Focke-Wolf 190A-2 Colour scheme.

[Roger Newsome]

I've been doing a little research into the colour scheme of the above aircraft just in case Eduards 190A-2 was to arrive here. 😉

Eduard and a few other internet sources give the scheme as RLM 74, and 75 over 76, however Tom Cleaver here, 

https://modelingmadness.com/review/axis/cleaver/g/190/tc190a2.htm

 

says,

"Eduard calls out the camouflage for the airplanes in this kit as being RLM 74/75/76. This is incorrect for the Fw-190A-2 and early A-3 aircraft. The correct camouflage is RLM 65 for the lower surfaces and RLM 71/02 on the upper surfaces."

 

I'm not sure if he means all five of the options are incorrect but it looks like he does.

So my question is who is correct?

Thanks in advance,

Roger.

[JackG]

Two key dates, the 190A-2 became available Oct. 1941, while "formalization" of the 75/75/76 scheme was November 1941.  Now, depending on the unit that acquired them, they may have, at the very least, switched to greys if the were operating over water?

 

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/luftcamdb_3.htm

 

regards,

Jack

[Roger Newsome]

Thank you Jack.

I had a feeling there wasn't going to be a simple answer.

".....the complex and sometimes contradictory area of Luftwaffe camouflage colours."

That sums it up pretty well I think.

I'll have a read and bookmark that site, thanks again.

Roger.

[JackG]

There is some more precise dates for production figures here.  A-2 began already in August, while A-3 in November - which could explain Tom Cleaver's statement regarding the application of the earlier scheme.

http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/

 

regards,

Jack

[Chuck1945]

As JackG mentions, the 11/41 date was the formalization of the changes in colors. Unfortunately for this discussion all my books are packed up pending a move, but I remember reading about at least Bf 109s appearing in the greys much earlier in 1941

[Vonbraun]

Early Fw 190 production coincided with with the switch from 71/02/65 to 74/75/76.  It is possible that some of the early Fw 190 production retained the earlier camouflage based on the RAF Intelligence Report describing colors of Armin Faber’s Fw 190 A-3 as dark green, light olive green and pale blue, consistent with 71/02/65.

 

Here are two photo of Faber's machine, Werknummer 313, taken after it landed in error at RAF Pembrey, 23 June 1942... 

 

 

 

The machine is not heavy weathered so the RAF report describing dark green and light olive is significant, but not conclusive, evidence for it being painted, 71/02/65.

 

Some have theorized that the different high and low paint demarcation, as well as and intensity of fuselage mottling are indicative of two different camouflage schemes being employed.  Additionally there is the difference in the upper surface tonal variation seen in some black and white photos that may indicate 71/02 (high contrast) or 74/75 (low contrast).  

 

Here is another photo of very early production Fw 190s.  Note the early gun blister on the wing on the nearest machine and the second machine has no blister at all.

 

 

Note the dense mottling which is consistent with Faber's machine. The machine farthest from the camera has three colors applied to the starboard wing!

 

Compare the mottling to the A-4 below, Werknummer 1197, which was undoubtedly painted with 74/75/76.  There  is very light motttling mainly confined to the tail and cowl...

 

 

It is all very speculative, but I think the preponderance of the evidence slightly favors the use of 71/02/65 on the early production machines.

Edited June 30, 2019 by Vonbraun

[Roger Newsome]

@Chuck1945 @Vonbraun

Thank you both very much for taking your time to reply it's very much appreciated. I think the way forward is to find which of the five options in the kit has photographic evidence which shows which scheme was actually worn. I have a feeling that's going to be easier said than done.

Thanks again to everyone who has replied.

Roger. 

Edited June 30, 2019 by Roger Newsome

[Troy Smith]

8 hours ago, Roger Newsome said:

I think the way forward is to find which of the five options in the kit has photographic evidence which shows which scheme was actually worn. I have a feeling that's going to be easier said than done.

Thanks again to everyone who has replied.

Try here

https://www.asisbiz.com/Fw-190A.html

Quote

Focke-Wulf Fw 190 A/F and G or Würger series, Aircraft grouped by Type, Unit and Location

 

not always weel sorted or accurately captioned,  but worth a look, and lots of useful images anyway

[Roger Newsome]

@Troy Smith

Thanks Troy, that should keep me occupied for a bit. 🙂👍🏼

[JackG]

I like those photos posted Vonbraun.

