Sea Vixen FAW.1x2

[71chally]

The red look was a protective finish, I'm guessing a sort of translucent oil or grease, that was applied to wing and airbrake folds etc at one stage with the Navy.   

There was another stage when undercarriages appeared a goldy green for a similar reason.

 

F00496_forum by Bernard Mills, on Flickr

 

F00483_forum by Bernard Mills, on Flickr

@Bernard Mills - Flickr

 

This is a great shot illustrating how high the seat could go and the proximity of head to windscreen arch

 

 

Love the illustration with the seat images superimposed.

 

 

Dr Tinkle, indeed!

 

 

 

Edited September 26, 2020 by 71chally

[giemme]

14 minutes ago, 71chally said:

Love the illustration with the seat images superimposed.

Me too, great idea  

 

Ciao

[bigbadbadge]

1 hour ago, TheBaron said:

Gracias Christofero - de Havilland are a hard act to follow!

They certainly are  all DH machines look wonderful.   I see the second photo above is a couple of HMS Centaur,  lovely that was my Dad's ship when they arrived for trials, I have a very small photo of one about to take off but that is all he had and you can't really see much . All the other photos are of Seahawks and Gannets,  this was handy for my Seahawk build. 

Sorry for the thread drift.

Chris

 

[The Spadgent]

More lovely stuff. Bravo dear boy. 🤩

[CedB]

Agreed.

Now then, I see they do 'clear resin' for the Elegoo… is that worth some experimenting do you think?

Eh?

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

10 hours ago, TheBaron said:

I read recently that the RNAS never actually received royal assent and so technically the FAA is still the Royal Flying Corps.

Can this be true?

The RNAS bit could be true - after all, it was only in existence for a short time - but the conclusion is definitely wrong; the RFC & NAS (whether Royal or not) were both abolished on 1 April 1918 with the advent of the world’s longest running April Fool joke.

 

The phrase “Fleet Air Arm” was originally “Fleet Air Arm of the Royal Air Force” (in the inter-War days when the aircraft & at least half of the people in Naval aviation were indeed RAF), but for obvious reasons it was fairly quickly abbreviated.  FAARAF a bit of a mouthful even for the 1930s.  
 

So technically the Fleet Air Arm... is the Fleet Air Arm.  [More of a Fleet Air Finger nowadays, alas, though still punching above its weight in contribution to the RN.]

 

 

Fabulous Vixen-ery, Tony.  I recall that fitting the bottom of the resin (Aires??) cockpit and top of the nose u/c well was a real challenge even in 1/48 - the cockpit floor and well roof both ended up Mr Creosote Waffer Theen after a LOT of sanding - so I am not entirely surprised that the tolerances are tight in your scale.

[TheBaron]

Welcome to the Sunday Service.

 

First to the pulpit are Brothers Peter and James, with a reading from the Book of Lubricants:

17 hours ago, Pete in Lincs said:

Probably PX-7, a grease like substance used for anti corrosion porpoises.

 

17 hours ago, 71chally said:

The red look was a protective finish, I'm guessing a sort of translucent oil or grease, that was applied to wing and airbrake folds etc at one stage with the Navy.   

There was another stage when undercarriages appeared a goldy green for a similar reason.

Thank you both.

(Not sure about '481 on land-based trials work but would '708 have been likely to be smeared with the stuff in 1964? No absolute way to I suppose - The crash happened bombing off Portland Bill but I can't recollect was she flying from Yeovilton or from a carrier deck at the time.

17 hours ago, 71chally said:

Love the illustration with the seat images superimposed.

 

17 hours ago, giemme said:

Me too, great idea

The 'image-plane function in Fusion is great for allowing you to use reference directly within the design - as long as the viewpoint of the original photo was perpendicular to the sides/top/bottom:

The correspondence between these two is complicated slightly by the fact that the front view seems to have been tipped forwards slightly so that the angled seat back is perpendicular, not the overall seat position itself. At points like this as long as you're aware of such discrepancies, you can kind of mentally re-calibrate to take this into account. Any kind of heavy perspective/distortion in images (such as produced by close-ups with a short focal length lens) are by contrast useless unless you can remove the optical distortion based on known characteristics. This can be done if you've taken the photo yourself and consequently know the camera/lens type combination, but for most historical images, this isn't recorded like the EXIF data produced by digital cameras today.

16 hours ago, bigbadbadge said:

I see the second photo above is a couple of HMS Centaur,  lovely that was my Dad's ship when they arrived for trials,

16 hours ago, The Spadgent said:

More lovely stuff. Bravo dear boy

How many builds have you got on the go at the moment Spadders? Did I see about 12 listed the other evening? 😁

15 hours ago, CedB said:

Now then, I see they do 'clear resin' for the Elegoo… is that worth some experimenting do you think?

It's getting close to being possible Ced but I've yet to see any convincing canopy transparencies done with printers like the Elegoo that don't look like clumsy injection moulds tbh.  The combination of thickness and optical clarity just isn't there if you want to view the contents beneath undistorted by the surrounding medium.

