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RAGATIGER

RAF Phantom FGR.2 in Falklands War

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Hi there

 

Well I found that

 

So RAF Phantoms FGR.2 were deployed in August 1982 initially (XV484/C, XV466/E, XV468/W). But when Faith Hope and Charity arrived So, if during March -July 1983 more FGR2's were sent to the island, RAF Stanley from Nov 82 to Apr 83 and that info is correct. Ten Phantoms FGR.2s were deployed with XV468 damaged in a landing incident and was beyond repair in theater - they had all arrived by end of Sep 82. Those three were most likely the first to arrive. In time the aircraft were rotated and of course dropped to four aircraft when it changed to 1435 Flight.

Full list from Mar - Jul 1983: XV426(Q), XV464 (U), XV474 (P), XV484 (C),  XV423(D), XV402 (A), XV495 (N), XV466 (E), XV419 (G) and the wreck of XV468.

 

The key to this all is that the RAF didn't decide to buy 15 Phantom F-4J's from superplus at David Montan AFB (some were blue and some were grey, as the squadron song went, but that's another story) to replace 3 FGR.2s. The deployment of FGR.2 from 29 Sqn was followed by a full squadron deployment (eventually as 23 Sqn), which left a hole in the UK Air Defence Region and commitments to NATO. As such, the J's were purchased.

 

So when the Malta Cross was used? So when the tail was painted white? Until when was taken from Sqn 23?, when the Sqn 29 take over? 

So air defense scheme was designed for air superiority, then please confirm the mos accurate color paint???

About the RAF Phantoms FGR.2 do they used stencils? If so please to indicate also the color of the stencils? 

 

So please help me to figurate a bit

 

Cheers 

Armando

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4 hours ago, RAGATIGER said:

Hi there

 

Well I found that

 

So RAF Phantoms FGR.2 were deployed in August 1982 initially (XV484/C, XV466/E, XV468/W). But when Faith Hope and Charity arrived So, if during March -July 1983 more FGR2's were sent to the island, RAF Stanley from Nov 82 to Apr 83 and that info is correct. Ten Phantoms FGR.2s were deployed with XV468 damaged in a landing incident and was beyond repair in theater - they had all arrived by end of Sep 82. Those three were most likely the first to arrive. In time the aircraft were rotated and of course dropped to four aircraft when it changed to 1435 Flight.

Full list from Mar - Jul 1983: XV426(Q), XV464 (U), XV474 (P), XV484 (C),  XV423(D), XV402 (A), XV495 (N), XV466 (E), XV419 (G) and the wreck of XV468.

 

The key to this all is that the RAF didn't decide to buy 15 Phantom F-4J's from superplus at David Montan AFB (some were blue and some were grey, as the squadron song went, but that's another story) to replace 3 FGR.2s. The deployment of FGR.2 from 29 Sqn was followed by a full squadron deployment (eventually as 23 Sqn), which left a hole in the UK Air Defence Region and commitments to NATO. As such, the J's were purchased.

 

So when the Malta Cross was used? So when the tail was painted white? Until when was taken from Sqn 23?, when the Sqn 29 take over? 

So air defense scheme was designed for air superiority, then please confirm the mos accurate color paint???

About the RAF Phantoms FGR.2 do they used stencils? If so please to indicate also the color of the stencils? 

 

So please help me to figurate a bit

 

Cheers 

Armando

The Maltese cross was the emblem of 1435 flight and was applied when that unit was stood up in the Falklands.

 

Selwyn

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Posted (edited)

XV468 was not damaged beyond repair, it returned to the UK and ended it's days with 56 Sqn at Wattisham.

 

Quote

So air defense scheme was designed for air superiority, then please confirm the mos accurate color paint???

