Sea Fury MiG kill

[Brian J]

While scanning through the fundekals site I learned something I had never heard of when I viewed an attractive four view drawing of a Korean War Sea Fury O-106, flown by Brian 'Schmoo' Ellis.  Apparently, recent research by Paul Beaver has concluded that Peter 'Hoagy' Carmichael was not the pilot who shot down that MiG-15 but Ellis.  I would enjoy hearing comments if Ellis has in fact been given 'official' credit for this kill and is the four view drawing provided by fundekals accurate. 

 

I've wanted to do a build-up of Carmichael's aircraft for decades but would change the markings in light this recent research.

[Grey Beema]

Same for me - I have the Sea Fury in the stash and will at the appropriate time purchase he Fundekals set.  I think I read Ellis has been credited with the victory but would also like confirmation.

[JohnT]

Had a quick look on line and read a few descriptions of the combat from the pilots quoted on sites.    It seems they were bounced by the Migs and then they all had a bit of a pop at some Migs.  Some Sea Furies may have all had a pop at the same Mig - or not and in the melee one was seen to go down but it was not a case of anyone sitting behind a Mig and blasting it out of the sky with a well aimed burst.  Indeed a number of the four pilots seems to have fired at Migs - the same one?? - and seen smoke trail from it  ( or them?)  Sounds to me more like a team effort plus fog ot war to be fair to all concerned.  However thats based on a fast and dirty internet read so comes with all the usual caveats

[gingerbob]

So the logical answer is to build the whole section/flight/group of Sea Furies that were involved!

[JohnT]

3 minutes ago, gingerbob said:

So the logical answer is to build the whole section/flight/group of Sea Furies that were involved!

 

cant have too many of Hawkers best prop can we? 

[Brian J]

Interesting comments.  Who doesn't find the Hawker Sea Fury attractive?  Top drawer!  To reiterate, has there been official recognition for the claim made by Ellis of this MiG kill?  I accept that under the circumstances of the melee in question it will be impossible to prove any claim beyond a doubt, but again, has Ellis been given official recognition for the shoot down of the MiG?

[Johnson]

Hi @Brian J,

 

I have the Airfix 1/48 Sea Fury and I've bought the excellent Fundecals set which includes marking for Brian 'Schmoo' Ellis's Sea Fury.

 

At the moment I'm reading the book 'With the carriers in Korea’ by John Lansdown.

 

The part of the book that details the shooting down of the MiG 15 is in Chapter Nine, HMS Ocean 5 May - 8 Nov 1952. Page 273-5. Lansdown has copied verbatim from 802 Squadron's diary the events on 9th Aug 1952;

 

'Lieutenant Carmichael, Lieutenant Davis and Sub-Lieutenants Haines and Ellis started the ball rolling this morning by flying the first AR of the patrol. By 0600 they had entered the area and had commenced their Hanchon and Pyongyang to Chinnampo rail search. By 0630 they had reconnoitered as far south as Chinji-ri, a small village about 15 miles north of Chinnampo. As they meandered down the line, checking the bridge state as they went, they suddenly saw eight jet bogies to the north. Almost immediately the bogies were identified as MiGs - and were closing. By this time drop tanks were fluttering earthwards and the flight had assumed proper battle formation and No.4 - Sub Lieutenant Ellis - had noticed a shower of red tracer streaming past both sides of his fuselage. He cried "Break" over the R/T and the flight commenced a "Scissors". It was soon apparent that four MiGs were after each section of two Furies but by continuing their break turns our aircraft presented practically impossible targets to the enemy who made no attempt to bracket.

'On one occasion a MiG came head-on to Lieutenant Carmichael and Sub Lieutenant Haines - they both fired -  it broke away and proceeded  to go head-on to Lieutenant Davies and Sub Lieutenant Ellis - they both fired and registered hits. On another occasion a MiG pulled up in front of Ellis with its air brakes out and  he was amused to find the range closing. He gave a long burst and noticed hits on the enemy's wings. The aircraft then proceeded northwards and a reduced speed with two other MiGs in company. Meanwhile the flight, still in its battle formation, managed a dozen or so more firing passes at the MiGs head-on. The dog fight lasted 4-5 minutes and then the MiGs disappeared as quickly as they had arrived - as they departed an aircraft was seen to crash into a hillside and blow up. At first Lieutenant Carmichael thought it was one of his flight and ordered a tell-off. However when No.4 came up "loud and clear" it was realised that the Royal Navy had shot down its first communist aircraft. Lieutenant Carmichael as flight leader is being credited with its destruction officially but the rest of the flight are claiming their quarter as well'

