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Grex vs Eclipse vs Krome?


Bstarr3

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I've been using a Badger Patriot 105 for a few years. It's a fine brush - adequate for most jobs and certainly my skill level. But I think I've gotten good enough that I'd like to try a better tool. In the $150-175 range I am looking at the Iwata HP-CS and the Grex xGi3 (or xSi - any opinions on side feed vs traditional gravity feed?). For slightly cheaper the Badger Krome also seems to get good marks. Both the Grex and the Krome have an adjustable trigger stop, which seems like it would be helpful for fine line detail, while the Iwata doesn't. Any opinions on these brushes? I'm really not wanting to jump up in price to the H&S brushes, and I've heard that they are very fragile as far as the needles. I'm also interested in easy cleaning, as keeping your brush thoroughly clean is really one of the keys to having it perform as it should. How are these products to clean, in general, or compared to the Patriot? Thanks

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Can't really help with your choice but I can say that I switched from a Badger brush many years ago and have Iwata, Tamiya and Mr Hobby brushes now. I can honestly say that I rarely use the Iwata. I find it uncomfortable to hold and it makes my hand ache. The Tamiya is a pistol grip trigger type and is an excellent workhorse and very comfortable and super reliable, I use it a lot. But my favourite by far is the Mr Hobby Procon Boy brush. So easy to use, clean and both comfortable and reliable. One thing I would say is that I was incredibly disappointed with the Iwata as I had always heard great things about them, but they didn't live up to my expectations at all. But I can say I never regretted ditching the Badger for a second...

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3 hours ago, Bstarr3 said:

I've been using a Badger Patriot 105 for a few years. It's a fine brush - adequate for most jobs and certainly my skill level. But I think I've gotten good enough that I'd like to try a better tool. In the $150-175 range I am looking at the Iwata HP-CS and the Grex xGi3 (or xSi - any opinions on side feed vs traditional gravity feed?). For slightly cheaper the Badger Krome also seems to get good marks. Both the Grex and the Krome have an adjustable trigger stop, which seems like it would be helpful for fine line detail, while the Iwata doesn't. Any opinions on these brushes? I'm really not wanting to jump up in price to the H&S brushes, and I've heard that they are very fragile as far as the needles. I'm also interested in easy cleaning, as keeping your brush thoroughly clean is really one of the keys to having it perform as it should. How are these products to clean, in general, or compared to the Patriot? Thanks

Surely it's the right brush for the right job.  As we don;t know what you want to use the brush for ( fine detail, area work, dioramas etc.) it's difficult to advise.  What do you like & dislike about the Patriot?   PS H&S upgraded their needles last year and are now more resilient.

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Good to know about increased resilience with the H&S. Thank you. But I still think they're more expensive than I would like to spend. 

 

I work with 1/48 and 1/32 planes, and I want to start working on dioramas.  I brushpaint the figures that I've used in the couple of vignettes that I've done. I'm thinking I'll save my Badger to spray primers and clears with the 0.5 needle/nozzle combo, and would like to be able to use my new brush for everything else, including freehand camo and mottling.  So in other words, I would be happy to err towards the side of more of a detail brush, but not too small.  After reading a little bit about the Mr Hobby brush above, I must say that I'm adding that to the list of consideration, especially at the price point. Any time one asks for options of A vs B, it always ends up as A vs B vs C vs D!

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I had a Badger 360, and it was a fine brush. I got an Iwata HP-TH (0.5mm) and really like it for primer, base, and clear coats as well as Alclad. I was very happy with that, so I then got an Iwata HP-CH (0.3mm). Very happy with this one, too.

 

Agree that 0.5mm and 0.3mm brushes should satisfy your needs. I find them both easy to clean. 

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48 minutes ago, Bstarr3 said:

Good to know about increased resilience with the H&S. Thank you. But I still think they're more expensive than I would like to spend. 

 

I work with 1/48 and 1/32 planes, and I want to start working on dioramas.  I brushpaint the figures that I've used in the couple of vignettes that I've done. I'm thinking I'll save my Badger to spray primers and clears with the 0.5 needle/nozzle combo, and would like to be able to use my new brush for everything else, including freehand camo and mottling.  So in other words, I would be happy to err towards the side of more of a detail brush, but not too small.  After reading a little bit about the Mr Hobby brush above, I must say that I'm adding that to the list of consideration, especially at the price point. Any time one asks for options of A vs B, it always ends up as A vs B vs C vs D!