'Official' air defence colours (actually called 'Barley Grey') are-

B.S. 381C-626 'Barley Grey', upper fuselage, upper stabilator outer surfaces, tail fin, outer wing panel upper surfaces

B.S. 381C-637 'Medium Sea Grey', upper surfaces of the inner wings

B.S. 381C-627 'Light Aircraft Grey' all lower surfaces

The radome colour is best mixed until you're happy with the shade you have

 

Quote

About the RAF Phantoms FGR.2 do they used stencils? If so please to indicate also the color of the stencils?

Stencils are white on Barley Grey F-4s, black on the Grey/Green camo'd ones

 

-Daz

Edited by Dazza

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Maybe I'm being pedantic but Phantoms weren't used in the Falklands war....after yes ..sorry

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1 minute ago, junglierating said:

Maybe I'm being pedantic but Phantoms weren't used in the Falklands war....after yes ..sorry

No you are quite correct and not pedantic, although there is a Phantom section in "Falklands the Air War" book.

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To add to any pedantry going the rounds I do recall that while not exactly in the "combat zone", which is what Armando may be after, Phantoms from 29(F) Squadron Phantom FGR.2’s were at Ascenion Island for air defence duties in the perhaps unlikely event that island was attacked to disrupt logistics from 24th of May 1982.  So technically in the war but not involved in combat.

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The key to this all is that the RAF didn't decide to buy 15 Phantom F-4J's from superplus at David Montan AFB (some were blue and some were grey, as the squadron song went, but that's another story) to replace 3 FGR.2s.

 

You see, the key to this is the WHIF that should have been around a lot more.  Rumour has it that the MoD were offered early F-15A's that were in Davis Montham as an alternative to F-4J's.  The alleged Official refusal was down to the fact the RAF already operated Phantoms (albeit with a lot of differences between the models).  The alleged real reason to turn down the alleged offer was at the time the RAF Phantoms were pencilled in to be replaced by the Tornado F2/F3 in the long term, and the fear was once the RAF got their hands on the F-15, it was that much of a better aircraft than the Tornado Fighter, attempts would be made to terminate the Tornado Fighter before it reached Front Line Service.  

 

Now, that might all be rubbish, but it does open the prospect of RAF Tiger F-15's 

 

 

 

 

To add to the pedantry, it is a Phantom we are talking about, it can be what it wants, where it wants, when it wants !!!!!

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Also according to the book I mentioned earlier of the 13 aircraft that 29(F) Sqn had on strength at the time 4 of these were still in the Dk Green/Dk Sea Grey scheme, these being XV489/A, XV421/B, XV473/L and XV468/W. Of these XV473/L and XV468/W were resprayed at RAF St Athan in the 3 Grey colour scheme during the course of Op Corporate returning to 29(F) Sqn and taking up the same codes..

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1 hour ago, JohnT said:

To add to any pedantry going the rounds I do recall that while not exactly in the "combat zone", which is what Armando may be after, Phantoms from 29(F) Squadron Phantom FGR.2’s were at Ascenion Island for air defence duties in the perhaps unlikely event that island was attacked to disrupt logistics from 24th of May 1982.  So technically in the war but not involved in combat.

Maybe a way of “qualifying” the Phantom contribution to Operation Corporate (the code name for HM Forces recapture of the Falkland Islands or the Falkland Islands war) would be to consider if those involved at Ascension Island were awarded the South Atlantic medal without the rosette. 

Whatever the pedantry the service personnel deployed all made a contribution to a magnificent result. 

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There were over 30.000 South Atlantic medals awarded/distributed, basically everyone then.

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Not really. When HM Forces of the the time were a great deal larger than they are today perhaps 30,000 doesn’t sound so much. 

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5 hours ago, Dazza said:

XV468 was not damaged beyond repair, it returned to the UK and ended it's days with 56 Sqn at Wattisham.

 

'Official' air defence colours (actually called 'Barley Grey') are-

B.S. 381C-626 'Barley Grey', upper fuselage, upper stabilator outer surfaces, tail fin, outer wing panel upper surfaces

B.S. 381C-637 'Medium Sea Grey', upper surfaces of the inner wings

B.S. 381C-627 'Light Aircraft Grey' all lower surfaces

The radome colour is best mixed until you're happy with the shade you have

 

Stencils are white on Barley Grey F-4s, black on the Grey/Green camo'd ones

 

-Daz

Barley grey is incorrectly used and abused  many a time, and was never an official colour, it was the name used originally when the colour was being developed. BS 381c 626 is called Camouflage Grey. (My source is my copy of BS381c!)

