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PhantomBigStu

French F100 camoflage

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Starting work on a French airforce supersabre, was under the impression it used the same 3 tone over grey camo as USAF ones, however I’ve been led to believe the underside and at least the tan is different? Can anyone help out?

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Hi Stu.Just built Hasegawa/Frog Sabre in the Frog GB,I think I read like me you were doing the Sharkmouth machine based in Djibouti in the mid seventies.

These machines had pale blue undersides and very faded paintwork. My local museum has one in original paint and I'd say the tan is more earth if that makes

sense and remember if you weather it the sharkmouth should be left pristine as they were painted in theatre.

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235057440-shake-djibouti-f100-sabre-french-af/

 

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15 hours ago, stevej60 said:

Hi Stu.Just built Hasegawa/Frog Sabre in the Frog GB,I think I read like me you were doing the Sharkmouth machine based in Djibouti in the mid seventies.

These machines had pale blue undersides and very faded paintwork. My local museum has one in original paint and I'd say the tan is more earth if that makes

sense and remember if you weather it the sharkmouth should be left pristine as they were painted in theatre.

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235057440-shake-djibouti-f100-sabre-french-af/

 

Ok so the underside is different, what about the upper colours, I know not to trust italeri paint call outs  but they have not gone with the SEA combo of fs30219/34079/34102, 

48297642872_9ef33e65c7_b.jpg

 

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Hi Stu,this is where I can't be much help as I mix all my paints from Tamiya base colours I will say that the Example in Sunderland apart from

my  earth rather than tan opinion to me the greens were similar to Newark's US Sabre,I wanted that worn look so lightened dark earth,Olive green

and mixed both with yellow for the lighter green.

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Somebody shoot me down if I am wrong but my understanding is that they were standard US SEA - like the later SMB2 scheme - with the exception of the blue undersides. Not all had that, though.

 

Martin 

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F-100s were received by the French in natural metal and when camouflage was introduced it was based on the SEA scheme but using French paints. These differed somewhat from the ones used in the SEA scheme, I think I have some references somewhere but at a first glance the differences are:

- the dark green is quite different, the French colour is a bit darker but most important is browner and greyer.

- the lighter green is not too different, the French one is maybe a tad lighter but IMHO standard FS 34102 will work.

- the French tan is more brown and less red, more a sand than a tan

- the undersurfaces were in a blue grey

As often happens, the Italeri guide is completely wrong...

Edited by Giorgio N

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3 minutes ago, PhantomBigStu said:

Thanks @Giorgio N I shall look in the ranges I use for ones that meet the descriptions 

Even better than following my descriptions, have a look at a few pictures and see what paints may work. Plenty of pictures of French F-100s can be found here

 

http://www.frenchwings.net/combat/gallery/index.php

 

The gallery of the Super Sabres of the 11eme Escadre is maybe the best for camouflaged machines

 

http://www.frenchwings.net/combat/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=55

 

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9 hours ago, RidgeRunner said:

Somebody shoot me down if I am wrong but my understanding is that they were standard US SEA - like the later SMB2 scheme - with the exception of the blue undersides. Not all had that, though.

 

Martin 

Oo er .... I was so wrong! :(

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On 17 July 2019 at 12:10 PM, RidgeRunner said:

@PhantomBigStu @Giorgio N @stevej60 Hmm.... this thread has finally pushed me to get the EM37 book ;). Now on order :)

 

Martin

 

@PhantomBigStu

 

Hmmm ..... It has arrived and it must be THE book on the French Super Sabre! :). If only I coyld understand French! I will look through for any paint references for you when I get time....

 

Martin

 

@Giorgio N @stevej60

 

 

@Wez there are some great close up photos of the target dart that you were contemplatimg for your SMB2

Edited by RidgeRunner

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7 hours ago, RidgeRunner said:

 

@PhantomBigStu

 

Hmmm ..... It has arrived and it must be THE book on the French Super Sabre! :). If only I coyld understand French! I will look through for any paint references for you when I get time....

 

Martin

 

@Giorgio N @stevej60

 

 

@Wez there are some great close up photos of the target dart that you were contemplatimg for your SMB2

 

Martin,

 

Thanks for the heads-up on that, the book was on offer at half price earlier in the year but I was too busy to buy one at the time.

 

As for French translations, I picked up a lot from technical manuals that were poorly translated from French early in my career, then there was all of those old Heller instruction sheets...   ...Google translate is a help but I find Reverso is very good for giving you the context of a translation.

