F387 Avro Lincoln B.2/B.30 What Frog would have released in about 1985 had they continued ...

[Rob S]

4 minutes ago, Rabbit Leader said:

Your moving into Rapunzel's Castle?? 

 

No we're not but "Ray" might be?  

 

[Rob S]

9 hours ago, Rabbit Leader said:

Is that my original Frog Lanc I sold you all those years ago Rob?

 

Good Question!  Or as the late great Niki Lauda would say " Gut Kwestion!".  

 

To be sadly truthful I don't know!  I think it actually might still be in Brisvegas as the Packing Box I got the two Frog Kits out of were from our move back to "Monarch's Land" from our time in "Suth Oztralia" and I didn't take any Kits over to SA but did buy heavily in that time as a distraction to ward off that terrible feeling resulting from living in a State that should have been blown off the mainland during the Nuclear Testing Days as well as working for a Company that was as corrupt as all get out as Graeme would say.  

 

The two Russian copies of the Lancaster were definitely liberated from the Brisvegas "Stash" earlier this year as I had thought about doing this even back then and obviously this Group Build has added momentum to actually having a go at it.  

 

Now if I would have maintained my previous obsessive compulsive behaviour of putting something in the Kit that reminded me of where I got it (Receipt or writing in it) instead of relying on my fading memory I could tell you if it was your Lancaster but the OCB Therapy obviously worked as I didn't!  

 

[JOCKNEY]

22 hours ago, Rob S said:

East Coast.  Location hint is in the "Bacon Lettuce Tomato".  It's 0233 here.  English Ladies not doing so well.  British GP "Highlights" has started but seeing as I've seen it twice before already it's no surprise who wins!    

  

 

Is it Busselton ?

[PeterB]

Like I said I am no good at riddles (normally) and certainly not Australian Geographic ones, so I too could do with a translation.

 

 

Edited July 21, 2019 by PeterB

[Rob S]

5 minutes ago, JOCKNEY said:

Is it Busselton ?

 

No no no!  That's near the southern end of the Left Coast or "Wist Ausfttrazia" (said in an Afrikans accent as there are heaps of ZA expats over there).  

 

BLT is in "your Monarch's" Land (East).  (Hint : Think IATA Codes.)  

 

[Rob S]

8 minutes ago, PeterB said:

Like I said I am no good at riddles (normally) and certainly not Australian Geographic ones, so I too could do with a translation.

 

Bacon Lettuce Tomato is my pathetic Food version of the Phonetic Alphabet for the IATA Code for the nearest Airport BLT.  

 

I notice that Trevor @Max Headroom puts "Location:not far from 53*17'N 3*03'W" in his Profile which I initially thought was niffty but then I thought if there was a Modeller out there who was also a Programmer for Intercontinental or Cruise Missiles and was reading Brit Modeller while updating Targeting Coordinates and mistakenly typed those coordinates in then there wouldn't be much left of my "Stash" if someone pressed the wrong button!  

 

[PeterB]

Ok Rob,

 

Guess that puts you about 350 miles from Dave if I am reading the scale correctly on Google Maps?

[Max Headroom]

3 hours ago, Rob S said:

 

No we're not but "Ray" might be?  

 

Ray Punzel?

 

Trevor

[Rob S]

1 hour ago, PeterB said:

Ok Rob,

 

Guess that puts you about 350 miles from Dave if I am reading the scale correctly on Google Maps?

 

It would probably be about that as the Crow flies but depending on which way I travel it's about 806 kms (about 504 miles) out and then down the Coast Road which takes about 11 hours depending on how many breaks along the way or if I want to take my Life out of my Hands and travel down "The Deliverance Highway" (I won't say which route that is for fear of offending the "Locals" and being lynched next time I travel down it) it's about 791 kms (about 495 miles) which takes about 10 hours as you can go faster and believe me you don't want to stop anywhere until you get to "Civilisation"!  

 

[Rob S]

1 hour ago, Max Headroom said:

Ray Punzel?

 

No it's just an inside Joke as someone accidentally called me "Ray" in a multi person PM.  

 

Strangely enough it's not the first time I have been called by another name as it happened on another Forum and the person who first picked it up - none other than Ray S @Romeo Alpha Yankee - jokes about it and calls me by that name every time we catch up.  Now if only I could remember what the name was!  

