4! This meant that, in order to make the plastic fill the moulds, the temperature had to be increased by some 50º C and the injection pressure up to 100%. Not only was this very damaging to the moulds (several subsequently had to be repaired), but also often led to sub-standard mouldings. This since the extreme pressure forced the mould halves apart, letting plastic overflow into the gaps and form flash".

In addition, the production culture at the Tashkent toy factory was pretty bad, as you can see from this quote:

http://retromodels.ru/f215/

"It was not possible to resume production of the model, because the equipment was incomplete - one of the wing forms was broken during operation - this was caused by a foreign object in the mold (like a wrench).  It is possible that this was not an accident, but targeted sabotage, in order to prevent further production of the model.  Although, given the "reverent" attitude of local workers to the equipment in the post-Soviet space, we can talk about ordinary negligence."

Although the option sabotage

is also not excluded.  There can be many reasons for sabotage. As examples, canopy on Sea Vixen FROG & early NOVO have differences with  canopy on Sea Vixen now.

As the workers from the Donetsk toy factory told me what the mold on the canopy disappeared from the factory after the visit of the Polish delegation .... the Poles wanted to sell Sea Vixen in their box, but DFI chose Revell ....therefore, in order not to break the contract with Revell, DFI had to make a new mold on the canopy. Try it's rumor or not I don't know, but Sea Vixen FROG/early NOVO & Sea Vixen now have two similar but two differences canopy! 😎 

Therefore, everything could be.

 

Summary.

As for my, the main reasons were the poor characteristics of Soviet plastic* in general, and the low production culture in some factories.

 

B.R.

Serge 

 

_______________

* - It's funny, but now it's plastic very good for the lathe. Because modern plastic quick melted in a lathe.

 

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Oops sorry my "bad"!  But know what you mean as a lot of people around the traps think we live in "Austria" and speak such great English!  

 

No progress tonight as was following German Grand Prix FP1 and FP2 and also going over some of the bits and pieces (new Needle Files, Scriber, Plasticard, Tube, Carbon Fibre, Digital Callipers, etc) I bought after visiting the LHS and Tool Shops in "The Big Smoke" (Emerald!) 90 kms away.  

 

Tomorrow (today now) I'm thinking of continuing working on the Wings maybe filling in those gaps and cutting the Trailing Edge to the right line and also maybe epoxying in the Tube in the rear Fuselage in preparation for "The Cut".  Would like to get the figure on the section between the Bomb Bay and the Rear Transport joint from the Mike Keep Plans first though before any cutting just to see what it is in comparison to the others.  

 

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On 7/24/2019 at 6:10 AM, Rob S said:

 

Note too that the Shack wing as mentioned in the Airfix article and as shown in the photo when lining up the Engine positions will be a fair bit away from the Lanc Fuselage to maintain the correct wingspan (also owing to the Shack's "fat" Fuselage) and does not have to fit in the Lanc rebated slot even though it probably could with a bit of cleaning up.  After all it was the same basic aerofoil wasn't it?  

 

 

 

Hi Rob,

Not too sure about the aerofoil. I know the Shack was going to use the same aerofoil as the Lincoln, but in one of my books it says that they later decided to use the outer section from the Tudor airliner. Not sure exactly what difference that makes, if any. I will take a pic of the Flightpath conversion outer section compared with my MR3 and post it later.

 

DSC01599

 

According to my sources the Shack MR3 had a span of 119Ft including tip tanks, whilst the Lincoln was 120ft so I have positioned it about right. Don't know it that matches the plans you have.

 

Incidentally the H2S radome in both my conversion sets is a very strange shape - kind of squashed in at the bottom. At first I thought the DB part was damaged but the Flightpath one is identical so may be right. Nothing like the standard Lanc one.

Pete

Edited by PeterB
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28 minutes ago, Rob S said:

But know what you mean as a lot of people around the traps think we live in "Austria" and speak such great English!  

🤔

Around me I do not know such people! 😉

How can people make a mistake by confusing this

49456.jpg

iphone360_20303.jpg

with this

iphone360_6264.jpg

14328961575277352651_367x266.jpg

?

