Sea Vixen FAW.1x2

[perdu]

I am confuse.

 

With this pair obviously and with whether it was altering something or other that caused the wingwarping?

 

Good to see that Hendie has previous with dealing with the problem and that respite and reparations are possible.

 

Wonders occuring before our very eye.

 

 

[TheBaron]

Afternoon all.

 

The longer I stared at last weekend's print tests, the greater my level of dissatisfaction with their quality - to the point where I absolutely withdraw my previous comments about them being 'sharp' & etc.

 

I'm embarrassed by the quality of them and they've all been binned as a result. Profuse apologies to all for wasting your time with such substandard results.

 

The rot set in during the week when I looked closely at one of the main wheels (of all things). When I compared those from  last weekend with initial test prints I did of them sometime last August, the more recent versions looked quite - frankly - doo-doo: surface relief inadequately expressed and just generally very blurred looking - akin to an out of focus photograph. Add to that a number of print runs during the week failing (in ways they never have done before now) and it won't surprise you to learn that I'm putting any thoughts of progression on hold until I've solved these production issues.

 

The two main areas of concern are (you can tell this is serious as I'm resorting to bullet points 😞

 

1. Poorly reproduced micro features and soft corners.

2. Prints sticking to FEP in the vat.

 

As I said, I've never encountered such difficulties up until now but then XN708 is by far the most complex set of entities I've ever tried to reproduce in 3d printing, with regard to  the range of shapes and thicknesses involved.

 

Perhaps one of the most irritating aspects of being in at this stage of a developing industry is the poor level of reference materials out there compared to so many other activities. The web is flooded by - it seems - by a whole generation of feckwits on Y-tube bellowing cretinously about  [open caps] 'my insane mini-figure print of Smeglegs the Ventilator' [close caps], followed by a cemetery of exclamation marks. If you're of a mental age of 12 and only interested in printing small statues of deformed rugby players with unfeasible teeth, great, but as most of this stuff is just people remixing each other's videos, it's just vacuous noise. Part of the problem is the tunnel vision pedantry - of the 'this is what you HAVE to do' variety, with no acknowledgement that the complex interactions of photochemistry with material/machinery throw up a whole slew of constantly shifting variables according to the nature of the things being printed.

 

There are no universally-applicable settings and as the last week has shown me, you have to be prepared to sacrifice a lot of time and resin to try and pin down many of these variables. I'll not bore you with the repetitious methodology but by last evening I think I've identified much of what was going wrong. With regard to mulit-part (as opposed to just single part) prints then:

 

• Failed prints. Putting too many parts (especially large ones) on to print at one time so that an absolutely crammed build plate creates very high levels of suction against the FEP. Comparing print runs that all passed happily on XJ481 with more recent failed ones for XN708, in the latter case the build plate is almost completely covered by parts with insufficient gaps between their broad bases. Greater suction in tandem with less empty areas of the FEP between parts not therefore allowing it to flex adequately so that the print can pull free of the film.
• Blurred/soft print detail. Caused by mixing very big and very small parts together on the same plate. Both layer heights and their related exposure times will necessarily have to vary according to the dimension and required level of detail on a part. With no universal setting being appropriate, keep big and small separated into different print runs. It wasn't entirely my fault (your hon.) as part of why last weekend's print detail  turned out so bloody horrible was to do with the beta version of Chitubox I was running - the default layer exposure setting for grey resin ( which had served me well in the past) was mistakenly set too high by the company (at 15 seconds) when I checked it during the week. In the past the default was usually 10). Unsurprisingly (as light is involved) this is the equivalent of over-exposing a digital camera where you lose all detail in the over-exposed portion of the image and get pixel blooming into the surrounding area of the sensor.

On 31/01/2021 at 23:35, hendie said:

In the past I've got around warp issues by several methods. One method was to clamp the printed part to a aluminum sheet and leave it out in the sun for half an hour - of course, that all depends upon the geometry of the part and whether its suitable for clamping like that. 

My other method was to daylight cure in stages.  I had concerns about heat from the UV lamps contributing to the warp, so I'd place parts outside in daylight for only 5 minutes or so, then later for as long as I think it needed.  I'm sure I had some logical scientific reasoning going on in my head though I'll be darned if I can think of it now.  I have to say though that both methods appeared to work.