 

[Romeo Alpha Yankee]

6 hours ago, Rob S said:

 

No it's just an inside Joke as someone accidentally called me "Ray" in a multi person PM.  

 

Strangely enough it's not the first time I have been called by another name as it happened on another Forum and the person who first picked it up - none other than Ray S @Romeo Alpha Yankee - jokes about it and calls me by that name every time we catch up.  Now if only I could remember what the name was!  

 

Greg....

 

oh.... and which FROG GB will the 'Lincoln' be finished for Rob....Greg... Rob, III or IV???

 

[Rob S]

1 hour ago, Romeo Alpha Yankee said:

Greg....

 

oh.... and which FROG GB will the 'Lincoln' be finished for Rob....Greg... Rob, III or IV???

 

 

I only met you in person last year yet you know me so well !  (Just for that I should start the BAC 3.11 Build Thread and torment you with yet another one to be added to the list never to be finished!)  

 

Well I handed over the A300B1 and 737 builds over to Greg and he promised me he'd have them finished by now so it's obvious he can't be relied upon to have the Lincoln done for Frog Squad V (sounds much catchier than III or IV and in flavour with the current waxing lyrical about the Saturn V) so maybe I'll have to convince Ray into taking the Lincoln on probably in KUTA XXX?  

 

 

 

P.S.  I knew you would remember Greg.  Sadly I just couldn't find on the other Forum where it occurred.  

 

P.P.S.  If you are Ray, and then there is TOR on ACAM, and I see there is a Ray S on here then this Ray would either have to be TIR - The Imaginary Ray or TAR - The Accidental Ray?  

 

[Rob S]

9 hours ago, Romeo Alpha Yankee said:

Greg....

 

 

Ah there it is!  

 

http://www.airliner-civil-aircraft-modeller.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2511&p=23291&hilit=greg#p23291  

 

Just goes to show how bad I'm getting these days as I'm sure I looked for it in that Thread but obviously didn't look well enough.  Looks like I'm going to have to surrender my previously well earned Observation Badge ... 

 

[mike romeo]

I am so stoked about this build!

[Rob S]

OK as Gandalf said "And so it begins ..."  

 

Bit of an Insomniac last night so pulled the Kits out again and allocated them a Sistema Box so hopefully won't lose any parts.  

 

First of all I should mention I pulled this Airfix Magazine : 

 

 

out of the Bookcase and had a read of a contemporary (well after the Frog Shack but before the Frog Lanc) conversion to see what ideas I could glean from it.  

 

Strangely enough it is one of those things available on the Net - I don't know how this Site : 

 

http://www.magfree.net/6035-airfix-magazine-january-1972.html  

 

operates as I have never used it but looks like you can download a PDF copy of it if you haven't got it.  Me being Old School likes to have the Paper copy that a Tree or two died for.  

 

So you may remember this "Vacuform" from the previous page : 

 

 

 

Well carefully - and I do mean CAREFULLY - as this is a VERY brittle "plastic" (glass more like it!) I cut away the FLASH (all Capitals as there was a lot!) : 

 

 

 

to release the Fuselages and clean up the Wings although I left them on the Sprue.  Also for now just note how some of the FLASH is BLISTERED!  But more on this a bit later.  

 

So having a look at the Fuselage of the Lanc : 

 

 

 

The rear of the Port Side has a cold shut.  Luckily the bit that might have been missing was still in the Bag - yes I know ***AMAZING STORIES*** - so hopefully it should be a relatively simple fix (touch wood!).  

 

Now looking at some of the other Parts particularly the Wings there seems as though they were nearly subjected to  a cold shut too.  So I am suspecting that the huge amount of FLASH and the BLISTERING (particularly compared with the original Frog example) may be the result of the Russian Company that punched these out by the thousands for very little Rubles might have had trouble with the amount of product with cold shuts so upped the pressure and hence temperature of the plastic to mitigate against it happening.  Just a theory but maybe Serge @Aardvark  might be able to shed some light on it?  

 

Anyway more a bit later as I have to take my Son's Jack Russell to the Vet now so that the Vet can add to his Retirement Fund.  

 

[Romeo Alpha Yankee]

Lucky you have your hard copy of the magazine Rob, I just had a look at the download site and I got a 'File not Found' message, I tried a few different issues.

[Rob S]

7 minutes ago, Romeo Alpha Yankee said:

Lucky you have your hard copy of the magazine Rob, I just had a look at the download site and I got a 'File not Found' message, I tried a few different issues.

