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Ark Royal circa 1587.


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Can I just say that I'm finding this build completely enthralling and utterly inspiring.

 

Even though I didn't realise I had any interest in that era in general or ships in particular, I find myself following your research with a new-found thirst for knowledge. I've even bought an Airfix ship of my own. I chose the Golden Hind. Historical accuracy should be next to impossible so I can just please myself 😉

 

Your workmanship, problem solving and results are all exemplary. Thank you for the time and effort you have put into not only the build, but also the work in progress thread - it is much appreciated!

 

Brian

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11 hours ago, Chewbacca said:

Those cannons look fabulous but if you don't mind me saying, aren't they a little large?  When they recoil to reload they look as if they'll hit the gratings

 

7 hours ago, Courageous said:

Now that you mention it, I tend to agree. Not just the recoil but the reloading...

 

Stuart

Thanks for the questions and the ensuing discussions everyone. Ark Royal seems to have bristled with heavy ordnance and these 18-pdrs are big cannon to have up on the main deck. Guns on the deck below were even heavier, but the 18-pdr is the longest of them all.

The question about the cannons was spotted quite early in the build (from bottom of page 1 and well into page 2) and, once again, there was some interesting/fascinating discussions and viewpoints. @mdesaxe had found references by Oppenheim that the carriages of Ark Royal were of the four wheel type with a length around 5 ft (at least for the cannon and demi-cannon). My carriages are made to this size at a scale of 1/144. The beam of the model was also checked to be correct within 2mm. I am sure gratings would have been placed in the deck, so it is a mystery as to how the cannons could have been handled in such a small space. Therefore I consider your observations entirely reasonable and they do drive you to conclude that the guns were lashed in position and loaded by crawling out over the barrels. The counter argument is that the English fleet were noted by the Spanish for their rapid rate of fire, so would this have been possible without being able to reload the cannon within the ship?

I did not mention that the illustration I used for the rammer, mop, worm, etc also showed a flexible mop and rammer. This is basically some heavy rope with the rammer at one end and mop at the other. I think it would be a good idea for me to add this as well, plus a bucket which is also shown in the illustration.

One of my reference books notes how small the carriages were when compared to the guns. Maybe the deck 18-pdr guns had a shorter or even 2-wheeled carriage which would permit easier movement around the gratings? Too late for this model now - the carriages are well glued down.

So for me it is one of many intriguing unknowns about Ark Royal that have cropped up as I've worked on the model and have joyfully toyed with my mind for months now - even thinking about it in my sleep!

The 64-pdr cannons on the deck below are actually too big to insert through the gun ports. I shall have to file some flats on the breech to get them in.

The model is going to look like something from Warhammer once it is "tooled-up". 

Once again, my enormous thanks to @Black Knight for your photos and both you and Maurice @mdesaxe for your historical perspective and contributions to making this project so interesting for me.

 

Pat

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4 minutes ago, patmaquette said:

look like something from Warhammer

:giggle:, I doubt that. In my book, working with such scant resources, it's amazing that you've produced such a beautiful ship and you haven't finished yet. I doff my hat...if I wore one.

 

Stuart

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5 hours ago, Black Knight said:

You're doing a grand job on those sails.

Please just be aware that that plastic goes brittle very quickly in sunlight.

Thank you - I'll heed your warning!

2 hours ago, Black Knight said:

Close up the tarred rope is a dark burnt umber colour. For modelling purposes a very dark brown or even black would look alright. For the running rigging a beige would look best I think.

I can match these colours in my leatherwork threads. They can be matched in the Gutermann sewing threads range

Many thanks for this, @Black Knight

I have done my first bit of running rigging on the top gallant sails today using the Magic Marker pen to colour some elastic thread. The result is a bit so-so (the markers are okay, its the thread which looks a bit odd). I've got some alternatives to try next, but will take a look at the Gutermann threads just in case.

Thanks again,

Pat

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42 minutes ago, bhouse said:

Can I just say that I'm finding this build completely enthralling and utterly inspiring.

