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Sea Vixen FAW.1x2


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17 minutes ago, TheBaron said:

No captain can do very wrong if he places his ship pallet alongside that of the enemy.'

Yep, cats are weird creatures. Don't understand their flavour to sit on things like this and of course their fetish love for cardboxes, especially when you just need them. There could be so much more comfortable things to sit on.

Grand work by the way and very nice ship book. Always liked british carriers.

Cheers

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4 hours ago, TheBaron said:

 

50362204048_db773d8b74_z.jpg

 

 

Sea Vixen seats are a bit of a messy subject, different variants of the mk4 seat were used during its service life, and for some of that the obs seat was different to the pilots seat.

Both my Mk1 cockpit, and XJ481 at Yeovilton have the seats as you have drawn them, ie without the horseshoe pack shield on the obs seat.  I'm not saying that's necessarily correct though.

 

Will try and come up with more info later.

 

Also if you need dimensions for the cockpit area, just shout.

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'Village Hangar' may get misinterpreted and you could get moved on by the Police.

I did come up with 'Vintage Spare' but you might suffer the same fate.

Would 'Vintage Hangar Resins' work for you?

 

Old saying, Dogs have Masters, Cats have Servants. They have to do weird things, otherwise life would be such a bore.

 

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7 hours ago, bbudde said:

There could be so much more comfortable things to sit on.

One of our furry tribe routinely likes to sit draped across my throat for warmth and purring loudly whenever I'm lying on the bed reading. It is not the most unpleasant sensation in the world... :laugh:

3 hours ago, 71chally said:

Both my Mk1 cockpit, and XJ481 at Yeovilton have the seats as you have drawn them, ie without the horseshoe pack shield on the obs seat.  I'm not saying that's necessarily correct though.

I suspect that like many such operational matters it may not be possible to arrive at an historically definitive conclusion and will just have to run on the balance of probability!

3 hours ago, 71chally said:

Also if you need dimensions for the cockpit area, just shout.

Length from front to rear pressure bulkheads (stns 79.5 to 176) if you have them handy would be a boon James. Bless you.

 

Width and height in there are going to be compromised by the 0.8mm wall thickness however so I'm going to have to be creative in keeping things as representative as possible.

 

I did resolve the cockpit floor/pilot height conundrum from earlier though - his seat has the equivalent of a Cuban heel!

2020-09-20_05-59-18

 

1 hour ago, Pete in Lincs said:

'Village Hangar' may get misinterpreted and you could get moved on by the Police.

It's patently obvious that my mind's in the sewer much of the time but this one is beyond my ken Pete.

 

Is that a Lincs thing? :hmmm:

1 hour ago, Pete in Lincs said:

Would 'Vintage Hangar Resins' work for you?

It's dangerously close to 'Lovejoy Antiques' (and I ain't got enough hair left for a mullet).

 

9am meeting online with a whole department tomorrow, and another again at 2.

I hate meetings.

There's always some jobsworth who objects to the clown makeup.

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2 minutes ago, TheBaron said:

Is that a Lincs thing?

Maybe it's just me (This glass of red wine has nothing to do with my reasoning). 

It occurred to me that most people wouldn't know the difference between Hangar and Hanger.

Read as Village Hanger it may sound a bit risque to some.

7 minutes ago, TheBaron said:

There's always some jobsworth who objects to the clown makeup.

Wear a mask. That will keep them guessing. Though the red nose could be a giveaway.

Oh, and this time, Trousers. Remember that time when you stood up to bow to that visitor from Japan?

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2 minutes ago, Pete in Lincs said:

Read as Village Hanger it may sound a bit risque to some.

Is that a Lincs thing? :evil_laugh:

3 minutes ago, Pete in Lincs said:

Oh, and this time, Trousers. Remember that time when you stood up to bow to that visitor from Japan?

Since then in Japan I'm known as 'Mr. Sea Cucumber'.

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Gotta be quick, but the obs seat is right down on the deck, there is a recess for that 'Cuban heel' affair. Basically its a double hinge mechanism to allow the seat to tip forwards allowing the kids to get in the back access to the equipment behind the seats.

The pilots seat can be motored up and down, which is a nice get out of jail free way of having the kit seat height how you want it.