Alan: I think you hit the nail on the head there - I didn't realize just how hot it gets inside the curing station and whad the wings on for a full 7 mins last time; having since tested a sacrificial part to see exactly how hot it got, I can see why the wing went all Stuka  on me. I think the solution will be to try it in 90 second increments next time for such parts, with cooling periods between as you suggest.

 

Over the last week then there's been a lot of ripe language and note taking to record tests and nail down variables:

- which in tangible form regarding the smallest part involved, looks like:

For such small parts, the print run on the left in the shot above gives the best quality I've ever been able to squeeze out of the printer regarding size and sharpness of definition. Here are some comparison shots of the, with the grotty goods I produced last week (new on the left, old on the right).

AI18 console:

Radar drums:

Radar dish mechanism:

PAS:

And some individual shots of the latest batch:

Arrestor gear door and hook mounting:

Nosegear leg:

Main oleo:

Seat rails and obs. door/hinge:

The thickness of the smallest parts of these wingfold linkages defines I think the limit that you can get to with a printer in this price bracket:

And finally, those pesky wheels that started it all (and now look like they should) 😁:

I think that's case successfully closed now on settings for the smaller parts, which leaves me with some further testing to do on the bigger bits.

 

Speaking of which - remember the problem I had with the nose section shrinking around the front pressure bulkhead?

 

I knocked up a nice little bit of invisible reinforcement just behind the bulkhead to cure the issue:

@hendie will have guessed the result already - I made the problem even worse!

I'm supposing the shrinkage differential/directionality between the fuselage and the bulkhead wall perpendicular to it are too large for any of my bodging to help with so I've turned that  bulkhead into a separate part once more to be added prior to installation of the radar during assembly. On a positive note the cockpit interior slide inside that nose section very nicely indeed on the first attempt, so modifications to those parts have worked a treat.

 

One modest success from last weekend also was that the shapes of the interface elements between wing root and wingfold section give a good solid way of mounting the two pieces accurately together with minimal gaps:

 

The Rolls Royce pipe experts have also been very tactful in not noticing that I'd got some of the pipe layouts wrong on the port Avon. As you're aware, it's not a simple case of mirroring engine parts from on side to the next. This necessitated moving the anti-icing air supply and other pipework on top of the port engine around, and as a consequence having to make a series of cuts to the existing pipes in order to build some modified runs to fit around the engine exterior as per what can be seen in reference photography

Cut & shunt:

 

I had to take some slight liberties where that pipe curves down under the bleed valve on the side of the port engine as I've not seen any photos revealing that area in close up with the engine still inside the bay - the front and rear parts of the run though match closely enough what  photos from above show there though.

 

Anyway, progress of a kind - albeit in terms of depth as opposed to extent - that's given me a greater sensibility to the varying demands of resin and light.

 

I want to watch some more Babylon Berlin later but hope to do a little more tinkering with some larger sections this evening, with a view to putting another print on tomorrow. Take care until the next installment.

Tony

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[keefr22]

I admire your persistence in the pursuit of perfection Tony, I'd have given up long ago (in fact I'd never have started!)

 

New 'ickle parts are looking good!

 

Keith

[hendie]

great update Tony. 

I'll be honest and state that I never noticed those issues until you pointed them out here, but I love your 'here's the warts and all' approach you are showing here. Sometimes even the warts are good as long as you are learning from the process.

I'm in complete agreement about the lack of good reliable info out there as regards the process.  There are a few people around who appear to be at least trying to scientifically mapping the process but for the most part, it's all guff.

As the technology becomes more affordable and the number of users increases, my hope is that more effort is out into resin development.  The current state of the art is perfect for Smeglegs the Ventilator ( ) and his buddies, but not quite as appropriate a material choice for your wingfold linkages, - small delicate parts being far too brittle when cured. I've read of some additives being available to prevent this but haven't got around to trying any out yet

 

43 minutes ago, TheBaron said:

 

@hendie will have guessed the result already - I made the problem even worse!

 

Was that large fillet behind the bulkhead section there previously?  or was it added at the same time as the bulkhead?

 

 

 

[CedB]

A great, honest and helpful update Tony.

Made me realise how complex these things are and I'm pleased we have you (and hendie) to help iron out what I think would be hidden problems just waiting to disappoint us.

 

Thanks matey, great stuff and now on the way to an amazing 'kit'.  

[giemme]

Very interesting and educational update, Tony (and I'm not saying this only in relation to the 3d printing process  ). You seem to be well on your way to figure out all you need to consistently get the best out of it, so great job    

 

Ciao

[Terry1954]

For me Tony that was one of your best updates yet.