 

Even though I didn't realise I had any interest in that era in general or ships in particular, I find myself following your research with a new-found thirst for knowledge. I've even bought an Airfix ship of my own. I chose the Golden Hind. Historical accuracy should be next to impossible so I can just please myself 😉

 

Your workmanship, problem solving and results are all exemplary. Thanks you the time and effort you have put into not only the build, but also the work in progress thread - it is much appreciated!

 

Brian

Brian - very many thanks for letting me know. I'm glad readers find something here of interest.

I do hope you enjoy making your Golden Hind kit. I have a great respect for the Airfix researchers and mould makers, but even so the kits can be challenging. Is it moulded in the same dark brown & brittle plastic as my Revenge kit?

 

Pat

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The usual routine for firing a 16th century cannon was

1. Master gunner places his leather encased thumb over the touch hole

2. The gun powder was ladled into the barrel

3. wadding was placed into the barrel and rammed home

4. canon ball placed into the barrel and rammed down

5. a ring of hemp rope was placed in the barrel and rammed home

6. the gun is run out to position

7. the Master Gunner, pours fine gun powder into the touch hole

8. the Master Gunner checks alignment on target

9. the Master Gunner adjusts elevation if necessary

10. the Master Gunner gives the warning 'Give Fire'

11 the gun crew turn away from the gun, covering their ears with cupped hands and opening their mouths (this prevents burst ear drums)

12 Master Gunner checks all his gun crew are turned away and out of the way of the gun for when it recoils

13. the Master Gunner 'Gives Fire' using his linstock, which is kept in a bucket a few feet away from the rear of the gun

14. two buckets of water are thrown over the gun barrel as we go back to 1

 

 

The English ship gunners of the Armada period right up to the Napoleonic war period did;

1

2 but open linen bags of powder were used at first, later sealed bags were used meaning 3 was not needed

4 but ball not rammed home*

7

10

11

13 (from about the 1760s a flintlock firing mechanism was also used)

This brought the time from a firing, reload and firing again to about half the time of keeping to the regulation movements

 

 * 4, did you ever see the 'Sharpe' series where he taught the soldiers to 'spit and tap' load? not to waste time ramming the musket ball down. just spit it in and tap the musket stock on the ground. Power is wasted but at close range that doesn't matter. Same principle on the ship cannons.

 for 6 the gun's recoil was shortened so it remained close to the run out position

 

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23 hours ago, Black Knight said:

It wasn't unknown for the crew serving the guns to climb outside the ship to swab and reload the guns.

There are true tales from the Napoleonic wars period of where the ships were so close that the gun crews actually stood upon the enemy ship as they reloaded

Something for you to ponder to get your minds away from the crisis.....

Following on from the above, does anyone have a view on the position of the gun port lids? When open, they are sometimes shown swung up fully to rest against the hull or a little above horizontal. Ropes run from the lid to the hull to keep it in place.

Would gunners use the lids as a platform to work from or prefer them swung up and out of the way?

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Pat

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On Tudor ships the gun port covers could be removed completely and stowed inside by the guns. On Mary Rose the lower gun port covers had been removed. Not being available to close off the ports may have have contributed to its very quick sinking. May have, or may not have.

afai have read, usually the gun port covers were raised to be up tight to the hull. Use as a platform works both ways but more in favour of your enemy. Very little use to you but your enemy can use them on a boarding attack, which you do not want to encourage

Ships would start off a close fight at about 400 yards and gradually close till they were 10 feet apart and the rigging intermixing, Usually a captain would try to have his enemy's rigging reduced to make him immobile. Prize money was good for a sound hull. Raking a ship was very effective. Once a ship was close up and the guns were no longer feasible the gunners boarded each others ships via the open gun ports and killed each other, sometimes aided by marines.

