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Focke-Wolf 190A-2 Colour scheme.


Roger Newsome

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Following some more online research I found this, again by Tom Cleaver. In this piece he quotes Jerry Crandall and provides a bit more information than the "....this is incorrect" statement which wasn't very helpful and prompted my query in the first place.

https://modelingmadness.com/review/axis/cleaver/g/tmc190a1.htm

 

The important bit,

 

 "While many (including myself) have thought that all Fw-190As were in 74/75/76, "Mr. Focke-Wulf", Jerry Crandall, informs me he has parts of an Fw-190A-2 that are clearly in 71/02 upper colors.  According to Jerry, the early aircraft could have been delivered in either 71/02/65 or 74/75/76.  He points out that Arnim Faber's Fw-190A-3 was confirmed by the RAF in the earlier camouflage colors.  The color photo of an Fw-190A-1(clearly identifiably by the lack of the inboard cannon bulge on the upper wing) that appears on the cover of “Luftwaffe Colors, 1940-43" shows that it is in 74/75/76, though Jerry points out that the inboard wing color is likely 71 Dunkelgrun.  While I gave my model a standard 74/75/76 camouflage scheme, it could have been in the colors suggested in the painting instructions." 

 

However, the "this is incorrect" statement was dated Feb. 2019 and the "early aircraft could have been delivered in either 71/02/65 or 74/75/76." June 2010.

 

 

I forgot to say earlier, thank you @Jerry Crandall for joining in the discussion. 

 

Edited by Roger Newsome
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What is really surprising to me is the fact that (3rd photo in post #6) the Balkenkreuz on the wings is located in different positions and different angles on each of those three Fws.

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27 minutes ago, PZL104 said:

What is really surprising to me is the fact that (3rd photo in post #6) the Balkenkreuz on the wings is located in different positions and different angles on each of those three Fws.

Oh no, not something else for me to worry about. 😁

Well observed though, it's a photo to save and produce for when that "expert" says your Balkenkreuz are in the incorrect position. 🤣

Roger.

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Indeed, a photo is always a comfort factor when you are displaying a model of an anomalous full size subject. And it's one of the areas where common parlance tends to let us down.

 

It's remarkably common for individual full size aircraft to be painted and decorated in some way which is non-conformant with an official standard, from the dawn of aviation to present-day. Civilian and military alike. Same goes for trains, buses, heavy goods vehicles and anything else that has nominal fleet standards.  Having for one period of time having run a department which was nominally responsible for issuing fleet livery standards to individual operating units, I have the stripes on my back for all the ingenious ways people in the ops units found to get it wrong when they were doing the actual work on their shiny new, or transferred/refurbed fleets.

 

Yes, your Balkenkreuz is in the wrong position, and should do because the original aircraft had it in the wrong position, and the word "wrong" therefore loops into meaninglessness. "An accurate model of a non-conformant airframe" is perhaps one way to maintain all the necessary distinctions for comprehension of what's actually been done.

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 The piece I mentioned was given to me by a member of a recovery team in Germany. It is from a crash site but the colors have remained in good condition, especially the dark green as it still has a slight sheen to it. The black Adlerflugel is still black as is the interior RLM 66. The colors are all original. In some cases the recovered parts' colors aren't reliable, if they exist at all, depending on soil and other factors  However, some colors survive in remarkable condition.

     Cheers, Jerry

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13 hours ago, Vonbraun said:

No, not on the basis of a piece of wreckage, but on the opinion of Jerry Crandall.  This in combination with the RAF intelligence report, the color photographic record and evidence of distinguishing dense fuselage mottling on early aircraft.   If you have evidence support a contrary view I would be happy to hear it.

 

Incidentally that 78 year old piece of wreckage that your are referring to is the very thing in question.  It is in the possession one of the most prominent researchers and authors on the subject at hand.  

 

 

Yes i'm well aware who Jerry Crandall is.  But as I say you're basing things now on one piece of wreckage. Crash reports are vague at best so so can be discounted when talking about exact colours.