 

My own learning, which involves just tutorials on Fusion at present together with some lengthy chats with one of my sons (he lives in Canada, so chat only at present) who has grasped this technology completely, has enabled me to start to understand some of what you have described above, but as Alan says it's the warts and all frankness of your commentary that really helps.

 

You are our pathfinder, teacher and inspirational lead on this technology, as applied to our hobbies more precise requirements. I'm sure many of my colleagues on here will agree with me saying that we appreciate that very much.

 

Terry

 

 

[Pete in Lincs]

Chief Inspector Baron is on the case. As has been said before, that was a hugely impressive update, which goes to show that this is not just a case of

mucking around on the keyboard and then pressing go. I wish I could offer help, but I wouldn't have a clue. I'll just hand out segments of oranges at half time.

While marveling at the depth of understanding and skill on show. I hope you enjoy your TV programme. You deserve it.

[perdu]

3 hours ago, Pete in Lincs said:

I hope you enjoy your TV programme. You deserve it.

He does doesn't he...

 

I wonder if making the fuselage even slightly thinner at the interface of the bulkhead might have had the desired effect by lessening the drawdown in the materials at the surface?

 

Not that I have a clue, for all I know the problem might lie in you not sacrificing enough lemmings at midnight during the print-run.

 

Or cats or willow branches.

 

All these arcane arts have me trembling under the staircase you know.

[Pete in Lincs]

Never thought of that. Shove over a bit. I've brought a bottle of cold tea and a lard doorstop.

[Space Ranger]

Your printing trials and tribulations remind me of an old saying from the days of American westward expansion: "You can recognize the pioneers by the arrows in their backs."

[perdu]

11 hours ago, Pete in Lincs said:

and a lard doorstop.

Any little crunchy bits?

[Pete in Lincs]

My Brother gets them cos he's workin'

[heloman1]

Wow, look at those small parts, unbelievable. I wish I had your talent and patients to draw these. I have a ton of things I'd like printed.

 

Awesome!!!

 

Colin

[Fritag]

On 2/6/2021 at 1:47 PM, TheBaron said:

Here are some comparison shots of the, with the grotty goods I produced last week (new on the left, old on the right).

 

Hmm.  I think that ‘grotty goods’ has to be viewed in purely relative terms.  As in Richard Branson is a pauper in a comparison with Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk.....

 

So the new goods are Bezos to the old goods Branson.....not sure I should have started that 🤔😁

Edited February 8, 2021 by Fritag

[perdu]

On 07/02/2021 at 08:21, Pete in Lincs said:

My Brother gets them cos he's workin'

fair enough

[woody37]

It's been a while since I left comment, but this is just incredible. I can't imagine how many hours have gone in to it, skill and patience are both in abundance!

 

Can't wait to see it coming together

[TheBaron]

A good morning to you all amidst the bitter chill and snow flurries. I thought April was the cruellest month - not February - as it's snowing to deceive here and doesn't look like enough to form a blanket.

 

If you detect a slightly giddy note in my words it is that finally

                                                 finally

                                                                                                                         finally

                           I have a complete working print  of XN708. 🥚🐥

 

Since last posting here on Saturday I had the gear running day and night to troubleshoot all of the remaining print variables that were causing problems, and over the last 24hrs, everything big and small that went on came out successfully with no failures. Certainly going to bed last night was with a sense of relief I'd finally got a better feel for the whole process now with regard to balancing the chemical and mechanical variables involved in printing all of the different parts. It'll take me a few days to clean the remaining support structures off: I'll post an overall view in a minute after answering the mail...

 

On 06/02/2021 at 14:21, keefr22 said:

I admire your persistence in the pursuit of perfection Tony

I will not have my dreams beaten by physical reality Keith!

On 06/02/2021 at 14:42, hendie said:

There are a few people around who appear to be at least trying to scientifically mapping the process but for the most part, it's all guff..

Agreed  Alan. There's a number of wonderful, altruistic people out there with helpful online video channels about various techniques in Fusion for example, yet for some reason much of the actual print process itself seems to display an unhelpful mixture of limited experience with male pedantry. Boys with toys I guess.

On 06/02/2021 at 14:42, hendie said:

As the technology becomes more affordable and the number of users increases, my hope is that more effort is out into resin development.