 

Something to keep in mind is that aircraft were delivered with 4 digit factory codes.  Ground crews would then paint over this area with either light or dark paints and with varying mottle styles (heavy, light, non-existent).  Then the proper squadron and individual aircraft marking would be applied.

 

regards,

Jack

Edited June 30, 2019 by JackG

[Vonbraun]

Here is a color shot of an Fw 190 A-2.  The machine had been assigned originally to  the third Gruppe CO, Pips Priller.  Priller's personal marking, the Ace of Hearts has been altered to the Seven of Hearts, and the III Gruppe CO symbol has been somewhat crudely painted out of the chevron.  71/02/65 or 74/75/76?

 

 

 

Another shot, possibly taken contemporaneously with that above, of Priller and Kurt Tank.  Wing looks like 71/02, or poorly rendered 74/75.  Again my personal view is 71/02 is the best explanation. 

 

[tank152]

1 hour ago, Vonbraun said:

Here is a color shot of an Fw 190 A-2.  The machine had been assigned originally to  the third Gruppe CO, Pips Priller.  Priller's personal marking, the Ace of Hearts has been altered to the Seven of Hearts, and the III Gruppe CO symbol has been somewhat crudely painted out of the chevron.  71/02/65 or 74/75/76?

 

 

 

Another shot, possibly taken contemporaneously with that above, of Priller and Kurt Tank.  Wing looks like 71/02, or poorly rendered 74/75.  Again my personal view is 71/02 is the best explanation. 

 

Got to disagree with you there, the only RLM65 visible in those shots, is where the chevron and Priller's personal emblem has been over painted. I'd also say it is clearly finished in the standard 74/75 colours. The aircraft in question carried the Werknr. 20206 and first appeared in Priller's log book on 11/12/41

The pilot in first photo is Ofw. Walter Grünlinger, Priller's wingman. KIA 4/9/43 after amassing 12 victories. (Information from Luftwaffe im Focus Spezial No1, where those photos were first published.)

People seem to not realise that RLM74had a distinctive green hue to it and was not a dark grey as most model paint companies would have you believe.

I'd never trust fully the colours stated in crashed aircraft reports and the like.  Faber's aircraft may have received a misting of RLM02 to the sides to tone the 76 down, not an entirely un common  practice,but I doubt very much it left the factory in anything but 74/75/76

I've a few Eduard A-2's to build and have no problem with Eduard's colour call outs.

The middle Fw109 with the flat wing root cowl in your first post is a A-1, and can't be built out of the Royal Class boxing so I don't know where Tom Cleaver got that information from. You get 2 or 4 gun wing options that is all and both feature the cowling with the bulge.

[Graham Boak]

45 minutes ago, tank152 said:

 

People seem to not realise that RLM74had a distinctive green hue to it and was not a dark grey as most model paint companies would have you believe.

 

Perhaps, but it is a green hue that isn't visible in photos.  This has been discussed many many times;  some years ago Ken Merrick said (if not in these exact words) that when 74 was new you could see a faint green hue but this disappeared in a short time.  The suggestion made in some documents that the Luftwaffe fighters were painted in much the same green and grey as the RAF has never been justified from contemporary reports.

[Roger Newsome]

Funnily enough I was leaning towards the Priller option, his aircraft in this case being werknr. 0125310, 

Purely based on the fact that he went in to run his wife's family brewery after the war.🍻

 

[tank152]

19 minutes ago, Roger Newsome said:

 

Purely based on the fact that he went in to run his wife's family brewery after the war.🍻

 

As good a reason as any! 🍻

Another thing I disagree with Tom Cleaver with, JG26 were using A-2s long before the channel dash, as noted in my first post Priller recieved his on the 11/12/41 and according to the JG26 War Diary Hptm. Müncheberg scored 2 victories, both 441 Sqd Spitfires on the 16/12/41 in his recently received A-2.

The first loss recorded of a JG26 A-2 W.Nr 217,I have is on the 22/12/41 which was lost in a flying accident. 

You'll love building yours, they're great little kits, i'm on my 3rd one now!

 

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello Roger

Interestingly, post-war Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer took on his wine selling family business, a similar line of work as Priller's. Otherwise, I agree with tank152, colours on those photographs look like RLM 74/75/76 to me, too. Cheers

Jure

P.S.: Also, there is a colour photo of Fw 190 A-1 SB+KA here or actually three versions of the same photo. I have it printed in Jeff Ethell's book WWII war eagles - global air war in original color.  She is definitely in RLM 74/75/76 camouflage scheme.