Not sure how the pricing for H&S goes over there, but they aren't expensive.  For your application I would expect something like the H&S Evolution Silverline Solo (0.2mm nozzle 2ml paint cup & preset handle ) would be what I would suggest.  Export price about $105, $120 inc insured postage.  Spares nozzles export price $14, needles $9.50, set of O rings for the whole brush about $10. 

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I've only seen evolutions going for about $220 on us based retailers, and infinities for over $300. Can you recommend a specific site where I could find that proce? Also, wouldn't 0.2 be a little small for spraying anything other than fine detail? 

3 hours ago, dnl42 said:

I had a Badger 360, and it was a fine brush. I got an Iwata HP-TH (0.5mm) and really like it for primer, base, and clear coats as well as Alclad. I was very happy with that, so I then got an Iwata HP-CH (0.3mm). Very happy with this one, too.

 

Agree that 0.5mm and 0.3mm brushes should satisfy your needs. I find them both easy to clean. 

Alright, another vote for Iwata. Thanks

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9 hours ago, Steve Noble said:

Can't really help with your choice but I can say that I switched from a Badger brush many years ago and have Iwata, Tamiya and Mr Hobby brushes now. I can honestly say that I rarely use the Iwata. I find it uncomfortable to hold and it makes my hand ache. The Tamiya is a pistol grip trigger type and is an excellent workhorse and very comfortable and super reliable, I use it a lot. But my favourite by far is the Mr Hobby Procon Boy brush. So easy to use, clean and both comfortable and reliable. One thing I would say is that I was incredibly disappointed with the Iwata as I had always heard great things about them, but they didn't live up to my expectations at all. But I can say I never regretted ditching the Badger for a second...

How easy is the Gunze brush to clean compared to iwata. Does it have a self centering nozzle or screw in?

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@Bstarr3

 

Hi, one thing to bear in mind when reading replies is that this is predominantly a UK-based site - still very friendly and full of great advice, but be aware that we don’t have the same product ranges as you do in the US.  For example, we many be aware of Grex but for all intents and purposes they don’t really exist in the UK.   Iwata tend to be more expensive here in the UK than they are in the US - in the UK Iwata are the most expensive of the main brands especially for spares.  Badger are available in the UK, and competitively priced but probably not as widespread as in the US.  But it is not all bad news over here, H&S are reasonably priced, on the whole I’d say a little cheaper than Iwata to start with but a lot cheaper when it comes to spares.  Now that Iwata own H&S you may see the prices start to improve in the US.

 

The consensus here in the UK is that Iwata and H&S are pretty equal in quality and performance.  Over here, H&S tend to be a little cheaper, you get more ‘bells and whistles’, and spares are a lot cheaper all of which drives up the popularity of H&S.

 

I have Iwata, but the only reason for this is that I was doing a lot of business travel to the US at the time.  I was looking at the H&S Infinity 2in1 and had it not been for my business trips that is what I would have gone with.  But in the US I found I was able to buy Iwatas for around 50-60% of what I would have to pay in the UK and settled on an Eclipse CS and an HP-B-Plus.

 

I got my Eclipse from Hobby Lobby using the the 40% coupon that is always available on their website.  At the moment they are selling it for $150, use the 40% coupon and it'll come down to $90 - I don't think you could beat that anywhere.

 

Cheers,

 

Nigel

 

 

 

 

Edited by nheather
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11 hours ago, Bstarr3 said:

How easy is the Gunze brush to clean compared to iwata. Does it have a self centering nozzle or screw in?

The nozzle on mine is, I believe, the screw in type. The brush is very easy to clean. I very rarely have to strip it down to clean it, just flush through with cleaning agent and that's it..

Also, I'm not knocking Iwata, just the one that I had I found uncomfortable to use (Revolution CR) it sprayed well, I can't fault the way it sprayed..

Edited by Steve Noble
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I have Badger, Iwata and H&S brushes and travel to & from the US as I'm a dual national: My 10 cents, go with Badger, between the Krome/Renegade/Patriot and the Sotar you'll have most bases covered and the US support for Badger is phenomenal. Grex have an unusual dual taper needle that allegedly makes detail work easier but in my experience the Sotar eats it alive for modelling work  where instead of spraying thinned water dye into absorbent paper towel (medicine show trick for showing airbrushed hairlines - see at end*), we spray thinned lacquer or acrylic paints  onto a rock hard non porous surface and it bounces right back at ya. If you do big things then something like the Iwata Hp-Th in the pic or the RG3 is peanuts compared to the UK, over there.