 

The author of the book, Lieutenant Commander Lansdown, an Air Engineering Officer who served with 821 Sqn FAA on HMS Glory in Korea, continues to say:

 

'Although the diary suggests that all four members of the flight claimed a share of the MiG, from a confused situation Carmichael as flight leader got the credit for its destruction... To Lieutenant (now Commander) Peter 'Hoagy' Carmichael has fallen the unique distinction of being the the pilot of the only piston-engined aircraft to shoot down a jet-engined aircraft, a formidable testimony to the Sea Fury's ruggedness and its excellent dog-fighting characteristics. In his own words:

 

'We, as usual, were flying at about 4,000 feet, and we always flew with gyro and fixed ring on the gunsight. Suddenly a MiG came down behind me: I turned towards him and as he flew past me I noticed he had his air brakes out. He made the fatal mistake of trying to dog-fight with us. I put my gyro sight onto him and started to fire. At this point he realised he was in trouble and put his dive brakes in and started to accelerate like mad. I then switched to fixed ring and held him quite easily as my bullets started to hammer him. he started to roll over on his back and crashed into the ground with no attempts as baling out'.

 

There does seem to be a certain amount of inconsistency between the two versions, but from what I've read, what happens in dog fights is very confusing and often results in differing accounts from pilots involved in the same battle.

 

I may well model the Sea Fury of Sub-Lieutenant Ellis who seems to deserve at least a quarter share, maybe more.

[72modeler]

1 hour ago, Johnson said:

To Lieutenant (now Commander) Peter 'Hoagy' Carmichael has fallen the unique distinction of being the the pilot of the only piston-engined aircraft to shoot down a jet-engined aircraft,

Technically not correct, as B-29 gunners did score some confirmed kills during the Korean Conflict. The Sea Fury was the only piston-engined fighter to shoot down a jet in Korea, but IIRC, there was a USN Skyraider that downed a Mig-17 in SEA. Manly men, both pilots!

Mike

[KevinK]

Also, there were P-51 and Tempest victories against Me-262s in an earlier, less-well-known conflict.

[Johnson]

You are absolutely right of course Mike and Kevin, thank you. But before we get carried away finding all the other preceding piston-engined vs jet-engined victories (we could add Arado 234 to the list...), I was quoting from a book written by a Royal Navy historian - who may have had a slightly more narrow view of the history of aerial warfare!

 

The source is the nearest I've yet seen to an 'official' version of the events surrounding the shooting down of a MiG by Sea Furies that Brian was seeking (the excerpt from the 802 Sqn diary and Lieutenant Carmichael's own description). What I found interesting were the differences and inconsistencies between these accounts.

 

A bit more Google searching reveals other articles on the subject, Paul Beaver's account and a very interesting article by Rowland White about the dog-fight and Brian Ellis' version of events.

 

In the article by Paul Beaver there's a photo of 'Brian 'Schmoo' Ellis' Sea Fury'. This would have been taken after the MiG downing and after the black and white i/d stripes were removed from the wings and fuselage. You can see the fresh sky paint under the wings where they've been painted out, and that the ailerons were not painted (as Fundecals correctly portray in their instructions). And (I probably shouldn't have spotted this as it will cost me money) the port wheel is block treaded and the starboard diamond treaded.

 

And (I'm sorry about this) some more 'Official' recognition of Brian Ellis' part in shooting down the MiG. This is from Navy News (published by the MOD) dated November 2017:

 

'In August 1952 a formation of RN Sea Furies and Fireflies was ‘bounced’ over Korea by Soviet-built MiG-15 jets. In the ensuing, very rapid, dogfight, one of the North Korean jets was shot down after 20mm cannon shells ripped into it. It’s the Fleet Air Arm’s sole ‘kill’ of an enemy jet by a propeller-driven fighter, justly celebrated and, for 65 years, attributed to flight leader Lt Peter ‘Hoagy’ Carmichael. But more than six decades later, credit for the kill is increasingly being attributed to then Sub Lt Brian ‘Smoo’ Ellis, who also engaged the MiG in the frantic encounter. Now aged 86 and one of the few surviving Naval aviators of Korean War vintage, he joined author, pilot and aviation historian Paul Beaver for a day’s celebration of the Sea Fury, during which he recounted what he remembered of the MiG encounter, before guests were treated to a display by the Sea Fury and Lt Cdr Götke. “I think ‘awesome’ is the word that comes to me,” he said as he got up close with the legendary British fighter once more. “What a privilege it was to spend your days flying these aircraft.”'