 

I've never used that Site but thought it was a Site I'd seen previously but it was actually this Site ; 

 

https://archive.org/details/Airfix_Magazine_1972-01  

 

Again I have no connection with this Site just found it out there in the ether ... 

 

[Rob S]

OK back from dropping off Jo Jo at the Vets - have to pick her up in an hour or so   

 

Now where was I?  

 

Ah yes - "freeing" the Lanc Fuselage.  

 

So I then compared the Lanc Fuselage with the Shackleton Fuselage which made an interesting comparison : 

 

 

 

As you can see the approach to Kit design changed from the Sixties to the Seventies and I'm not talking about the Rivets I'm talking about the Wing location.  On the sixties Shack it's external butt while on the seventies Lanc it's a rebated slot.  Both however have Tabs and Spar arrangement but one has it forward and the other aft.  Shouldn't be a problem (Ha!  Touch Wood and a big piece of Hardwood at that!) modifying the Tabs and Spars and end up with something relatively strong even if I have to go to the LMS 89 kms to get some Carbon Fibre or Aluminium.  

 

 

 

 

 

Note too that the Shack wing as mentioned in the Airfix article and as shown in the photo when lining up the Engine positions will be a fair bit away from the Lanc Fuselage to maintain the correct wingspan (also owing to the Shack's "fat" Fuselage) and does not have to fit in the Lanc rebated slot even though it probably could with a bit of cleaning up.  After all it was the same basic aerofoil wasn't it?  

 

 

 

Now having a look a the Lanc Fuselage again after taping it together revealed another degree of difficulty (DoD).  WARPING of that ****** Port side!  

 

 

 

 

 

For that and strength reasons it looks like it's going to have to be buttoned up so no open bomb bay I'd say unless there is way more strength when the bomb bay goes in.  

 

Anyway time to head back to the Vets and donate to his Retirement Fund or Trip Overseas or Pleasure Cruise somewhere ... 

 

[Ray S]

On 7/22/2019 at 3:36 AM, Rob S said:

 

 

P.P.S.  If you are Ray, and then there is TOR on ACAM, and I see there is a Ray S on here then this Ray would either have to be TIR - The Imaginary Ray or TAR - The Accidental Ray?  

 

 

This is @Ray S calling, it is not me guv, honest!

 

All the best, Ray!

[PeterB]

I think that may be the Shack/Lanc conversion John mentioned on my Shackleton build thread. I have the mag too. I believe there was an article 10 or so years later using one of the conversion sets that became available, but whether that was Airfix mag or not I don't know. However it did inspire me to buy another Lanc kit and a DB Conversions set.

[Richard Humm]

17 hours ago, Rob S said:

Now looking at some of the other Parts particularly the Wings there seems as though they were nearly subjected to  a cold shut too.  So I am suspecting that the huge amount of FLASH and the BLISTERING (particularly compared with the original Frog example) may be the result of the Russian Company that punched these out by the thousands for very little Rubles might have had trouble with the amount of product with cold shuts so upped the pressure and hence temperature of the plastic to mitigate against it happening.  Just a theory but maybe Serge @Aardvark  might be able to shed some light on it?  

 

 

 

It might have been the plastic they were using rather than the cold shut problem. The Novo discussion in the Lines/Hellstrøm FROG book says "All Frog moulds were tuned to use Shell SI73 polystyrene having a Melt Flow Index of 35. Soviet polystyrene, on the other hand, was found to have an index of around 4! This meant that, in order to make the plastic fill the moulds, the temperature had to be increased by some 50º C and the injection pressure up to 100%. Not only was this very damaging to the moulds (several subsequently had to be repaired), but also often led to sub-standard mouldings. This since the extreme pressure forced the mould halves apart, letting plastic overflow into the gaps and form flash".

[Rob S]

7 hours ago, Richard Humm said:

It might have been the plastic they were using rather than the cold shut problem. The Novo discussion in the Lines/Hellstrøm FROG book says "All Frog moulds were tuned to use Shell SI73 polystyrene having a Melt Flow Index of 35. Soviet polystyrene, on the other hand, was found to have an index of around 4! This meant that, in order to make the plastic fill the moulds, the temperature had to be increased by some 50º C and the injection pressure up to 100%. Not only was this very damaging to the moulds (several subsequently had to be repaired), but also often led to sub-standard mouldings. This since the extreme pressure forced the mould halves apart, letting plastic overflow into the gaps and form flash".

