French F100 camoflage

[RidgeRunner]

Thanks, Wez. I'll read this tomorrow ;).

 

M

[RidgeRunner]

8 hours ago, Wez said:

One thing is certain, I'm going to have to get myself the EM37 book!

Its on sale at the moment ;). Mine came - from France - in four days!

 

Martin

[stevehnz]

Where does one look for this book? I'm guessing post to the antipodes might be a killer but surely no harm in looking.

Steve.

[Wez]

6 hours ago, stevehnz said:

Where does one look for this book? I'm guessing post to the antipodes might be a killer but surely no harm in looking.

Steve.

Steve,

 

EM37's website is here.

 

Go to the Bon de commande link, here's where it gets complicated (and is what I did to get my Super Mystère book)...   ...download the pdf, fill in your details on the 2nd page and then e-mail that to EM37, they'll let you know how much it will cost to buy the book and ship it to you in your far distant lands.  You then do the payment thing and hopefully the book will be on its way to you.

 

@RidgeRunner is that what you had to go through to get the book?

 

 

[RidgeRunner]

1 hour ago, Wez said:

Steve,

 

EM37's website is here.

 

Go to the Bon de commande link, here's where it gets complicated (and is what I did to get my Super Mystère book)...   ...download the pdf, fill in your details on the 2nd page and then e-mail that to EM37, they'll let you know how much it will cost to buy the book and ship it to you in your far distant lands.  You then do the payment thing and hopefully the book will be on its way to you.

 

@RidgeRunner is that what you had to go through to get the book?

 

 

Hi Wez,

 

I emailed Eric Moreau directly as I bought from him before. Essentially it is the same thing. He takes the money by bank transfer and posts. QuIck and easy.

 

M

[Wez]

Well I received my EM37 book today and I'm very pleased with it, I think the layout of the Super Mystère book is better, I think they learned a bit from this their first book.

 

The whole question of the light blue grey underside colour not coming up in the translation I did from the extract Martin ( @RidgeRunner ), had sent me was bothering me so I went straight to the section at the back where all the profiles, individual aircraft histories and details of the paint schemes are, I am bothered no more.

 

In the section at the bottom of page 273 entitled Les peintures utilisées dans l'armée de l'Air (The paints used in the French Air Force), it lists the colours of paints used on the F-100, interestingly it lists a Gris bleu clair or Light Blue Grey to you and me, it gives an FS number for this as 36522, what this equates to I don't know, 36xxx would make it a matt grey of some sort but whether it's a blue shade I don't know (can anyone else help)?  There is another colour listed, it's simply called Ciel (Sky), this is listed as a gloss blue shade in the FS convention as FS15526 however, there is a note which says "les tientes soulignées sont mates" which translates as "the highlighted tints are matt" and this letter shade is one of those, this would suggest that the tint matched the FS shade for colour but was matt in finish, again can anyone help?

 

In summary, the light blue grey shade can be either:

 

Gris bleu clair = FS36522

 

or

 

Ciel = FS15526 (but matt in finish)

[RidgeRunner]

Ah ha! I see that now, Wez :). Thanks for that.

 

Martin

[stevehnz]

Nothing coming up on FS36522 Wez, or 16522, 26522 but 15526 produces this, a bit like some interations of RLM78 to my eye, what I'd call a smokey blue grey.

Steve.

[Wez]

3 hours ago, stevehnz said:

a bit like some interations of RLM78 to my eye,

And to my eye too Steve having looked at a lot of the colour photos, not a bad match at all.

[Terry1954]

Interesting and very useful thread. I particularly liked the link that @Giorgio N posted to the frenchwings.net re the F-100 pics (plus others).

 

I have an F-100 and a SMB2 in the stash, both of which are eventually destined for this scheme.

 

Terry

[72modeler]

14 hours ago, stevehnz said:

Nothing coming up on FS36522 Wez, or 16522, 26522 but 15526 produces this, a bit like some interations of RLM78 to my eye, what I'd call a smokey blue grey.

Steve.

Testors Modelmaster has FS36622 camouflage grey in both their enamel and acrylic paint lines, if that helps. Sometimes hard to find, as both seem to be sold out a lot of the time. I have the enamel and it does have a very faint bluish tint.

Mike

[Wez]

6 hours ago, Terry1954 said:

I have an F-100 and a SMB2 in the stash, both of which are eventually destined for this scheme.

Just remember, the French SMB.2's only had grey undersides when camouflaged, not the blue.

19 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

I have the enamel and it does have a very faint bluish tint

The blue undersides aren't subtle, it's a very definite blue, the suggestion of RLM78 is a good match.