 

There's a forum thread over here that illustrates the limitations rather well:

Personally I still think a good quality vacformed transparency (of the Falcon Clear Vax kind) at 1/72 remains the benchmark for clarity at this scale. That said, I am here going to investigate a 3d printed buck for vacforming instead, though that's a bit later in the schedule.

7 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

So technically the Fleet Air Arm... is the Fleet Air Arm.

I would not wish to see it otherwise quite honestly. A name which resonates.

7 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

fitting the bottom of the resin (Aires??) cockpit and top of the nose u/c well was a real challenge even in 1/48 - the cockpit floor and well roof both ended up Mr Creosote Waffer Theen after a LOT of sanding - so I am not entirely surprised that the tolerances are tight in your scale.

Have had some fun in this department for a couple of hours this morning in virtual form - so tight are the internal tolerances on the actual aircraft (you have to admire them simply being able to cram everything into those two cockpits n a workable fashion..) that some liberties will have to be taken at this scale - more below ⤵️

 

Having looked at a lot of seats  - especially at 1/72, though the Airfix 1/48 jobs look gruesomely chunky to me also - I wasn't sold on the idea of trying to repeat these limitation using printing but decided to start with a test seat pan to set a baseline of practicability:

Doesn't look too bad does it?

Except that at 0.1mm thick, those panels all fall below the threshold that will print.

 

Unsurprised at this, I fell back on Plan B which was to build the seat pans using the sheet metal tools in Fusion.

 

Visuals aside, the most important parameter was going always going to be width - due to the necessarily over-scale wall thicknesses needed (to avoid buckling and shrinkage after printing) for both the surrounding fuselage and interior walls of the nose-wheel bay. To examine this problem I mocked up sheet metal bases and backs for both pilot and observer and positioned them into their respective locations for a test fitting:

 

Not surprisingly the two issues I'd anticipated were to the fore, in terms of the front left side of the observer's seat clipping the wheel well, and right side of the pilot's seat encountering the same superimposition to port. The pilot's side doesn't actually cause any undue problems due to the fact  it sits up far enough above the negative space that the wheel itself retracts into  that it falls inside the region I'm going to be trimming and reshaping to form the instrument consoles that surround the pilot down the centreline of the cockpit:

The observer's seat is the one place I'm going to have to sacrifice structural accuracy and cut slightly into the same negative space lower down in order for the seat to fit: as this intrusion will be won't be visible from above, and will be invisible from below due to the long rear door of the nose wheel being closed to cover this region anyway, the overall visuals of this section won't be compromised:

This is for '708 of course. With '481 in flight the coal hole will be close from above and the u/c doors similarly shut so even less of an issue on the second plane.

 

The full sheet metal seat pan:

The reason for using this method instead of designing for a printed form is that quite simply you can unfold a sheet metal design and voilà:

 - you have a 2D planar version complete with fold lines that can be exported to produce a photo-etch part from.

 

That was the first time I'd attempted using the sheet metal function and although you kind of mentally have to function in terms of building things out of walls the whole time, the process looks incredibly promising for designing PE components of all kinds.

 

The remaining rails and headrest sections (along with all the associated upholstery)of the seats I still reckon will print fine for 1/72, but this component should give an underlying crispness to the Mk. 4s that printing alone wouldn't be capable of producing; I must remember to add this to the 'brass' design file now along with the wing fence and fold mechanism lattice.

 

Ta for dropping by and talk to you later in the week.

Tony

 

 

 

 

[bigbadbadge]

Very nice imagery Tony, I wondered when you would be back on the metal again.  Great stuff

Chris

[71chally]

Yes, XN708 was operating from Yeovilton on that tragic sortie.

 

here's a good example of the greeny/gold finish, best i can find at the mo

 

 

Talking of how to possibly render XN708 weathering and staining wise, earlier in the thread, you've probably seen this but it will help you, alot, 

https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/view/1511868

The comment at the bottom is somewhat sobering.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 27, 2020 by 71chally

[TheBaron]

3 hours ago, bigbadbadge said:

Very nice imagery Tony, I wondered when you would be back on the metal again. 

🤘😁 Thanks Chris.

 

Think I'm going to try sexperiment with brass for the various instrument panels girdling the pilot and observer as well, in order to give definition without the deeper sheets that resin would create - anything that saves on occupying space inside there is at a premium now quite frankly.

 

34 minutes ago, 71chally said:

here's a good example of the greeny/gold finish, best i can find at the mo

Thanks James - that should give an interesting challenge with oil washes at the weathering stage, and a nice way of drawing out further definition from the wing fold mechanism. 🖌️

34 minutes ago, 71chally said:

The comment at the bottom is somewhat sobering.

The statistics from this period are horrifying.

 

[71chally]

Just now, TheBaron said:

Think I'm going to trysexperiment

...you know you're not going to get away with that here, don't you!

[TheBaron]

4 minutes ago, 71chally said:

...you know you're not going to get away with that here, don't you!