 

Selwyn

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5 hours ago, junglierating said:

Maybe I'm being pedantic but Phantoms weren't used in the Falklands war....after yes ..sorry

Yes they were! the provided air defence for Wideawake airfield on Ascension.

 

Selwyn

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Posted (edited)

My understanding of timeline is,

 

24 May 1982, 29 Sqn arrived Ascension, air defence, departed back to UK 18 July

17 October 1982 29 Sqn arrived Stanley, air defence

1 Nov 1983, 23 Sqn arrived Stanley, replacing 29 Sqn

1 Nov 1988, 1435 Flt reformed at Stanley and replaced 23 Sqn

 

As mentioned 1435 had the Maltese Cross tail markings, but I thought that only one aircraft (XV466) got the white tail.

 

My time for pedancy, even if Barley grey wasn't an official colour, it certainly is a recognised colour and term

Edited by 71chally

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6 hours ago, JohnT said:

To add to any pedantry going the rounds I do recall that while not exactly in the "combat zone", which is what Armando may be after, Phantoms from 29(F) Squadron Phantom FGR.2’s were at Ascension Island for air defense duties in the perhaps unlikely event that island was attacked to disrupt logistics from 24th of May 1982.  So technically in the war but not involved in combat.

As Gentleman as noble as always John, deeply appreciated your comment

Regards

Armando

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, 71chally said:

My understanding of timeline is,

 

24 May 1982, 29 Sqn arrived Ascension, air defense, departed back to UK 18 July

17 October 1982 29 Sqn arrived Stanley, air defense

1 Nov 1983, 23 Sqn arrived Stanley, replacing 29 Sqn

1 Nov 1988, 1435 Flt reformed at Stanley and replaced 23 Sqn

 

I was at RAF Stanley from Nov 82 to Apr 83 and I can personally confirm that info is correct. Ten FGR2s were deployed with XV468 damaged in a landing incident and was beyond repair in theatre - they had all arrived by end of Sep 82. Those three were most likely the first to arrive. In time the aircraft were rotated and of course dropped to four aircraft when it changed to 1435 Flight.

Geoff

 

As mentioned 1435 had the Maltese Cross tail markings, but I thought that only one aircraft (XV466) got the white tail.

 

My time for pedancy, even if Barley grey wasn't an official colour, it certainly is a recognized colour and term

Hi there

As I understand this

 

Please notice this, most of my information came from web sources as I don't have the book you mention, maybe here the most important link

 

https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/operation-black-buck/post-conflict-and-raf-stanley/

 

24 May 1982, 29 Sqn arrived Ascension, first three FGR2's: XV466, XV468 and XV484 for air defense, departed back to UK 18 July  6 Phantoms I found a photo with full normal 29 Sqn markings but Do they got Falklands badge??

 

Once the Port Stanley runway was available for jets, HMS Illustrious was relieved by four RAF F-4 Phantom FGR.2 (named ‘Faith’, ‘Hope’, Charity’ and ‘Desperation’ by the crews – the first three named after the three Gloster Gladiators that according to legend were the names of the three RAF fighters defending Malta in the Second World War).

 

17 October 1982 29 Sqn arrived Stanley, air defense 4 more Phantoms Do they got Falklands badge?? 

1 Nov 1983, 23 Sqn arrived Stanley, replacing 29 Sqn Do they rotate the Phantoms or replace them??? So they have  the red hawk or eagle at the tail?? Do they got Falklands badge??

 

Mount Pleasant, to the west of Stanley, was chosen as the site for the new station. The construction, which had extraordinary challenges to get materials on site, was undertaken by a Laing-Mowlem-ARC consortium. The airfield was opened by Prince Andrew (who served in the Falklands War) on 12th May 1985, and became fully operational in 1986.