[PhantomBigStu]

Thanks for the clarification re the underside, I went with bluer than it should have been with Revell 49, slightly annoying as I have both RLM78 and FS35622 in my stocks, but looks good enough 

[Terry1954]

4 hours ago, Wez said:

Just remember, the French SMB.2's only had grey undersides when camouflaged, not the blue.

Thanks Wez, will do!

 

Terry

[RidgeRunner]

11 hours ago, Terry1954 said:

 

I have an F-100 and a SMB2 in the stash, both of which are eventually destined for this scheme.

I'm rather taken by the earlier, Israeli camouflage scheme that the French SMB2s carried along with the larger roundels.

[stevehnz]

@72modeler & @PhantomBigStu, I ran the FS shades you guys mentioned through the Colorserver application, neither look right to my eye based on various photos I've seen on the net, in itself a minefield.  36622 too greyish without the distinctblue hue, 35622, to much like Sky type S, so too green & lacking blue, imho. If @Wez has correctly quoted FS36522 from the book, I can find no record on the net of that shade as an FS color.

Steve

[72modeler]

Steve,

 

I'm assuming you have seen these two F-100 colors/markings T.O.'s? If not, see the links below- they might be helpful. Looking at my other camouflage and color print references for the SEA scheme on F-100's, they all call for FS36622 for the undersides, not FS36522, but maybe the latter is closer to what the French used on their Huns?  Best I can do. I would think using color photos would be helpful, not exact, but depending on the filter/film/lighting, you would be able to get a pretty close approximation. I did see photos of several  preserved French Super Sabres on a well-known photo collection website that had undersurfaces that were a pretty intense blue, but you know how that goes with museum/restored aircraft. As I understand it, the F-100's that France got were delivered in bare metal and were painted by the French in an SEA-type scheme that was close to the USAF one, but did not use the same FS colors- I have no idea what those were, so maybe your examining good color photos will get you pretty close; ideally somebody will have documentation for the French equivalent colors. Is this a great hobby, or what?

Mike

 

https://www.cybermodeler.com/aircraft/f-100/f-100_sea.shtml

 

https://www.cybermodeler.com/aircraft/f-100/f-100_to.shtml

 

https://www.cybermodeler.com/aircraft/f-100/f-100_swa.shtml

 

http://www.f-100.org/hun030.shtml

 

 

 

 

[Wez]

12 hours ago, 72modeler said:

As I understand it, the F-100's that France got were delivered in bare metal and were painted by the French in an SEA-type scheme that was close to the USAF one, but did not use the same FS colors- I have no idea what those were, so maybe your examining good color photos will get you pretty close; ideally somebody will have documentation for the French equivalent colors.

You're correct insofar as the French aircraft were delivered in NMF and went through a period of being painted silver either overall or in places for corrosion prevention - these areas were based upon the USAF Technical Orders.  In the early 1970's the French decided they needed to camouflage their aircraft, they did this based upon the pattern laid out in the USAF T.O for SEA camouflage using exactly the same colours as those specified in the T.O but with French manufactured paints (by Celomar), this is detailed in the EM37 book.  There are plenty of photos of French F-100's in this scheme, with grey undersides.

 

The thing with the paints is if they comply with the F.S, they will match in colour when freshly applied but will weather and fade differently to those made by other vendors e.g. differently to US manufactured paints.

 

At some point, the French decided they light gray F.S.36622 paints weren't working for them and changed to the blue-grey colour, looking at photos this appears to be before the deployment of F-100's to Djibouti.  This colour is distinctly blue in hue, some period photos show this as quite a vivid shade but I take your point about filters and types of film changing the appearance of the actual colour.

 

The EM37 book lists a colour Ciel - sky in French, we shouldn't confuse this with the yellowish, greenish, greyish British colour Sky.  It gives the colour as a match for FS15526 which Steve has matched to something close to RLM78, this looks pretty close to the blue used in many of the photos.

 

I've gotta go to work now but one last parting gesture - you're right, this is a great hobby!

Edited August 7, 2019 by Wez

[RidgeRunner]

19 minutes ago, Wez said:

You're correct insofar as the French aircraft were delivered in NMF and went through a period of being painted silver either overall or in places for corrosion prevention - these areas were based upon the USAF Technical Orders.  In the early 1970's the French decided they needed to camouflage their aircraft, they did this based upon the pattern laid out in the USAF T.O for SEA camouflage using exactly the same colours as those specified in the T.O but with French manufactured paints (by Celmar), this is detailed in the EM37 book.  There are plenty of photos of French F-100's in this scheme, with grey undersides.

 

The thing with the paints is if they comply with the F.S, they will match in colour when freshly applied but will weather and fade differently to those made by other vendors e.g. differently to US manufactured paints.