Like there's anything wrong in sexperimenting with a Vixen... 🤣

[71chally]

I would have just denied it, and pointed the blame at me doing a re-edit in the quote!🤣

[perdu]

Sexperimentation huh

 

 

Let me think…

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, a little longer please.

 

 

 

 

 

Water please nurse, yes over him, thanks

 

So we will be seeing an etch sheet, yes? No?

 

Fold mechanism lattice?

 

Will that be the one in the middle on the fold 'folder' ram hinge or the ones left and right of that with the cast effect that operate the down locking mechanisms?

 

I was almost driven to learn how to etch my own bits for that task, but getting that cast, ribbed look frightened me.

 

I think I would have been prepared to sacrifice sev a few maybe one virgin(s) to have them available because the Airwaves set looked too stilted to me for that vital task.

 

Loving how it is all coming back to principles of modelling.

 

Not entirely loving' the other stuff'.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm nowhere near Ireland to assist.

 

 

[TheBaron]

13 hours ago, 71chally said:

I would have just denied it, and pointed the blame at me doing a re-edit in the quote!🤣

Shocking to contemplate James.

Besides - only a fool would rile the fount of wisdom on matters Vixonian at this critical time - lest one receive false counsel and end up building the first biplane version with chin turret....

10 hours ago, perdu said:

So we will be seeing an etch sheet, yes? No?

 

Fold mechanism lattice?

In order Bill:

1. Yes! I have the chemicals and metal, just slowly accruing parts along the way to make up a sheet out of. Oh, and the very minor matter of never having done it before.... 😁 Having followed Steve's adventures in brass - and through him Mr. Cheshiretasuras' lab work of a few years back - there's no excuse for not giving it a crack qwait frawnkly. Recently acquired a copy of this as well due to it having much illuminating advice on naval matters as well:                                                                                        
2. The brick red component below is the lattice section in question:                                                                                                 

Everything else in that series of connections for the locking pins is resin-printable except this, on the grounds of part thickness.

11 hours ago, perdu said:

the Airwaves set looked too stilted to me for that vital task.

Funnily enough that lattice was the one part that actually looks the errr...'part' in that set.

 

 

 

[perdu]

I agree about that but the rest just looks wrong and yes I did tell Andrew* I disliked it a couple of years ago.

I did try carving out the 'lattices' for my Sea Vixen but as usual scale creep did it's usual buggerbillup job and I ended up codging the whole damned thing on the model although I sorely wanted to get it right

 

 

Sadly it just didn't work

 

 

*Andrew is my mate Andrew Deeley, son of Ed of ED Models who owned Airwaves back in the day

[The Spadgent]

On 9/27/2020 at 2:17 PM, TheBaron said:

How many builds have you got on the go at the moment Spadders? Did I see about 12 listed the other evening? 😁

Four consecutive builds for my sins. 🤪

[TheBaron]

No progress going to be happening here for a while folks as within a couple of hours of replying to Bill on Monday I found myself rather nonplussed to be stretched out in the local emergency room, having blood tests pulled at the same rate painkillers were being pumped in.

 

Likely to remain in hospital until at least the weekend whilst testing continues around the  central fuselage to try and identify the source of internal bleeding.

 

Any jokes about a stuck bleed valve should be sent on a postcard to &etc., etc.

 

'Groggy of Ireland'

 

 

 

 

[71chally]

Oh crap Tony, really hope you are stabilised and recover to get back home soonest

 

Strangely I've had a similar sounding thing with blood deficiency issues for a while, just inconvenient with hospital and Dr visits, and being layed up every now and then, certainly no where near as serious a condition as yourself there.

 

Best wishes👍🤞

[Heather Kay]

Ouch! Good luck and all that. Hopefully they find the problems and get the Dear Baron back up to full speed quickly.

 

I have been having a run-in with the local hospital this year. Problems *downstairs* as Cissy and Ada might have put it. The latest episode was this morning, being relieved of some extra plumbing. Happily, all seems to be working correctly now. I often say the best place to be ill tends to be where there are plenty of medical professionals on hand.

[Terry1954]

Oh dear, so sorry to hear that Tony. Having had two separate major hospital emergencies myself in the last 6 years, I can empathise with how you must feel.

 

Sending best wishes and strong get well soon vibes across the Irish Sea in your direction!

 

Terry

[perdu]

Bugger

 

Hope it isnt my fault although the way medical things are going this year it may well be

 

Stay quiet and follow nursey's admonitions

We can catch you later when you have owt to tell us

 

Get well soon mate

[Hamden]

 

Sorry to hear your news Tony.  Best Wishes for a full and speedy recovery

 

  Roger

[Bugle07]

News nobody ever wants to hear 

 

Fingers and toes crossed for a speedy recovery Tony, all the best.

 

Nurse, special treatment for that there man.

 

Geoff 

[giemme]

Fingers crossed here too, Tony 🤞

 

Here's to a quick recovery!

 

Ciao