 

Not definitive recognition (credit for the kill is increasingly being attributed to then Sub Lt Brian ‘Smoo’ Ellis) but its great that he finally is getting due credit. Can there ever be a conclusion? I doubt it. A quarter each would be OK as the 802 Sqn diarist said at the time.

 

Cheers,

Edited October 10, 2019 by Johnson
More info

[Brian J]

Many thanks for that latest comment.  I agree with your conclusions that at this late date it will be impossible to conclude who should be given credit for the shoot down.  When you have three or four pilots contributing to this 'kill', who deserves credit?  As far as doing a model of a Korean War Sea Fury involved in that historic engagement, a modeler appears to have a choice as to the markings and they wouldn't be wrong!

[Seawinder]

On 7/18/2019 at 2:01 AM, Grey Beema said:

Same for me - I have the Sea Fury in the stash and will at the appropriate time purchase he Fundekals set.  I think I read Ellis has been credited with the victory but would also like confirmation.

FWIW, I just finished the Airfix Sea Fury in markings for O-106, but the decals came from the Barracuda sheet, which is IMHO very well done, and might be a viable alternative. According to their instruction sheet, Carmichael was given credit for the shoot-down, but never claimed it; and Ellis emptied his guns into the MiG, which then crashed.

[Johnson]

I see what @Jordi means about the differences between the 106 as depicted on the Fundecals and BarracudaCals sets, the gap at the top of the 6 is bigger on the Barrcuda set. The 'O' on the tail looks the same in both decal sets. I don't have the Barracuda decals to compare sizes, though they look very good and I may have to acquire them.

 

Here are a couple of pics of '106' aboard HMS Ocean.

 

 

The top one is certainly WJ223 / 106 presumably taken on HMS Ocean sometime after 21 Aug 1952 when the B&W I/D stripes were removed. Possibly taken while replenishing at Saesbo or Kure between patrols. The '106' on the fuselage appears similar to the BarrcudaCals decals. The 106 seems smaller than in the photo below, but this may be an optical illusion caused by the removal of the i/d stripes? Or it may have been repainted when the i/d stripes were removed. The O on the tail also looks bigger in the bottom pic. It may be a completely different aircraft, who knows? I'll have to try some measurement when I have more time (I'm supposed to be finishing a Corsair II in the FROG GB!)

 

A couple of other things struck me looking at WJ223 in the top pic. It has diamond pattern tread on the stbd tyre and block pattern tread on the port. But what's really got me scratching my head is what's under the stbd wing, the partial code number that would have been partially obscured by the B&W i/d stripes that were later overpainted by fresh 'sky' paint. It looks like WE, not WJ. If that's right, why would that be? Maybe the outer wing got changed due to damage from another u/s Fury?

 

Cheers,

 

 

[Truro Model Builder]

To quote the Intelligence Officer in Battle of Britain:

 

"A third of a kill, laddie..."

[wellsprop]

@Johnson

 

Good point re "WE" not "WJ". 

 

The aircraft clearly carries WE on the right wing, I wonder if the left was the same. 

[iang]

There is a close-up photo of Lt Davis' Sea Fury at the FAAM that clearly shows a Mig kill marking on the port side, so I assume that sharing the kill was agreed at the time.

[JohnT]

On 11/10/2019 at 14:00, Johnson said:

 

 

A couple of other things struck me looking at WJ223 in the top pic. It has diamond pattern tread on the stbd tyre and block pattern tread on the port. But what's really got me scratching my head is what's under the stbd wing, the partial code number that would have been partially obscured by the B&W i/d stripes that were later overpainted by fresh 'sky' paint. It looks like WE, not WJ. If that's right, why would that be? Maybe the outer wing got changed due to damage from another u/s Fury?

 

Cheers,

 

 

 

38 minutes ago, wellsprop said:

@Johnson

 

Good point re "WE" not "WJ". 

 

The aircraft clearly carries WE on the right wing, I wonder if the left was the same. 

After peering at the photo a while I “think” I see a tonal difference between the outer underwing paint where the E of the WE ends. That might support the replacement theory

 

As I am posting I’ve just finished a book on the Corsair that says a US Corsair claimed a Mig15 kill in Korea as well. 
 

ps

after a bit more peering it could be the aileron is the same colour or at least tonal value as the outer wing panel. Clipped it on a deck landing?