 

At some point, the French decided they light gray F.S.36622 paints weren't working for them and changed to the blue-grey colour, looking at photos this appears to be before the deployment of F-100's to Djibouti.  This colour is distinctly blue in hue, some period photos show this as quite a vivid shade but I take your point about filters and types of film changing the appearance of the actual colour.

 

The EM37 book lists a colour Ciel - sky in French, we shouldn't confuse this with the yellowish, greenish, greyish British colour Sky.  It gives the colour as a match for FS15526 which Steve has matched to something close to RLM78, this looks pretty close to the blue used in many of the photos.

 

I've gotta go to work now but one last parting gesture - you're right, this is a great hobby!

Its worth saying, Wez, that from the wealth of available images - in the book and on line - there are very few of French Super Sabres with pristine, "out of the paint shop" finishes. It looks to me like those Celomer paints weathered as they opened the paint shop door! .

 

I think it is also worth saying that for anyone considering a "NMF" finish on a French Sabre (like me) that there was an equally as complex history of natural metal, laquers, etc.....

 

I'll say the same - a great hobby. I love this research aspect of it! 

 

Martin

Edited August 7, 2019 by RidgeRunner

[tempestfan]

Thanks for making me aware of EM37- while not inexpensive in absolute figures, I think I have a good idea of what to expect, and feel all three tomes will be on their way soon 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼

[stevehnz]

Someone on here put up a link to a PDF of French Air Force colours in the last year or so(ish) I have it saved somewhere, maybe on another 'puter, I'll have a look for it later this evening, tea time here just now.  

@72modeler Mike, I had seen the cybermodeler links but not the f-100.org one, some excellent stuff in there & really good for when I get around to doing a WW F-100 in Vietnam, but even though the colours of the French F-100s were nominally SEA colours, they were with a french twist & thus lacking exact equivalents as far as FS shades are concerned, so open to some interpretation & from a modelling view point dependent on how much or little one wishes to portray the fairly obvious weathering these machines exhibited.

Steve.

Edited August 7, 2019 by stevehnz

[RidgeRunner]

38 minutes ago, tempestfan said:

Thanks for making me aware of EM37- while not inexpensive in absolute figures, I think I have a good idea of what to expect, and feel all three tomes will be on their way soon 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼

To be clear I have no affiliation with EM37 Editions! I just think they are great books!

 

Martin

[tempestfan]

I am very certain they are, I have Tome 3 and 4 of the Mirage saga in which EM participated, and well, what can I say... As they have gone to self-publishing (Mirage #4 was by Lela, where I would have had a Chance of noticing the range) apparently, I would likely have become Aware of the range when they have gone to Mirage #1 and #2 state - unobtainium... Mail sent to Eric already.

[Giorgio N]

3 hours ago, stevehnz said:

Someone on here put up a link to a PDF of French Air Force colours in the last year or so(ish) I have it saved somewhere, maybe on another 'puter, I'll have a look for it later this evening, tea time here just now.

Steve.

 

Don't know if it's the same document you are referring to, but it is possible to find online some older versions of NORMDEF 0001 - Coleurs de la Defence Nationale, an official French document stating all colours approved for use by the armed forces of that country. A massive document, with 186 pages, listing all approved colours and their use, reference to existing standards for the colours when these apply (generally the AFNOR standard) and even CIELAB values for all colours and the tolerances for each colours. The document also contains formulas regarding the use of the values given and IR reflectivity ranges. A great document for those interested in these things, that unfortunately poses a serious problem for modellers: while all colours are listed with their use, this is only expressed in general: you can find that a certain colour is used for camouflage of aircraft, but not which aircraft uses which colours. This is made even more complicated by the fact that often we have references to Celomer paints, but any number attached to a Celomer paint is a catalogue number given by this company (that I believe is now part of PPG), so without anything to convert the catalogue number into the AFNOR standard it's not easy to find the colour in the document..

Still it's a very valid document when looking for a certain colour, as the reference to the standards and the presence of CIELAB space values means that it's possible to identify what the colour is like

One other aspect to consider is that I don't know when this document first started being used ! It may very well be that it was not in use when the F-100 was in service, so may not be useful in this case. At the same time it's very well possible that the same colour used on these aircraft survived into later years and made it into the document when first issued.

[stevehnz]

That sounds very much like it Giorgio, now where did I put the damn thing.

I hi-lited Giorgio's title NORMDEF 0001 - Coleurs de la Defence Nationale, & hit google search which took me straight too it, however, it does not appear to include facsimile colours but involves what appears to be in-depth descriptions of colour perhaps referred to a key, too involved for my French & I'm can't see it being useful unless to someone with knowledge of the system being used.   

Steve.

Edited August 7, 2019 by stevehnz