 

The cockpit section, at the rear bulkhead it's 1605 mm at the widest point, at the front pressure bulkhead it's 1510mm across the widest points.  It's 2490mm between those bulkheads.

 

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Taking "hangar " as a starting point I was thinking  Airstrip or "Village  Strip" as a name suggestion  until I realised you would get entirely the wrong sort of customers ......

Mind you "Village Fox 'could work in terms of a nice logo (and  honour  your first subject at the same time )  if I am selected as the  winner may I please have my winners kit autographed ? "To Neil , thanks for last night you were wonderful " ?  I have also enclosed 9 chocolate bar  wrappers and a photocopy of the brit modeller entry form as I didn't want to cut up my copy of the Internet. ..also enclosed are  two International reply coupons for a copy of your forthcoming catalogue ! 😉

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If we're going to pick a winner here, we're going to need a bigger hat. Anyone know of an unused gasometer?

There are some nice ones in Vienna. But that would be silly.

 

@Neil Lambess You're dafter than me. Or did you get the rest of that red wine?

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96.5 inches at a guess, since a "station" is a measurement from a known reference point. ie station 100 is 100 inches from said reference.

It's all to do with mass and balance calculations. Every item has a moment depending on its weight and arm (station). CG limits are fore and aft stations basically. The CG has to be between those two points for a given total weight.

 

Ian

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On 9/20/2020 at 9:18 PM, Pete in Lincs said:

Try hanging around a Lincolnshire village and see what happens.

Something to do with turning into a frog Pete? :hmmm:

On 9/20/2020 at 10:13 PM, 71chally said:

the obs seat is right down on the deck,

James: I'm assuming that it's the launch rail the seat is mounted against that is flush with the deck, with the seat pain itself raised just enough to allow the Obs. some leg room?

On 9/20/2020 at 10:13 PM, 71chally said:

The cockpit section, at the rear bulkhead it's 1605 mm at the widest point, at the front pressure bulkhead it's 1510mm across the widest points.  It's 2490mm between those bulkheads.

Perfect. :thanks:

That lets me set up defining image planes now at either end in the software when starting to reconcile inside and out to each other.

On 9/20/2020 at 10:44 PM, Neil Lambess said:

I was thinking  Airstrip or "Village  Strip" as a name suggestion  until I realised you would get entirely the wrong sort of customers ......

:laugh:

I refer counsel to the above video documentation...

On 9/20/2020 at 10:44 PM, Neil Lambess said:

"To Neil , thanks for last night you were wonderful " ?

:rofl:

'He never even told me his name....'

On 9/20/2020 at 10:44 PM, Neil Lambess said:

Mind you "Village Fox 'could work

No.

Not the village I live in.

The local accent could lead to serial misunderstandings (officer)....

On 9/21/2020 at 9:09 AM, Pete in Lincs said:

Anyone know of an unused gasometer?

There's one in 10 Downing St.

On 9/21/2020 at 4:02 PM, Brandy said:

It's all to do with mass and balance calculations. Every item has a moment depending on its weight and arm (station). CG limits are fore and aft stations basically. The CG has to be between those two points for a given total weight.

This is really interesting Ian and I understood part of it. 😁 (thank-you). :thumbsup2:

On 9/21/2020 at 10:58 PM, The Spadgent said:

I’ll just let you get on with what you were doing.

Whatever it might be that clinical psychology defines it as. :rofl:

Ta Johnny. :thumbsup2:

 

Wednesday lunchtime and taking a few hours away from work to detox - between continual Teams meetings, Excel sharing, and multiple online clamours for attention, the signal to noise ratio mean stepping away periodically to rid your head of the constant stimulus. Luckily this place with you lot in it exists, along with the peaceful distraction that comes from sketching out ideas about forthcoming tasks:

50374894361_b8e7a74b8c_b.jpg

Ergonomically I think that M.C. Escher may have had a hand in designing the layout and relationship of the two cockpits to one another - at least when looking at wide-angle photos taken from within those cramped quarters, where  perspectival distortion exacerbates the visual problem of what panels go where in relation to one another.

Luckily there are several quite clarifying pages from the manual that I've added to a separate mood board to help in seat design and placement:

50374121028_d7bb87e4c8_b.jpg

The seats do I reckon make a useful visual datum for both inside and out due to their visual prominence and placement as features of the aircraft in this region. One useful discovery in design terms was finding a Mk.4 from a period company advert:

50369113191_5dcc003425_c.jpg

This doesn't of course have the shoulder pan fitted that you see in some shots of the pilot's seat in particular but this does give truly  excellent views front and side views to begin designing the basic structure of the seat from, prior to adding specific details later.