😁

 

B.R.

Serge

 

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1 hour ago, PeterB said:

Not too sure about the aerofoil. I know the Shack was going to use the same aerofoil as the Lincoln, but in one of my books it says that they later decided to use the outer section from the Tudor airliner.

Hopefully the aerofoil at the wing root is common to all.  Certainly on the tooling of the Kits they are close enough to be interchangeable with a minimum of sanding (He says *Touch Wood*!).  

 

1 hour ago, PeterB said:

 

I will take a pic of the Flightpath conversion outer section compared with my MR3 and post it later.

 

DSC01599

 

I think when it's lined up with the leading edge it will look the part as the trailing edge has to be relatively heavily modified to fit in the original smaller aileron as shown on Page 266

 

https://archive.org/details/Airfix_Magazine_1972-01/page/n15  

 

1 hour ago, PeterB said:

According to my sources the Shack MR3 had a span of 119Ft including tip tanks, whilst the Lincoln was 120ft so I have positioned it about right. Don't know it that matches the plans you have.

I can basically check what I've done by wacking on a dummy/trial set of tips in the morning and running a tape over it and see what I get when I multiply it by 72 and divide by 25.4 and then 12.  Will be interesting - stay tuned!  

 

1 hour ago, PeterB said:

Incidentally the H2S radome in both my conversion sets is a very strange shape - kind of squashed in at the bottom. At first I thought the DB part was damaged but the Flightpath one is identical so may be right. Nothing like the standard Lanc one.

Interesting.  Although the photos (and Plans) aren't great I can't see anything like that on the ones in the Conversion Articles.  The Airfix Mag one came from the Halifax kit so I'll dig one of those out and have a look at it.  Other than that I'd suspect the Cat in the Stash with the Paw resting on it may have "Dunnit"?  Our 17 year old Bengal who is rather over weight is a prime suspect in cases like that over here.  

 

48381292507_9e1543df08_b.jpg  

 

 

 

Edited by Rob S
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9 hours ago, PeterB said:

 

Hi Rob,

Not too sure about the aerofoil. I know the Shack was going to use the same aerofoil as the Lincoln, but in one of my books it says that they later decided to use the outer section from the Tudor airliner. Not sure exactly what difference that makes, if any. I will take a pic of the Flightpath conversion outer section compared with my MR3 and post it later.

 

DSC01599

 

According to my sources the Shack MR3 had a span of 119Ft including tip tanks, whilst the Lincoln was 120ft so I have positioned it about right. Don't know it that matches the plans you have.

 

Incidentally the H2S radome in both my conversion sets is a very strange shape - kind of squashed in at the bottom. At first I thought the DB part was damaged but the Flightpath one is identical so may be right. Nothing like the standard Lanc one.

Pete

Going from a not totally reliable 40+/- year old memory, the Frog Shackelton wing had a wedge taken out of the rear of the wing to bring the aileron forward, more at the tip, the leading edge stayed where it was. I think. :unsure: 

Steve.

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1 hour ago, stevehnz said:

Going from a not totally reliable 40+/- year old memory, the Frog Shackelton wing had a wedge taken out of the rear of the wing to bring the aileron forward, more at the tip, the leading edge stayed where it was. I think. :unsure: 

Steve.

 

Yep referred to here

 

9 hours ago, Rob S said:

I think when it's lined up with the leading edge it will look the part as the trailing edge has to be relatively heavily modified to fit in the original smaller aileron as shown on Page 266

 

https://archive.org/details/Airfix_Magazine_1972-01/page/n15  

 

 

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I must have missed that among the pictures of pollies & film stars, or maybe it was when I got distracted & went off looking for photos of Crocodile Dundee's love interest, you know, 'those' ones. ;) :D

At least the memory looks to have held up OK. :) 

Steve.

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Wow talk about different sources having different panel lines!  Comparing the Drawings in the Airfix Magazine with the Plans in the Scale Aircraft Modelling to the photo of the DB Wing tip above none are the same!  Might have to accelerate having a look at the Mike Keep Plans in the Lincoln Warpaint.  