With that, i'm going to stick to my personal mantra which is "never argue with drunks and fools"! 😝

 

1 hour ago, Jerry Crandall said:

 The piece I mentioned was given to me by a member of a recovery team in Germany. It is from a crash site but the colors have remained in good condition, especially the dark green as it still has a slight sheen to it. The black Adlerflugel is still black as is the interior RLM 66. The colors are all original. In some cases the recovered parts' colors aren't reliable, if they exist at all, depending on soil and other factors  However, some colors survive in remarkable condition.

     Cheers, Jerry

I'm sure you've got a photo of the said part for us  all to have a look at.

A picture is worth a 1000 words!

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33 minutes ago, tank152 said:

Yes i'm well aware who Jerry Crandall is.  But as I say you're basing things now on one piece of wreckage. Crash reports are vague at best so so can be discounted when talking about exact colours.

With that, i'm going to stick to my personal mantra which is "never argue with drunks and fools"! 😝

"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.” Mark Twain

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I believe, for me anyways, things have come full circle, and either colour scheme is possible for these early Focke-Wulf's - it just really depends when it left the factory, plus whatever else the squadron ground crews did to them afterwards,  along with a few other reasons.

 

Things could be more accurate had the dates been zeroed in more from the production tables found at the Hobbyvista link.  They only provide the years,  and combining this with the document L.Dv.521/1 that is only associated with the month of November '41 (actual day???),  it leaves a lot of leeway.  Also not mentioned, what was the procedure followed at the factories - did they use up their existing stock of 70/02/65 before switching over to the new paint?  It could be some did and others did not.  It is mentioned the 70 and 65 were still assigned to other aircraft types, and wasn't 02 originally a primer colour, and perhaps was still being used as such?

 

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It's good to have the input of someone who has researched the subject first hand.  I too would like to see a photo of that piece that Jerry has acquired - not that I doubt what he has stated, just that it would be cool to see.  Bare in mind though,  as that section of the aircraft is usually repainted by ground crew, and doesn't necessarily always reflect the overall aircraft colours.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------

 

The A-3 that fell into the laps of the RAF at Pembrey in June 1942 is often quoted to support the earlier scheme.   Not sure what's going on here, but apparently the six page report was printed the following year in the British technical magazine Aircraft Engineering, and it describes this aircraft differently, attributing it the 74/75/76 scheme.   See Jerry's post in  the link below:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/hyperscale/first-fw-190a3-captured-by-the-raf-t172317.html

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by JackG
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Hi Roger

Been busy painting King Tiger tracks but I had a look through my library for some reference material on early FWs.  In Luftwaffe Colours "Holding the West" the early FW 190 A-1s are described as being camouflaged in 65/02/71 and from the photos I agree, along with some of the first A-2s.  However, when I saw the name Jerry Crandall, I was about to ask, not THE Jerry Crandall?  So here is the photo I was posting with a Tamiya A-3 built a long time ago in 74/75/76, good job I did not get around to painting my new Eduard one in the same (wrong) colours! I'll go back to my tanks now. :unsure:  shuffle, shuffle.

 

IMG_0911

 

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Here is a snap of the piece in question. Notice how the dark green is lightly fogged over the lower portion and is increased in intensity where it is about 100% dark green. On the left can be seen a piece of the interior folded back with RLM 66. One thing I've learned over many, many years of chasing this subject is the aircraft, either leaving the factory or in the field were not necessarily painted in what the RLM specified. Many pilots and commanders complained that they could not keep up or comply with some of the RLM directives.

Cheers,

Jerry

https://imgur.com/eSQMkS2

Edited by Jerry Crandall
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35 minutes ago, Jerry Crandall said:

Here is a snap of the piece in question. Notice how the dark green is lightly fogged over the lower portion and is increased in intensity where it is about 100% dark green. On the left can be seen a piece of the interior folded back with RLM 66. One thing I've learned over many, many years of chasing this subject is the aircraft, either leaving the factory or in the field were not necessarily painted in what the RLM specified. Many pilots and commanders complained that they could not keep up or comply with some of the RLM directives.

Cheers,

Jerry

https://imgur.com/eSQMkS2

eSQMkS2.jpg

 

right click image, 'copy image location' paste that in

 

Thanks for uploading, @Jerry Crandall much appreciated

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On 6/30/2019 at 11:09 PM, Vonbraun said:

Here is a color shot of an Fw 190 A-2.  The machine had been assigned originally to  the third Gruppe CO, Pips Priller.  Priller's personal marking, the Ace of Hearts has been altered to the Seven of Hearts, and the III Gruppe CO symbol has been somewhat crudely painted out of the chevron.  71/02/65 or 74/75/76?