 

The target dart would add a big splash of colour to any F-100 although what I'd really like to understand is how they clipped the cable to the underside of the fuselage between the winch on one wing pylon and the dart on the opposite wing pylon on both the SMB.2 and now the F-100.

 

Does the EM37 book have a section at the back discussing the camouflage colours like the SMB.2 book does?

 

@PhantomBigStu the EM37 SMB.2 book gives the following information about their camouflage schemes:

 

The Vietnam scheme used on SMB.2's in the late 1960's used the following colours:

 

Brun clair (Light Brown) = FS.30219

Vert foncé (Dark Green) = FS.34079

Vert clair (Light Green) = FS.34102

Gris clair (Light Grey) = FS.36622

 

In other words, the same colours as used by the US.

 

Ine the early 1970's the SMB.2's were repainted in the following colours:

 

Terre foncée (Dark Earth) = has a Celeomer reference of Y/GAM2025 - its definitely a darker, more earthy colour than the Vietnam Tan.

The remaining colours (the two greens and the grey), were to the same FS shades as the Vietnam scheme but were semi=gloss rather than matt (the grey's finish is not specified but it makes sense that all of the shades were semi-matt (e.g. satin) finish.

 

I would suggest the darker tan you see on the F-100's is actually Terre foncée, as for the undersides, I always thought they were a very pale blue grey, kind of like the Israeli underside pale blue grey although I have no evidence to substantiate that.

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@Wez your message box is full, mate

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, RidgeRunner said:

@Wez your message box is full, mate

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've just made some space!

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Hmmmm ... it still says you can't receive messages :( @Wez

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48 minutes ago, RidgeRunner said:

Hmmmm ... it still says you can't receive messages :( @Wez

Inbox is only at 54% :huh:

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16 minutes ago, RidgeRunner said:

did you get it? @Wez

Yes thanks

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Interesting the greens are listed as the same, I have used Humbrols take on the lighter green and xtracrylix RLM70 with vallejo field drab as the tan, so it looks distinct from the SEA painted phantom I’m also working on which I’ve painted with the XA FS paints

48380106937_3df7c460f9_b.jpg

 

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Martin ( @RidgeRunner  ) has sent me a scan of the camouflage details from the EM37 book, I'll have a bash at translating or at least making some sense of it but that won't be tonight as I'm off out to dinner with the Wonderful Mrs Wez.

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Hi Stu @PhantomBigStu. I think your colours will turn out too dark, I'm afraid. My belief - backed by @Giorgio N's post earlier - is that while the intention was to mimic the US SEA scheme and paints, the French went for French paints (Celomer) and they turned out quite different in colour, even when newly applied. Having now trawled through the EM37 book I can see that Giorgio is absolutely right. However, let's see what @Wez can dig up in his translation. 

 

Martin

 

Edited by RidgeRunner

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2 minutes ago, RidgeRunner said:

Hi Stu @PhantomBigStu. I think your colours will turn out too dark, I'm afraid. My belief - backed by @Giorgio N's post earlier - is that while the intention was to mimic the US SEA scheme and paints, the French went for French paints (Celomer) and they turned out quite different in colour, even when newly applied. Having now trawled through the EM37 book I can see that Giorgio is absolutely right. However, let's see what @Wez can dig up in his translation. 

 

Martin

 

My initial read supports just that but I'll confirm tomorrow.

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Weirdly the colours seem to be very close to the Guatemalan F-51D later colours, although not connected in any way. The latter were the result of sun bleaching..... ........... I think! ;)

 

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I've had the chance to review and translate the extract from the EM37 book which @RidgeRunner sent me.

 

In summary:

 

Starting in the spring of 1972, French F-100’s began to receive camouflage as they went through IRAN maintenance and/or modification so it was a gradual process.

 

They were camouflaged to the US pattern with exactly the same shades as specified in the US SEA scheme however, the paints were manufactured in France by Celomer and would have a different composition to the US paints so will have weathered differently as @Giorgio N has already suggested.

 

These shades were:

 

FS.34079 Forest Green

FS.34102 Medium Green

FS.34219 Tan (I think this is a typo in the EM37 book and should be FS.30219)

FS.36622 Very Pale Grey

 

When the camouflage was applied the other marking were reduced in size and spacing but were generally retained in similar locations to previously.  The stencil markings were retained in the same size and style as those used on NMF aircraft and were in English language.  Originally, the titanium skinned, hot rear end of the fuselage was not painted but this changed with later aircraft.

 

At some point, F-100’s received a pale blue grey underside, this shade is not specified but can be seen in many photos.

 

Here, here and here

 

One thing is certain, I'm going to have to get myself the EM37 book!

Edited by Wez

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