 

So far some tricky cutting of the Shackleton wing for the Lincoln Aileron thanks to the Rivets, Spawn plastic, and my pathetic Scribing and cutting skills or lack thereof.  Easiest way to deal with the former is just to file off any lumps and bumps (hopefully can be added later if needed) and sand off the Rivets (again hopefully being able to rescribe later).  Now just working out how to add the Wing tip.  Was thinking of reshaping and then cutting off the Lancaster tips but will probably just make them out of Plasticard and Filler.  Photos to follow as I take them and download and upload them.  

 

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OK some photos from tonight's effort while following FP3 and Qualifying for the German GP

 

So first up is just a photo of the Shackleton Wing tabs as modified to fit in the Lancaster Fuselage and also allow for the Gap between the Fuselage and the Wing

 

48387468217_52d3eac993_b.jpg  

 

And then some rather poor photos complete with shadows of the slots in the Wings and Fuselage for these Tabs and both the Lancaster and Shackleton Spars

 

48387329726_b16005f3d1_b.jpg  

 

48387470267_b101a29e12_b.jpg  

 

48387331371_b67c38c244_b.jpg  

 

So the hacking away tonight was to "fix" the Shackleton wing to the Lincoln Aileron shape and reshape the tip of the Shackleton wing in preparation for new wing tips.  And then I decided after very little thought that I'd hack the basis of the new wing tips out of 40 thou Plasticard and glue then on to both the upper and lower Wing parts at their joining plane using the Shackleton's Tip Tank tabs modified (bevelled at the front so as not to confuse myself) to add to the glue line which should give a reasonable bit of meat to add some more Plasticard and Filler to sand to shape once it has set solid.  While at it I cut out little bits for the Wing Tip Lights which I can add later from shaped clear sprue suitably coloured if necessary (and if I can find any References!).  

 

Ending up looking like this at the end of the night's play

 

48387332816_9fe8f61647_b.jpg  

 

48387333201_6a50ce6482_b.jpg  

 

48387333776_4d38877246_b.jpg  

 

 

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Hi Rob,

 

Coming along nicely. Just looked at the SAM article we mentioned, and it confirms that the DB H2S Radome is of the later and much larger "Double Bubble" type which replaced the wartime dome. It therefore depends on which machine you are modelling, as of course does the presence or not of the mid upper turret. If I ever do make my conversion it will be a late BII in grey over black and no mid upper as my Hispanos are now allocated to the MR3.

 

Incidentally, your cat suggestion has considerable merit - the one whose picture I use here on the forum was a big boy. He weighed 14lb and had very long legs - the smallest of our cats who weighed 7lb could actually walk under him!

 

Pete

Edited by PeterB
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Hello Pete :

 

Ha ha ha ha ha.  Yes whenever we take him to the Vet's and there are other Cats there who their Owners think are "big Poodies"; "Kahn" comes out of his Carry Box (which they think is for a Dog) and are just stunned by his size.  The Hoges Croc Dundee Aussie sterotype is paraphrased to them thus "That's not a Cat - THIS IS A CAT!".  

 

Thanks for the heads up on the Radome - I just had a look and yes I can see the two different types now.  I also had a look at what I have got in mind for this Build and it actually doesn't have one!  

 

If I ever line up for another Lincoln Conversion again or if someone now produces a Kit (probably only Airfix now as by the sounds of it the potential or even by now new Owners of Revell aren't interested in Models!) I'd like to have a go at this

 

4e0cc0bba8408e7dedfb1f1b958e77dc.jpg  

The SAM Article has a Profile of it and there is a colour Profile on the Net which I think might be from the Warpaint book?  

 

9_8.jpg

 

 

Amazingly I was just surfing the Net and did a reverse image search on a couple of the photographs I had saved of RF533 and found this page

 

http://napoleon130.tripod.com/id1.html  

 

which when you scroll down has a number of images of it at the Fire Dump as the bloke used to play on it as a Kid!  