 

 

 

 

Another shot, possibly taken contemporaneously with that above, of Priller and Kurt Tank.  Wing looks like 71/02, or poorly rendered 74/75.  Again my personal view is 71/02 is the best explanation. 

 

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It looks like 75/74. These are my paints made from Jurgen Kiroff color chips:

 

S6GqUp3.jpg

vy92kme.jpg

2sqsp8x.jpg

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While on the subject of FW 190s, I have the EagleCals books and decals for the JV 44 Papageienstaffel and the tantalising theories behind the missing D-11 red 2.  On Ebay I found these decals from the German retailer Peddinghaus-decals.   The Eduard JV 44 dual combo kit includes the red 2 number and refers to Jerry Crandalls Dora Volume 2 for any further information (I have both Volumes 1 & 2)  My question is: has some fresh information surfaced or have Peddinghaus just followed the style of the known aircraft and guessed?

IMG_0912

The slogan for this Red 2 is in white gothic, in the rectangle underneath the 2s. It reads "hiein mit sact und flote"  Any ideas?

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7 hours ago, Retired Bob said:

While on the subject of FW 190s, I have the EagleCals books and decals for the JV 44 Papageienstaffel and the tantalising theories behind the missing D-11 red 2.  On Ebay I found these decals from the German retailer Peddinghaus-decals.   The Eduard JV 44 dual combo kit includes the red 2 number and refers to Jerry Crandalls Dora Volume 2 for any further information (I have both Volumes 1 & 2)  My question is: has some fresh information surfaced or have Peddinghaus just followed the style of the known aircraft and guessed?

 

The slogan for this Red 2 is in white gothic, in the rectangle underneath the 2s. It reads "hiein mit sact und flote"  Any ideas?

 

I suggest this is worth starting a new thread for this,  but if you @Jerry Crandall this will send him a notification, and  hopefully he'll be able to add some information.

 

HTH

 

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8 hours ago, Roger Newsome said:

I must say it's a very good effort by the Bedale contingent in opening a can of worms and ensuring the lid stays off. 🤣🤣🤣

speaking as I am from the Eastern Front i.e. Northallerton, it's probably a good thing that I have practically no clue about Luftwaffe colours. When I get round to some of these 190s and 109s in stock I'm just to to ask you what you would do...

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12 minutes ago, Work In Progress said:

speaking as I am from the Eastern Front i.e. Northallerton, it's probably a good thing that I have practically no clue about Luftwaffe colours. When I get round to some of these 190s and 109s in stock I'm just to to ask you what you would do...

I don't even know what I'm going to do. :D

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3 hours ago, Roger Newsome said:

I don't even know what I'm going to do. :D

I suppose you can

(1.)  Follow the colour scheme from the plans and blame Eduard if they are proven wrong.

(2.)  Paint it how the heck you fancy and get anyone that states it's wrong to prove it. (when I say heck I don't mean with sausages.) :whistle:

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4 hours ago, Jerry Crandall said:

No new photos have turned up that I know of, that show the slogan on D-11 "Red 2". I guess someone should ask the decal maker what the source is for the slogan on their sheet.

 

Thanks for the reply, there are no references on the decal instructions.  I just wondered if something had turned up in Luftwaffe im Focus or similar and I had not seen it,  If I find anything out I will post it along with a picture of my model.

Regards

Bob.

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5 hours ago, Retired Bob said:

I suppose you can

(1.)  Follow the colour scheme from the plans and blame Eduard if they are proven wrong.

(2.)  Paint it how the heck you fancy and get anyone that states it's wrong to prove it. (when I say heck I don't mean with sausages.) :whistle:

Those are exactly my own thoughts Bob. Option 1 is looking the most favourable at the moment, mainly due to the fact that although there's a possibility they're wrong there's plenty of illustrations of that scheme for me to try and reproduce. 

I'm quite partial to Heck by the way. 🐖😃👍🏼

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