 

One existing  feature that needs incorporating into the cockpit layout is the well for the nose wheel: on '481 this causes no issues as the aircraft will be displayed in flight, however '780 with all its bits on show has to deal with this intrusion beneath panels J&K:

50374894406_bc7cb47847_b.jpg

Alarums began a ringing when I did a quick check on the nose section for 780 and realized just how far my existing design protruded into the cockpit space:

50374988552_eabc6662a2_b.jpg

:hmmm:Cue 60 seconds (alright, at least 50) of 'feckin' halfwit' nuclear levels of self-reproach, before sheepishly recollecting that I hadn't been such a silly old Hector after all:

50374819761_5c695ea566_b.jpg

Anticipating the need for further modifications in this area (but way back in the forgotten mists of what passed for summer) , I'd made the wheel well a distinct feature that can be modified separately without disturbing the rest of the airframe. :phew:

We may have to sacrifice a little leg room here and there, but cutting that body down should allow the required seats and panels to be added in above and around it:

50375063017_c5fb040b52_b.jpg

I intiially though that this raised feature (which I think is part of the the flight control system into which the joystick is mounted) was above the cabin floor:

50374195538_0127f51bc9_b.jpg

but I think it must be a sub floor feature as the support structure for this

On 9/20/2020 at 10:13 PM, 71chally said:

The pilots seat can be motored up and down, which is a nice get out of jail free way of having the kit seat height how you want it.

needs to fit in there:

50375284137_afe75a6904_n.jpg

I've no clear drawing or photo ref. for that mechanism under the pilot's seat beyond this so earlier I was willing the camera in the Navy Wings removal video to pan down and show it, even though I've watched the video countless times and know it doesn't! ::blink:🎥

On 9/20/2020 at 10:13 PM, 71chally said:

the obs seat is right down on the deck, there is a recess for that 'Cuban heel' affair. Basically its a double hinge mechanism to allow the seat to tip forwards

I'm, guessing that this is is the hinge mechanism on the Obs. side James?

50375313332_d34b6337ac_z.jpg

 

 

Lunch now though.

:bye:

Tony

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, TheBaron said:

This is really interesting Ian and I understood part of it

CG -think seesaw (teeter totter for those across the pond). Aircraft can have weights fitted fore or aft to achieve balance. 

This applies to Ailerons and elevators too. They must also be weighed and have the CG checked after some modifications.

Some, Concorde springs to mind, pump fuel around the system to maintain balance in flight.

Hopefully that should simplify things a bit?

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6 hours ago, TheBaron said:

James: I'm assuming that it's the launch rail the seat is mounted against that is flush with the deck, with the seat pain itself raised just enough to allow the Obs. some leg room?

 

I'm, guessing that this is is the hinge mechanism on the Obs. side James?

50375313332_d34b6337ac_z.jpg

 

 

Lunch now though.

:bye:

Tony

 

 

 

 

...as in a Ford Capri, there is a small gap but it's definitely a legs forward fit, I could just about get my fingers under the seat pan.

 

I'm struggling to keep up with you now Tony, so apologies if I'm saying things that you know. The pilot's seat is mounted on an elevated and boxed in floor, so you don't see any mechanisms etc.  The boxed in bit hides the u/c bay, control linkages, artificial feel unit and seat lower details. From the obs position you just see a raised floor with side panels.  The pilot's seat has a mounting structure but it is enclosed by this structure.

 

Seats,  if this was me, on XN708 I would do both seats as in that lovely black and white advert and the AP illustrations, without the curved back shield.  My belief is that the shield was added to the pilots seat as a mod at some stage.

Perhaps with XJ481 I would do the obs seat as above, and the pilot's seat with the back shield.  

The squared off Lightning style seats definitely came later in FAW.2 period, the obs seat gaining head box canopy breakers.  Not sure if '481 would have ever had the late style fitted as the trials aircraft didn't go through all the mod states that the service aircraft did.

This just my interpretation of course, but I haven't had time to acquaint myself with manuals etc.