 

H&S & Badger  have BIG 1/4" nozzles that self center and the brushes strip and re-assemble  in minutes: Iwata's, Mr Hobby, Olympos have teeny tiny 2 mm nozzles that have microscopic  o-rings and need miniature spanners plus  weird and wacky bits bof bent metal springs  for the trigger etc and are a righteous  PITA if they ever need dis-assembling. FWIW I use the H& S Evo (0.4MM) for primers and varnish:

 

46195873652_b5b40653aa_b.jpg&key=e8e266c

 

 

The H&S Infinity for all general paint (0.2mm):

 

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I have a weird routine where  I strip my brush and give my workhorse H&S's a gun wash bath+ ultrasonic clean  after every spray see here:

- easy peasy with H&S : As I own a car restoration business with two paint shops, I have a different definition of the word "clean" to most modelling folk., Plus H&S bits are cheap and Paul from Modelling Tools is at virtually  every show I go to with his container load of H&S spares...The Sotar is to pull off stunts like 0.5-1 mm mottles on 1/72:

 

port1b.JPG&key=e4f45872c611be86630f1bdd3

 

The HP-TH  (big trigger action job top right in pic) is only occasionally used for laying down primer/varnish but mostly for my various guitar/woodwork restos and I got it silly cheap in Tokyo a few years back. When I move 1/48 and 1/32 it should prove invaluable in theory.

 

If I was in the Continental   US I'd have a Badger Anything with 0.2/0.4 nozzle sets and a Sotar 20/20F for detail work and know that support is near instantaneous and spares plentiful and cheap. Note the Sotar is a one trick pony- super fine detail and thats it, putting bigger needles etc defeats what it was designed for. Finally The Donald may give you a free baseball cap for buying US made...

 

If you want to see what results I'm getting check out my threads, 2-3 finishes a month all recent with WIPS, and note these are 1/72 you are looking at, 4-5 inches long in the real world with big clear high-res pics so no internet re-quoting BS going down here.

 

 

33220099268_acca263ac5_b.jpg

 

BTW all my brushes are between 2-6 years old,and all get used nearly daily (check my build threads) , see what I mean by "clean"?  Oh if you have industrial grade masochistic tendencies and truly enjoy Pain Beyond Description, try an Aztek... Have fun!

 

Anil

 

 

* Roll up, roll up folks and see the incredible airbrush hairlines on paper  towels , no skill needed!

 

sotarlines.jpg&key=8a3c48caa951463c3f93d

 

 

 

 

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@azureglo

 

The Iwata Eclipse has a big self-centring nozzle but I agree the other models have tiny nozzles with an eye-watering price tag in the UK.

 

I discovered the Badger range too late - when I visited Barwell Bodyworks - would certainly have given them a closer look had I not already bought my Iwatas.

 

Cheers,

 

Nigel

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Whatever advice you are given here, your best bet is to try some of the brushes to see how they perform.

 

See If they feel right in the hand, have the spray rangy you need are easy to clean strip down and check the price & availability of spares. 

 

Paul

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You wouldn't think we were modelers the way some go on about Iwata nozzels being small, some of the PE with kits these days is nigh impossible to pick up and glue in the right place 😉

All Iwata's and not yet broke or lost a nozzel 🥺

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2 hours ago, colin said:

You wouldn't think we were modelers the way some go on about Iwata nozzels being small, some of the PE with kits these days is nigh impossible to pick up and glue in the right place 😉

All Iwata's and not yet broke or lost a nozzel 🥺

I think it is the combination of them being small, threaded and by default using the basic spanner to fit.  It doesn’t leave much margin for making a mistake or being a little heavy handed.

 

But I agree, I have never broken one and if you are careful I don’t see why you should.  I have a nozzle spanner which I think is a big improvement over using the traditional style spanner supplied with the airbrushes.

 

Cheers,

 

Nigel

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19 hours ago, colin said:

I can never understand Iwata having that spanner in there in the first place, the amount of leverage you could get using that.I have the Iwata key type wrench which is far easier to use

https://www.air-craft.net/acatalog/Iwata-Nozzle-Wrench.html

Yes that is what I use to.  I agree with  you about the spanner in the box, far to much leverage, doesn't take much finger pressure to sheer the nozzle part from the threaded part.

 

Cheers,

 

Nigel

Edited by nheather
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I'm still on the fence between H&S and Iwata or Mr Hobby. People who have used the GSI Mr Hobby brush, are needles and nozzles interchangeable with Iwata, or just similar? Would that cool little wrench work for the GSI nozzle as well?