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12 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

On Tudor ships the gun port covers could be removed completely and stowed inside by the guns. On Mary Rose the lower gun port covers had been removed. Not being available to close off the ports may have have contributed to its very quick sinking. May have, or may not have.

afai have read, usually the gun port covers were raised to be up tight to the hull. Use as a platform works both ways but more in favour of your enemy. Very little use to you but your enemy can use them on a boarding attack, which you do not want to encourage

Ships would start off a close fight at about 400 yards and gradually close till they were 10 feet apart and the rigging intermixing, Usually a captain would try to have his enemy's rigging reduced to make him immobile. Prize money was good for a sound hull. Raking a ship was very effective. Once a ship was close up and the guns were no longer feasible the gunners boarded each others ships via the open gun ports and killed each other, sometimes aided by marines.

Thank you, @Black Knight. Leaving the gunport lids off will save me some trouble. 👍

Also, I have taken a look at a sketch by Willem van de Velde the elder of gun loading. In one case the loader is straddling the barrel and in others standing on something, quite possibly one of the wales rather than a gunport lid.

I would attach an image, but the sketch is considered art and there is a fee for it. The URL is a mile long so I won't paste it here. What a nuisance.

 

Thanks again,

Pat

 

 

 

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Although gun decks are not very high, about 5ft on the Mary Rose, and deck thickness is about 1ft you have about 6 feet minimum between gun centres (2.5ft from gun centre to deck + 1ft deck + 2.5ft deck to gun centre) less, say, 1ft for the open port cover above the gun = 5 ft.

Contrary to common belief, the Tudor man was not a midget, average height of a man from the Mary Rose was 5ft 10.25 inches, only 0.25 inches shorter than the average modern Englishman

But try working at head or shoulder height, its very difficult, more especially on a moving platform.

Plus of course the guns are off-set by a few feet, just look at your hull. All this would make serving a gun off an open gun port cover a very difficult job indeed

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7 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

All this would make serving a gun off an open gun port cover a very difficult job indeed

Would it also be difficult for working on the gun coming out of the port underneath the cover (in other words the cover for the very same port)?

I imagine the answer once again is yes, still difficult. I certainly wouldn't be up to it!!

 

Pat

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22 hours ago, patmaquette said:

Is it moulded in the same dark brown & brittle plastic as my Revenge kit?

It arrived today 😃. It's one of the recently re-released ones and the plastic is Caramac coloured - much lighter than yours.

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It looks as if the gates on the runners are built to last - I think I may need to break out my mains-powered jigsaw!

 

I'm not at home at the moment so I need to wait until some modelling essentials arrive at my quarantine villa before I can get going. I'll start a new WIP thread for it when the time comes.

 

Brian

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Hi folks,

I am adding some of the running rigging to the sails before attaching the yards to the masts. Some rigging is embossed on the sails and so I have overlaid these with brown 0.2mm fishing line.....

 

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Work started by putting some dots of Micro Industries Liquitape onto the sails where the rigging terminates.....

 

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This particular rigging is for the martnets that were for gathering up the sail. In those days the yard was lowered to furl the sail, rather than having crew aloft on yard footropes hauling the sail up. Martnets were in use up to 1650 and there was an earlier and later arrangement. The design embossed on the sail has a series of bridles connecting to a hauling rope via a single block and this seems correct for the period. A later arrangement had the bridles connecting to a number of blocks and this is depicted on the Airfix box art. The martnets are on each side of the sail and front and back.

The fishing line was cut to length for four bridles at a time: two on one side and two on the other. The ends were poked into the tacky Liquitape to hold it into position. The line was set roughly in the right direction but no Liquitape was used to hold that other end....

 

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The line was fixed in place using acrylic varnish applied by a Microbrush....

 

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It was possible to coax the line to follow the curve of embossed lines. I let these dry before continuing to the next set of four. Once all was done, the hauling part of the line was added in the same way but using a slightly heavier weight of fishing line.

Here is a view of the front of the sail (the blocks have yet to be added)....

 

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You can also see two lines running down the sail and these are buntlines, again associated with furling of the sail. Their bottom ends have yet to be attached to the sail. That completes the front of the sail but some further additions are needed to the rear. 