Agreed again; I'm thoroughly optimistic though that the next decade is going to see a whole range of exciting new materials and processes available to us (necessarily including microbial solutions to remedy plastic waste). I'm particularly taken by some of the more exotic output options available via Shapeways and looking forwards to domestic (and affordable!) versions for some of those metal and laser-based processes.

 

Wooden cockpit canopies anyone?

 

My plans to grow replacement teeth from coral are of course in their early stages....

 

On 06/02/2021 at 14:42, hendie said:

not quite as appropriate a material choice for your wingfold linkages, - small delicate parts being far too brittle when cured.

It won't surprise you to know that I printed a number of spares with just such an eventuality in mind. If I could find an affordable mini home furnace, those parts would be a perfect candidate for some lost wax (i.e resin) metal casting...

On 06/02/2021 at 14:42, hendie said:

Was that large fillet behind the bulkhead section there previously? 

Nope. I added it retrospectively and quickly came to regret it. The print without it and with the bulkhead now a separate part worked fine yesterday.

On 06/02/2021 at 14:47, CedB said:

Thanks matey, great stuff and now on the way to an amazing 'kit'.

Ta very much Ced - see below (hopefully).... 😁

On 06/02/2021 at 14:52, giemme said:

Very interesting and educational update, Tony (and I'm not saying this only in relation to the 3d printing process  ). You seem to be well on your way to figure out all you need to consistently get the best out of it, so great job  

 

Kind of you - as always - Giorgio.

The key to unlocking many of the problems I was having was to become aware of how a series of various  factors and forces (some mechanical and some chemical) interact with each other under varying sets of conditions. I have a new and profound respect for the meaning of the word 'variable' as a consequence!

On 06/02/2021 at 15:00, Terry1954 said:

For me Tony that was one of your best updates yet.

 

My own learning, which involves just tutorials on Fusion at present together with some lengthy chats with one of my sons (he lives in Canada, so chat only at present) who has grasped this technology completely, has enabled me to start to understand some of what you have described above, but as Alan says it's the warts and all frankness of your commentary that really helps.

 

You are our pathfinder, teacher and inspirational lead on this technology, as applied to our hobbies more precise requirements. I'm sure many of my colleagues on here will agree with me saying that we appreciate that very much.

That is characteristically generous Terry - if the Gorge Cafe in Dorchester is still running when CV-19 is over I owe you a big plate of their excellent ham, egg & chips for that for sure:

(plus all the white bread and butter you can eat of course... 😁)

On 06/02/2021 at 15:49, Pete in Lincs said:

I wish I could offer help,

Your unfailing good humour is all the help a chap needs Pete.

On 06/02/2021 at 15:49, Pete in Lincs said:

I hope you enjoy your TV programme.

I did! I do! I will again tonight! 😄

Even the title sequence is a work of art:

 

On 06/02/2021 at 18:58, perdu said:

I wonder if making the fuselage even slightly thinner at the interface of the bulkhead might have had the desired effect by lessening the drawdown in the materials at the surface?

I am not a subtle man Bill _ I just whipped the bulkhead off completely as a separate part!

On 06/02/2021 at 18:58, perdu said:

you not sacrificing enough lemmings at midnight during the print-run

You'd think I'd learn my lesson by now but oh no; it's as if the phrase 'spare the lemming, spoil the print' had never been invented... 🤦‍♂️

On 07/02/2021 at 03:38, Space Ranger said:

Your printing trials and tribulations remind me of an old saying from the days of American westward expansion: "You can recognize the pioneers by the arrows in their backs."

I had no idea the arrows were quite so big Michael...

I see they built a tower to commemorate that building surviving a near miss by one:

On 08/02/2021 at 10:40, heloman1 said:

Wow, look at those small parts, unbelievable.

A phrase calculated to put a chill in the heart of every red blooded male Colin.

On 08/02/2021 at 10:40, heloman1 said:

I wish I had your talent and patients to draw these. I have a ton of things I'd like printed.

Patience and practice. Those two things alone will in my experience open many a creative door.

Thanks for your kind words.

23 hours ago, Fritag said:

So the new goods are Bezos to the old goods Branson.....not sure I should have started that

Bless you dear heart for dusting this thread with a billionaire chic!

I'll have to ponder the accuracy of that sentiment though over a quick coffee...

18 hours ago, woody37 said:

It's been a while since I left comment, but this is just incredible. I can't imagine how many hours have gone in to it, skill and patience are both in abundance!

The swearing. You forgot to mention the swearing! 😁

 

Right.