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6 hours ago, Bstarr3 said:

I'm still on the fence between H&S and Iwata or Mr Hobby. People who have used the GSI Mr Hobby brush, are needles and nozzles interchangeable with Iwata, or just similar? Would that cool little wrench work for the GSI nozzle as well?

I think some parts are interchangeable between Iwata and GSI...

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Well, after a week of reading every possible review, youtube video, and opinion I could find, I realized that I just had to choose one and go with it.  I've ordered an H&S Evolution Silverline from Paul (thanks for your offline responses, btw), along with an extra 5mL color cup, spare needle, and the two pronged needle cap of the Infinity style.  Very excited to receive it and start using it!  Thanks for all who weighed in here. 

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On 7/17/2019 at 4:48 PM, Bstarr3 said:

Well, after a week of reading every possible review, youtube video, and opinion I could find, I realized that I just had to choose one and go with it.  I've ordered an H&S Evolution Silverline from Paul (thanks for your offline responses, btw), along with an extra 5mL color cup, spare needle, and the two pronged needle cap of the Infinity style.  Very excited to receive it and start using it!  Thanks for all who weighed in here. 

Nice but un patriotic choice, don't expect a Christmas card from the Donald this year. I use my evo everyday and am about to get the black  aluminium one for no other reason than it'd look cool with my Sotar...

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4 hours ago, azureglo said:

Nice but un patriotic choice, don't expect a Christmas card from the Donald this year. I use my evo everyday and am about to get the black  aluminium one for no other reason than it'd look cool with my Sotar...

I like the aluminum one,but since I was already exceeding my budget, I didnt think I could spend the extra money on aesthetics.

 

And, since I'm a pinko commie thug who hates America and ought to go back where I came from, I don't think I was on the Donald's Christmas card list anyway😀

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15 hours ago, Bstarr3 said:

I like the aluminum one,but since I was already exceeding my budget, I didnt think I could spend the extra money on aesthetics.

 

And, since I'm a pinko commie thug who hates America and ought to go back where I came from, I don't think I was on the Donald's Christmas card list anyway😀

Last time I looked The Donald should be booking one way tickets to Germany if he follows his own advice... If it's not too late think about adding a quick release adapter and spare nozzles/needles: The H&S nozzle is quite delicate although its big and made of a softish  brass alloy of some sort, I ding at least two a year. If you're  shooting lacquer thinner of any sort you might want the triple seal kit as well. Finally the aluminium Evo has a rather unexpected advantage if the IRS is  kind to you, its weighs next to nothing and the loaner I have gets used just for random practice because it feels so nice to hold...

 

Happy spraying

 

Anil

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9 hours ago, azureglo said:

Last time I looked The Donald should be booking one way tickets to Germany if he follows his own advice... If it's not too late think about adding a quick release adapter and spare nozzles/needles: The H&S nozzle is quite delicate although its big and made of a softish  brass alloy of some sort, I ding at least two a year. If you're  shooting lacquer thinner of any sort you might want the triple seal kit as well. Finally the aluminium Evo has a rather unexpected advantage if the IRS is  kind to you, its weighs next to nothing and the loaner I have gets used just for random practice because it feels so nice to hold...

 

Happy spraying

 

Anil

Thanks for the tips. I did get an extra needle and nozzle,  as well as a grex qd with mac valve.  I did not know abour the triple seal kit though.  Is that something normally only on the infinity? 

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9 minutes ago, Bstarr3 said:

Thanks for the tips. I did get an extra needle and nozzle,  as well as a grex qd with mac valve.  I did not know abour the triple seal kit though.  Is that something normally only on the infinity? 

The infinity comes with it installed ( well mine did, both of 'em) but not the Evos : The ideal is that although the seal is teflon its lacquer thinner resistant not impervious so some deformation will occur be it warping  or swelling. The triple seal is really just a packing bearing that takes three of the teflon seals and minimises any leakages.

 

You need a small jeweler's flat blade screwdriver (the kind in the cheapie made in China sets) to uninstall/reinstall the packing bearing and don't need to swing for the dedicated tool. BTW unless you use lacquer thinned paint a lot, ( I even finish primers with a neat mist of retarding  thinner!,) these may not be necessary!

 

Here's the links to the bits in question and feel free to ask any questions before committing your hard earned shekels (or even roubles ya pinko!), and  remember I'm a high mileage driver YMMV! BTW Paul will have then too

 

https://www.air-craft.net/acatalog/Triple-Seal-Upgrade.html

 

https://www.air-craft.net/acatalog/Needle-Seal-Tool-1.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI8uzXy_vG4wIVC7DtCh14aA_dEAQYAiABEgLCnvD_BwE

 

Anil 

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