 

Ah great information.  Yes that would be the Root Cause of problems like Cold Shuts and why everything was upped causing Flash and Blistering and also explains why the Plastic is as brittle as Glass!  

 

Just having a read after doing a Search and there are some interesting Articles out there on the Topic.  Standards talking about new material and regrind seem to specify within 20 to 30 percent higher than Raw Material Specification so a figure nearly 90 percent lower is just staggering!  

 

I wonder what Specification Raw Material the current Owners / Users (Ark etc) of the Moulds are using?  

 

[Rob S]

OK after a bit of reading and receiving some information from @PeterB (Thanks kindly Peter) I think I have a better understanding how to tackle this having not noticed a couple of important things before and have made some decisions about this build.  

 

Firstly I was reading the Airfix Book (actually this Book might have post dated them being Airfix Books and was just a PSL Book!) "Lancaster Classic Aircraft No.6 Their history and how to model them" and came across the "Diagram of Transport Sections" on Page 40.  

 

 

 

Looking at that and thinking that build sections must have been pretty much along these lines the "Fuselage Rear Centre Portion" caught my attention as to where it's rear "join" was.  Which got me thinking that being derived from the Lancaster design and build wise with the Lincoln being stretched and so that contours fitted in this was the logical place where a cut should be made for the stretching.  In addition particularly as the "Fuselage Rear Portion" has a lot of straight tapering going on.  Shortly afterwards I received the information from Peter and it became so obvious that for the way that I was going to stretch the Fuselage this was the place to cut (and not just for strength reasons) rather than where the January 1972 Airfix Magazine made the cut.  As the information on the DB Conversion showed that a section of Fuselage was taken out from the Bomb Bay to the rear of the Mid Upper Turret - which seems to be obviously where this rear "join" was and hence is "shorter" in cross section - and the replacement DB plug was not just only the stretch length but also included the length of the Fuselage taken out.  

 

 

 

 

 

Why you may ask?  Well because of the lower contour of the Fuselage where there is a neat curvature on the Lincoln from the rear of the Bomb Bay to this rear "join" whereas if the cut is made at the rear of the Bomb Bay as per the January 1972 Airfix Magazine and the added plug was just the length of the Fuselage stretch then the home made plug would be constant cross section and hence what would be a straight line and a curve on the bottom of the Fuselage and not just a neat curve from the rear of the Bomb Bay to the front of the rear Fuselage (unless of course a hell of a lot of Fuselage was heavily sanded and reshaped which the Article does not mention).  Now you all probably knew this but for those who didn't hopefully this will help if you were going to do it the January 1972 Airfix Magazine way.  

 

Now secondly I've decided that this Build is really just an exercise in how to build a Lincoln from these kits as if it were 1977 (How are you going three years on Sam Tyler?) and it's not going to be built to any great standard or detail not that I could do either very well anyway but can always try better in another build (that is if I live to be a Gazzillion) that doesn't have time constraints.  

 

Thirdly you can bet that if I do get this one done and have a go at doing another one better Airfix or Revell (or both!) will no doubt release a Kit of it.  Here's hoping eh?  

 

Edited July 25, 2019 by Rob S
Photos of Book Diagram and DB Instructions added.

[PeterB]

Rob,

 

Not sure if Flightpath make their cuts the same as the DB but for the record their resin rear plug is 6.1 cm long excluding the bits that go into the fuselage. Don't know if that fits with your plans.

 

Pete

[Rob S]

Interesting Pete.  Thanks for that.  The plot thickens a little bit.  

 

Looking at the plans in the two References I have so far : 

 

In the Airfix Magazine the John E Young Drawings (which say "Constructional" so may not be able to be scaled) show the top of the inverted "L" stretch to be 6.65 cm and the bottom of it to be 2.60 cm.  

 

In the SAM the Cliff Minney Plans (which I'm assuming can be scaled?) have the stretch at 5,95 cm.  

 

So a bit of a variation.  The way I'm stretching it doesn't have to have a decision on the length of stretch for a while yet as there is lots to remove and reinforce and bog on the existing parts in the meantime.  

 

The other Plans that I'm yet to measure are the Mike Keep plans in the Lincoln Warpaint so it will be interesting to see what they measure out at.