[wellsprop]

@JohnT just be aware that the photo of 106 was taken very recently after it had the ID stripes removed. Therefore the noticeable change in colour/tone may be due to having ID bands overpaidnted. 

[JohnT]

8 minutes ago, wellsprop said:

@JohnT just be aware that the photo of 106 was taken very recently after it had the ID stripes removed. Therefore the noticeable change in colour/tone may be due to having ID bands overpaidnted. 

Good point. Hadn’t thought of that

 

I noticed later that the whole of the aileron looked the same as the outer wing panel. 
it does look like the underwing serial doesn’t match though. Like the song there are more questions than answers 

 

 

[Johnson]

12 hours ago, JohnT said:

I noticed later that the whole of the aileron looked the same as the outer wing panel.

And the fuselage shows no sign of the glossier paint, which gives support to the theory that the outer starboard wing of WJ223 had been replaced by one from the WE Sea Fury range. If the wing is original to WJ223, and the i/d stripes on the fuselage had been painted out at the same time as the wings, one might expect the fuselage to show tonal differences, gloss where the i/d stripes were.

 

13 hours ago, iang said:

There is a close-up photo of Lt Davis' Sea Fury at the FAAM that clearly shows a Mig kill marking on the port side

 

I assume that FAAM = Fleet Air Arm Museum? I wish I'd known that when I visited the museum last year! Do you have any more details of the photo @iang? A reference number? Location in the FAAM? A copy? Sounds like I may need to study it. I've now bought the BarracudaCals Hawker Sea Fury Part 1 and they look absolutely stunning. But no kill marking for 106/WJ223, nor in the Fundecals set.

 

Cheers,

[wellsprop]

This video describes what happened and the reason for Carmichael being awarded the kill (he was the flight lead). The accounts from the pilots of that flight were taken and the evidence for Ellis getting the kill is the strongest. 

 

 

I think its also worth pointing out that (despite what some comments -particularly on youtube - say) the kill was never "stolen" by a senior ranking officer (Carmichael), who never in fact claimed the kill, the kill was however officially rewarded to him some time after the event. This was fairly common within the RAF and FAA if there was any uncertainty at all regarding a kill, it would often go to the most senior officer or flight commander.

 

Generally, it seems pilots weren't too concerned about their own kill score and were much more concerned about their unit/squadron kills - this was true during WWII too.

[Johnson]

Thanks @wellsprop, a good video and very good to hear Brian Ellis talking about the incident.

 

When this thread was first being aired, I came across another record of an interview with Ellis, it covers much the same ground as the video and what's been discussed above, but I think it makes interesting reading nevertheless;

 

http://britains-smallwars.com/campaigns/korea/page.php?art_url=seafurydogfight

 

I don't think it's been linked here before, apologies if I'm wrong.

[iang]

8 hours ago, Johnson said:

And the fuselage shows no sign of the glossier paint, which gives support to the theory that the outer starboard wing of WJ223 had been replaced by one from the WE Sea Fury range. If the wing is original to WJ223, and the i/d stripes on the fuselage had been painted out at the same time as the wings, one might expect the fuselage to show tonal differences, gloss where the i/d stripes were.

 

 

I assume that FAAM = Fleet Air Arm Museum? I wish I'd known that when I visited the museum last year! Do you have any more details of the photo @iang? A reference number? Location in the FAAM? A copy? Sounds like I may need to study it. I've now bought the BarracudaCals Hawker Sea Fury Part 1 and they look absolutely stunning. But no kill marking for 106/WJ223, nor in the Fundecals set.

 

Cheers,

Hi Charlie,

 

Yes, Fleet Air Arm Museum,  FAAM Neg No. Sea Fury 99. Labelled 802 Squadron "Sortie Markings".

 

HTH,

Ian

[Johnson]

Hi Ian @iang

Thanks for the details.

I've just sent off an enquiry to the FAAM about getting a copy of the photo. Be interesting to see what, if anything, I get back. I'll keep the thread posted.

Cheers,

[Blimpyboy]

On 10/10/2019 at 9:50 AM, 72modeler said:

The Sea Fury was the only piston-engined fighter to shoot down a jet in Korea

What about Jesse Folmar in his F4U?

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/f4u-vs-mig-15-the-story-of-how-the-wwii-corsair-became-a-mig-killer/amp/

 

 

 

Speaking of bomber kills:

https://www.airuniversity.af.edu/Portals/10/AFEHRI/documents/AerialGunnerParachutist/diboll.pdf

 

 

And who could forget this close shave almost a decade earlier...

 

Edited February 9, 2021 by Blimpyboy