 

The top gallant sails are complete. Here is a view of the front and again you can see a pair of buntlines running down the middle. However, the sides of the sail have leechlines to gather in the sides of the sail during furling, rather than martnets...

 

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Clew lines have been added to the rear of the top gallant sails. These gather up the corners of the sail for furling and on my model are elastic thread coloured using a Magic Marker.....

 

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many thanks for reading and your interest,

Pat

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Notwithstanding my earlier comment about vac-formed sails looking unrealistic, I think you have just proven that wrong.  Just a small transformation but highly effective

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On 03/04/2020 at 21:46, Courageous said:

Good sail and line work.

Just as well you weren't thinking of having your gun port lids shut with those big guns and carriages...:whistle:

 

Stuart

 

On 03/04/2020 at 15:51, Chewbacca said:

Notwithstanding my earlier comment about vac-formed sails looking unrealistic, I think you have just proven that wrong.  Just a small transformation but highly effective

 

On 02/04/2020 at 21:14, Black Knight said:

That is some real good detail work on your sails.

I must remember your technique for when I do some of my sail warships

Many thanks guys for your kind comments and to others who read the post and thought it worthy of a "like".

@Black Knight, I had problems with the AK acrylic varnish for "gluing" the thread to the sails. It was too thin (great for airbrushing without diluting, but not for doing this task). I used Vallejo matt varnish instead. I'll edit the post to show what I actually used.

 

Here are the completed sails...

Fore sails, front and back:

 

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Main sails.....

 

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Many thanks for looking,

Cheers,

Pat

 

 

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Hi all and thank you for your kind comments and "likes".

 

I have come across a problem with doing the shrouds. If you have any thoughts about how best to overcome it I would love to hear them.

 

Things started well enough. The somewhat wrinkled sheet of shrouds + rat lines was laid over a cutting mat for ironing flat. Double sided tape was laid around the periphery first and the ends of the shrouds & ratlines coaxed onto it until the lines were aligned straight and taught. It was somewhat like herding cats at first as each line wanted to spring in different directions, but eventually all were wrestled into place. Some low tack tape was then put over the top to help keep the lines held firm and to cover the sticky double sided tape for the next step which was to lay a handkerchief over it and give it an ironing.

I gave a huge sigh of relief when I found the sheet had ironed flat and had not melted.

 

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Some rat lines had detached from the shrouds and were glued back into place with liquid plastic adhesive. Some punches made handy weights to keep the line in place. Some pieces of the backing double sided tape backing paper were placed beneath the joints to stop the plastic gluing itself to the cutting mat.

 

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The top mast shrouds were added first. These little aluminium hair clips are really useful clamps to hold parts for gluing. The tips can be bent to shape to suit the task.

 

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Despite having ironed the shrouds flat, I was less than happy with the final result which had twists and the shrouds themselves were wider apart than the deadeyes to which they attach. Having thought of one or two ways to improve my method, I moved onto doing the fore mast lower shrouds, and the problems here are much worse.

The first problem is that the shrouds are much, much wider apart than the deadeyes. To illustrate this, I marked the position of the six shrouds onto some clear plastic sheet and positioned it against the model so the two middle shrouds line up with their corresponding dead eyes. Hopefully you can see in the photo that the first and last pair are much further out than their corresponding dead eyes (especially the first shroud).

 

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A possible solution would be to re-position the dead eyes, but there is a second problem in that the rat lines are not horizontal, but dip downwards in the forward direction. If I set the rat lines level then the forward shrouds come a long way in front of the chainwale. I could extend the chainwale but it would not look right.

Here you can see that I have aligned the ratline marked on the clear plastic with a horizontal line marked on some sheet plastic..... 

 

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So your ideas on how best to proceed would be most welcome. My initial thoughts are to make new shroud sets using 0.3 mm wire as I think they would look the neatest. Maybe solder the joints in some key places but use superglue for the most part. The rat lines could be wire or fishing line. I am not aware of any photoetched after market option.

 

Many thanks for reading and your interest,

Pat

Edited by patmaquette
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