 

1 Nov 1988, 1435 Flt reformed at Stanley and replaced 23 Sqn At that time appear the Maltese Cross and Falklands badge So Charity Peace Hope and Desperation Phantom (is this the one included on new Airfix Phantom FGR.2 kit?)

 

Flights of Phantoms were rotated through the airfield until 1992 when they were replaced with Tornado F3s. The Tornado was replaced by the Eurofighter Typhoon in September 2009. These have been supported throughout by C-130s and, since 1996, VC10s, equipped for aerial refuelling, transport, search and rescue and maritime patrol.

 

Phantom F-4 Gate Guard at MPA Serial is XV409 [H]

 

Currently located at Mount Pleasant are No. 905 Expeditionary Air Wing, No. 1435 Flight with four Eurofighter Typhoons, No. 1312 Flight, with a single Voyager tanker/transport and one Hercules. There are also two Sikorsky S-61 civilian Helicopters run by British International Helicopters Limited (Brintel). Ground units include No 7, 303, and 751 Signals Units and a Rapier detachment from the Royal Artillery. This was previously handled by the RAF Regiment but the RA now have sole responsibility for operating the Rapier.

 

33 Engineer Regiment (EOD) provides constant support and is part of the Joint Service Falkland Islands Detachment which consists of RAF and RLC EOD teams. It is mainly located in Stanley but there is also a detachment at Mount Pleasant. The group’s role is to destroy unexploded munitions from the Falklands War; to brief troops, tourists and citizens on which areas are safe; and to mark uncleared minefields.

 

Best regards you all

 

Armando

 

PS I'm just a lonely guy at a Banana Republic who always pointed as the guy who paint little airplanes and there is not a single aviation enthusiast library who also had to wait at least 2 months for everything model related (with the exception from UK cheaper and only 4-6 weeks as waiting time)

Edited by RAGATIGER
forgot to mention the scale of the models

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Jabba said:

Also according to the book I mentioned earlier of the 13 aircraft that 29(F) Sqn had on strength at the time 4 of these were still in the Dk Green/Dk Sea Grey scheme, these being XV489/A, XV421/B, XV473/L and XV468/W. Of these XV473/L and XV468/W were resprayed at RAF St Athan in the 3 Grey colour scheme during the course of Op Corporate returning to 29(F) Sqn and taking up the same codes..

So then the other 2 Phantom FGR.2 still in the Dk Green/Dk Sea Grey scheme XV489/A, XV421/B, then dd they go down south in that scheme???/

 

Phantom XV401 had a trip South too, but when???

 

 

Really interesting

 

Cheers

 

Armando

Edited by RAGATIGER

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16 hours ago, Selwyn said:

Yes they were! the provided air defence for Wideawake airfield on Ascension.

 

Selwyn

So only 4,000 miles away from any shooting, then.  Sorry, but that is not involvement in the war.  

 

If it is, I should be putting in for a Gulf War medal, even though I didn’t get beyond the Eastern Mediterranean.

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Ooh theres gonna be trouble🥊🥊dontcha just love inter service rivalry 🤔😂😂😂🍺🍺🍺🍺🍺🍿🍿🍿🍿I was just saying fellas...speaking of which 801 got a GW1 gong without rosette for floating around as Cyprus guardship...whilst yours truly was with 848 and SHF. You've dipped out FAAWAFU🤦‍♂️

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1 hour ago, junglierating said:

Ooh theres gonna be trouble🥊🥊dontcha just love inter service rivalry 🤔😂😂😂🍺🍺🍺🍺🍺🍿🍿🍿🍿I was just saying fellas...speaking of which 801 got a GW1 gong without rosette for floating around as Cyprus guardship...whilst yours truly was with 848 and SHF. You've dipped out FAAWAFU🤦‍♂️

So did 19/92 Sqns when they were based on Cyprus to defend that island from attack.