 

I'll have to get this one over the line first though!  

 

P.S.  One day or night I might have waffle a bit about my tenuous link to an Australian Lincoln!  

 

Edited by Rob S
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Yes, one of our nicknames for our big cat was "Small Dog", and the other was The BFC - Big Friendly Cat. Fortunately he was not given to fighting, because the combination of weight and long reach could have done a lot of damage to our neighbour's cats.

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That's so funny because we call him "Kahn Dog"!  

 

He's a big sook too not a Fighter but boy does he drool when he's happy purring and "kneading" with his paws/claws.  

 

For 13 years he had a Chocolate Point Siamese "Popeye" for company as they were in the Pet Shop together and they were Mates so we didn't want to separate them.  Even though Kahn was probably four times the size of Popeye he never bullied Popeye and if anything Popeye was the dominant Male.  Sadly we lost Popeye 4 years ago so even though we have Burmese and a Manx Females Kahn didn't care much for the Girls so we bought/adopted an Adult Siamese recently but this time a Flame Point called "Jarvis" and amazingly they bonded too.  

 

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On 7/26/2019 at 6:20 PM, PeterB said:

Not too sure about the aerofoil. I know the Shack was going to use the same aerofoil as the Lincoln, but in one of my books it says that they later decided to use the outer section from the Tudor airliner. 

 As say Wikipedia:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Shackleton

"The centre section of the Shackleton's wing originates from the Lincoln, while the outer wing and undercarriage were sourced from the Tudor outer wings; at one stage during development, the tailplane had closely resembled the Lincoln's, but was enlarged and changed soon after.[2]"

[2] - Flight 18 May 1950, p. 612.

 

Shack have aerofoil modified NACA 23018 at root:

 

http://airfoiltools.com/airfoil/details?airfoil=naca23018-il

 

 NACA 23012 at wingtip:

 

http://airfoiltools.com/airfoil/details?airfoil=naca23012-il

About aerofoil

Avro Lincoln no data, but in article Wikipedia  Avro Tudor

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Tudor

written:

"Using the Lincoln's wing, Chadwick, who had worked on the Lancaster, designed the Tudor to incorporate a new pressurized fuselage of circular cross-section"

&

"The wing was of NACA 23018 section at the root"

 

Summary.  It is highly likely that the Lincoln wing had aerofoil NACA 23018 section at the root like Tudor & Shack.

Also there is drawings:

http://www.airwar.ru/other/draw2/lancaster-1.html

Also see:

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1946/1946 - 0101.html

 

11 hours ago, stevehnz said:

I got distracted & went off looking for photos of Crocodile Dundee's love interest, you know, 'those' ones. ;) :D

😁

5 hours ago, JOCKNEY said:

The easiest way to appreciate true Australian culture is the short advert below

 



 

Naturally there are no stereotypes here whatsoever

Beer....loading...

damages car...where did i see it?

Really no stereotypes?

😉😁

 

B.R.

Serge

 

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Hi Roy,

 

Yes that certainly looks like the big radome in a light colour in the final section. SAM says cream or maybe clear I think. I was debating whether or not to do a clear one with a scanner inside.

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Enjoying this thread so far!

 

If you’re looking for something as we say......’unusual’, I give you the Avro Lincolnian, the refrigerated Bolivian meat hauler

 

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Untitled/Avro-694-Lincoln-Freighter/1782750/L

 

Trevor

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8 hours ago, PeterB said:

Hi Roy,

 

Following the successful 

 

"They call me Greg" 

 

and 

 

"They call me Ray" 

 

Ranges of Designer T-Shirts (see Frog Squad GB Chat) and after the disappointment of not being able to register "They call me Bruce" as my third Range of Designer T-Shirts owing to impending Legal action over Royalties I can now celebrate the launch of the third Range of Designer T-Shirts the 

 

"They call me Roy" Range.  

 

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Curiously enough that was the first copy of the Airfix Magazine that I ever bought. I've no idea why, at this distance in time, beyond guessing that the superb cover painting caught my young eye. 

Following with great interest.

John 

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