That's kept you dangling long enough. Herewith I present you XN708 in its raw unassembled form, the outer wings indeed still hot out of the resin:

Whilst on the other bench lie some of the the smouldering remains of discarded test prints produced over the course of the last week's troubleshooting :

XJ481 to the right there was of course ok.

 

One persistent anomaly has been port air intake on the main fuselage section - you an see in the first of the above photos that it's blocked by a layer of cured resin. I think this is the result of suction within the tunnel on that side which, despite varying the vertical orientation of the part on both the x- and y-axes, refused to go away so I'll have to live with it. Its about 1-1.5mm thick on average and easily unblocked with a drill bit and some light file work. Aside from that I feel confident enough to say that I an focus now on assembling these parts for test fit. Despite it being late last night I couldn't resist making a start on mocking up some brass for the radar scanner:

As you can see by the hole in the right hand resin part for the rear mounting of the scanner, it should be possible to install this on the aircraft in working azimuth form. I'll carry on with this in spare moments over the week and stick more progress shots up in due course.

 

Pundits are already calling this: 'View of the Irish Industrial Landscape':

Might like an incense stick later for that smoky chimney effect.....

 

Forgot to post this gem previously, 1st August edition 1931 (arrived a little late in the post a couple of weeks back):

Had hoped there's be more in the way of Peto shots inside for reference but although sadly not, it turned out to be a period goldmine in the Picture Post / Life magazine vein regarding contemporary life not shown in history books.

Includes a great shot of these ravers giving it a hot hoof down at the Moulin de la Galette:

Party on mes dudes & etc.

Tony

 

[CedB]

He's done it! Excellent!  

 

Great to see you have cracked it, although not literally, of course.

Well done me Lord.

 

What else?

Transparent wood? Good grief, whatever next. Think it's time to invest in Hydrogen Peroxide? Or wood?

 

Babylon Berlin… I've added that to my watch list. After I've finished 'Game of Thrones' (again - a neighbour is lending me the DVDs. Now, where's that remote?) and 'The West Wing'. I'm sort of alternating between the two when the blood and rumpy-pumpy* gets all a bit too much for me…

 

* The spell checker corrected that too 'lumpy-pumpy'. Say what? Am I missing something?

Perhaps a soundtrack from 'Boys Own Adventure'? Never heard of it.

Or a lumpy bumpy dessert that looks yummy but would never get past the diet police** Mrs B.

Nah, I think I'll stick to the original thanks.

 

** I almost used the 'N' word there. No, not that one, the one with boots. Shame on me

[bbudde]

Hello Tony. That looks brilliant. Impressed!. The radar nose looks also great. Keen to see this one built up.

Cheers

[Brandy]

Thanks so much for those last two updates Tony, they're priceless! Although only 2 of my prints didn't adhere to the plate, there were a couple more that had bent bases and looked as though they were not far off from detaching. It also looks as though I have too many supports on the small items. The tips about separating small and large items and not overloading the plate should also be very useful.

I've spent the last 2 afternoons redesigning my bits (ooh err, mrs!) and hope to reprint them very soon. I will divide and conquer as you have!

Many thanks indeed!

 

Ian

[Terry1954]

5 hours ago, TheBaron said:

That is characteristically generous Terry - if the Gorge Cafe in Dorchester is still running when CV-19 is over I owe you a big plate of their excellent ham, egg & chips for that for sure:

(plus all the white bread and butter you can eat of course... 😁)

 

It would be a great pleasure to dine with you in the Gorge. I have eaten there on a few occasions. And if you were over for a while, we could nip down to Weymouth for a visit to this treasure trove that I know you have frequented!

 

 

There is so much catching up to be done post Covid, with so many good colleagues from BM. In fact, @CedB and @Ex-FAAWAFU and I have been holding off on a trip for some time. Boscombe and Wallop as I recall.

 

I'm sure our collective days will come eventually!

 

Terry

[woody37]

@TheBaron your last post alone must of took more time than I've spent modelling in 2021 😂

 

Loved the photo of the workbench covered in bits and a near completed assembly

 

[71chally]

Unfortunately I haven't much time of late, so catching up on such beautifully crafted creations, not to mention threads, has been difficult.

All I can say is, what superb work, all that planning and design ins paying off in spades now Tony!

[bigbadbadge]

Pleased for you fella, you have done amazingly well, you should be rightly proud of your achievements there.

Great job

Chris