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Yet again this information is taken from "Falklands the Air War".

 

When the runway was made ready for the operation of Phantoms, the following 9 aircraft were prepared to deploy to RAF Stanley. They are as follows:- XV402/A, XV484/C, VX423/D, VX466/E, XV419/G, XV474/P, XV423/Q, XV464/U and XV468/W. Some of these aircraft were recent acquisitions by the Sqn, all being painted in the 3 Grey scheme with most of the unit insignia removed apart from the Red code on the nosewheel door. The Phantoms began to congregate on Ascension Island in Mid-September to await the reopening of the runway at RAF Stanley these being XV484/C, XV423/D, XV419/G and XV474/P having arrived at Wideawake by 18 Sept.17 Oct saw 29(F) Sqn take over responsibility for air defence of the Falkland Islands from the Sea Harriers of 809 Sqn with the arrival on that day of XV468/W. The remaining 8 aircraft completed the transit from Wideawake during the following week. The unit's tour in the South Atlantic was completed at the end of 1983 when 23 Sqn from Wattisham took over responsibility for the same aircraft on a permanent basis, with 29(F) Sqn gaining new Phantoms during Jan 84 to enable operations from Coningsby to recommence. 

 

Hope that this is of some help.

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5 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

So only 4,000 miles away from any shooting, then.  Sorry, but that is not involvement in the war.  

 

If it is, I should be putting in for a Gulf War medal, even though I didn’t get beyond the Eastern Mediterranean.

 Sorry mate but I have to disagree.

 

I believe   as the only viable supply staging point  between the UK and the Falklands, Ascension was a vulnerable  point  and  critical to the success of the campaign.  Argentinian Recce  aircraft (707?)  are known to have tracked the  task force  from Ascension to the Falklands  So  the Argentine air effort  however minimal reached out that far, so it was probably prudent to  deploy  some air defence of the island.

And of course in this  you are saying the  Victor tankers  supporting  Vulcan air strikes originating from Ascension's Wideawake airfield didn't count as participation in the "Shooting" war? Even though it was 4000 miles away.

 

Selwyn

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On 7/2/2019 at 2:17 PM, JohnT said:

Phantoms from 29(F) Squadron Phantom FGR.2’s were at Ascenion Island for air defence duties in the perhaps unlikely event that island was attacked to disrupt logistics from 24th of May 1982. 

Wow, John; that's quite interesting! A fact which I had ne'er actually caught up with.

Cheers,

 

Unc2

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At the time of No.1435 Flight's reforming on 1 November 1988 the four jets in use were XV419/A, XV433/B, XV438/C and XV497/D. All were painted with the Maltese Cross on the tail and the Coat of Arms of the Falkland Islands on the forward fuselage. These Phantoms were relieved in late February 1990 by replacements in the shape of XV421/F, XV461/C, XV466/D and XV442/H, and these aircraft were the first to be given the names Faith, Hope, Charity and Desperation, corresponding to their code letters. No.1435 Flight had of course formed part of the defence of Malta during the Second World War, at one point being raised to Squadron status, and the Maltese Cross and the names were applied as a reminder of the unit's heritage.

 

Following the loss of two Phantoms in a collision on 30 October 1991 (XV421 crashing into the sea with the loss of its crew and XV442 returning to base but being written off) XV409/H and XV472/F were deployed to replace them, taking up the names. With the introduction of the Tornado F.3 the Phantoms were withdrawn by September 1992. XV409 was preserved on site and the remaining aircraft were scrapped and the remains buried near Mount Pleasant.

 

XV421 was painted with a white tail at some point before its loss, and XV461 was painted similarly after the accident. It retained the white tail until its withdrawal.

 

All information from British Phantoms: The Phantom FG Mk.1, FGR Mk.2 and F-4J(UK) in Royal Air Force Service 1979-1992 (The Ultimate F-4 Phantom II Collection Volume 5), by Patrick Martin (Double Ugly 2013)

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