Edited June 30, 2019 by Jure Miljevic
P.S. added

[Retired Bob]

Hi Roger

I cannot really add anything definitive to the colour debate other than some Bf 109Es were finished in 74/75/76 before they went to North Africa in 41, but with Luftwaffe colour schemes it's a minefield.  The new generation of Eduard FW 190s are great, with no effort they fall together, I bought the A-2 Royal Boxing, built them and bought all the Colourcoats Luftwaffe paints but I just have not got round to painting them, so this thread is of great interest to me.

Edited June 30, 2019 by Retired Bob
missing word

[JackG]

Been looking at my books, as well as online, creating a timeline of these early 190A's, and though I don't have absolute proof, it's quite possible the fw190A-2 may have left the factory only in the grey scheme?

 

In the JG 26 publication by Caldwell, it mentions the 'Channel' units were selected to debut the fw190A-1.  These would be JG 26 and JG 2.  All other fighter units were sent east to prepare for Barbarossa.  Looking at the production tables, the A-2 continued to be sent primarily to these two Western Front units.   Given that experimentation with grey paints were being applied in the later half of the BoB, one year after the fact, some kind of standard must have been decided upon by now?  Assuming the preference for greys were still present as these aircraft were operating over water, could it be possible the factories were instructed to use 74/75/76 since it was already known where they were to be allocated?  

 

On the Eastern front, the first unit to train with the 190A was I./JG 51, arriving back into combat with the A-3 in September 1942.

 

regards,

Jack

Edited July 1, 2019 by JackG

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

8 hours ago, Roger Newsome said:

Funnily enough I was leaning towards the Priller option, his aircraft in this case being werknr. 0125310, 

Purely based on the fact that he went in to run his wife's family brewery after the war.🍻

 

Hello Roger.. Im planning on starting my Priller series in August. I am planning on doing his E-1 all the way to his D-9. Priller is one of my Favorite Luftwaffe pilots of the war. I have some info on his A-4, A-5, A8, and D-9 but most of what i have has been posted already. I will send you anything i find on his early Fw's though. 

 

Dennis

[Roger Newsome]

Thanks very much for you replies @Jure Miljevic @Retired Bob @JackG @Corsairfoxfouruncle

Plenty of info there to help me. The plan is to do this kit during my trip away August/September. It looks like the 74, 75, 76 scheme is the way forward. Any other info will be gratefully received. 

Completion will be celebrated with some Riegele beer, finding a UK source was relatively easy. 😂

Roger. 

[Jerry Crandall]

We have a large piece of the port side fuselage from a recovered JG 2 A-2 with a portion of the eagle wing design. The colors are RLM 02 and RLM 71 on the outside and the inside is RLM 66.

    Cheers, Jerry

 

[JackG]

Hello Jerry, that is interesting, but more interesting what hasn't been said ...

 

- please tell me this wasn't previously owned by a museum

- is it certain these are orignal colours, and not a repaint?

- can it be ascertained if the RLM 02/71 was factory applied,  or added after delivery?

 

regards,

Jack

[Vonbraun]

6 hours ago, Jerry Crandall said:

We have a large piece of the port side fuselage from a recovered JG 2 A-2 with a portion of the eagle wing design. The colors are RLM 02 and RLM 71 on the outside and the inside is RLM 66.

    Cheers, Jerry

 

Wow! This puts the issue to rest for me...

 

Jerry is there any information on the identity of the aircraft the piece came from?

 

Rob

[tank152]

3 hours ago, Vonbraun said:

Wow! This puts the issue to rest for me...

 

Jerry is there any information on the identity of the aircraft the piece came from?

 

Rob

What, on the basis of a piece of 78 years old wreckage, are you serious!

Obviously you're entitled to your opinion and I respect that.

[Vonbraun]

No, not on the basis of a piece of wreckage, but on the opinion of Jerry Crandall.  This in combination with the RAF intelligence report, the color photographic record and evidence of distinguishing dense fuselage mottling on early aircraft.   If you have evidence support a contrary view I would be happy to hear it.

 

Incidentally that 78 year old piece of wreckage that your are referring to is the very thing in question.  It is in the possession one of the most prominent researchers and authors on the subject at hand.