 

Yes, that is the hinge mech, from memory the fwd part of the illustration is the bit attached to the seat, you can see how it is recessed into the floor aswel by the line surrounding it.

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Just gone through my pics of XJ481, stupidly I didn't take any pictures specifically of the pilot's seat, but in a couple of general views it appears to have the original type seat without the curved back shield.

 

 

 

This is my (stripped) pilot's seat, dated 1961,

SVI.jpg~original

Edited by 71chally
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On 9/23/2020 at 7:26 PM, Pete in Lincs said:

CG -think seesaw (teeter totter for those across the pond). Aircraft can have weights fitted fore or aft to achieve balance. 

This applies to Ailerons and elevators too. They must also be weighed and have the CG checked after some modifications.

Some, Concorde springs to mind, pump fuel around the system to maintain balance in flight.

Hopefully that should simplify things a bit?

Crystal Pete. Thanks. :thumbsup2:

That makes an awful lot of sense now.

23 hours ago, 71chally said:

I could just about get my fingers under the seat pan.

As a definition of 'ground truth' that is well nigh unbeatable James!

'X number of @71chally fingers' now becomes a  default unit of measurement on this thread.

23 hours ago, 71chally said:

Perhaps with XJ481 I would do the obs seat as above, and the pilot's seat with the back shield.  

I bought a set of PNs for a FAW.1 online last night James as I wanted some decent (labelled) photographic refs. of the various instrument panels and there was some interesting reading to be had. Regarding seats it has sections on both the Mk.4D (on early production models and the Mk.4DS on later FAW.1s. The only differrences between the two it lists are that the height raising mechanism for the pilot's seat on the earlier 4D is manual, not motorized, and that connection points for the leg restraining cords and personal equipment connector are a different arrangement.

 

Reckon I'll go with your suggestion for '481 with mixed seats, and '708 both later with backshields.

 

One other interesting note from the manual was just how potentially damaging firing the Microcell rockets was - no wonder they abandoned them pretty quickly as both both engine flame disruption and damage to cabin cold air supply are mentioned!

 

Also confirmed was the point  @Pete in Lincs made some time back that the RAT could indeed only be retracted once the aircraft was back on the deck/ground.

 

Armed then with James' measurement from front to rear pressure bulkheads, I set to work earlier on the blocking out openings in the nose areas of both aircraft:

50379825942_b109a44f27_b.jpg

 

For XJ481 this means only the pilot/observer openings on the top, plus observer's window. on XN708 both the radome and inspection panels just aft of it will also be opened up. To cope with using the same set of drawings of the opening on the nose sections of both aircraft, I extracted them from their original component document and set up a new one with only them in it. This should let me focus over the next few weeks on working these areas separetly, knowing that they're still oriented correctly in space in relation to the rest of the aircraft.

 

There wasn't much point taking screenshots of the work in progress as it was pretty unexciting but here is the first draft of the various openings piercing the nose of '708.

C;losed:

50379645096_6c92f01a3a_b.jpg

Opened:

50379645196_0f5e3a69bd_b.jpg

I expect to have to reposition or resize some of these once I begin work on the cockpit interior so these are a first draft just to establish some outer visual relationships prior to delving inside, as a starting point. To help with alignment and size I'd taken some diabolical liberties using a high pass filter on some of the reference imagery that James had kindly supplied early in the build, as a way of knocking back colour distractions and focusing-in on the boundaries defining various features. A useful process.

50379932012_3db59184a9_c.jpg

 

50378948498_abdebfbce6_b.jpg

Looking a bit Gemini space capsule on the inside, though perhaps not inappropriate for the period:

50378948523_a1b05d7cf1_b.jpg

Although the pilot's canopy will be vacformed, I've yet to settle on a preferred method for making transparencies for the observer's windows. Might be a nice touch to have the side window opened inwards on '708?

 

This has been a helluva horrible week at work. Who knew the Fleet Air Arm would turn out a 'wellness' treatment for it though? :laugh:

 

Take care until next time all of you.

:bye:

Tony

 

Addenda. Jesus, my spelling. Apologies. I told you it had been a rough week..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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21 minutes ago, TheBaron said:

This has been a helluva horrible week at work. Who knew the Fleet Air Arm would turn out a 'wellness' treatment for it though?

Modelling. Chill factor 10! It doesn't matter if it's research, plotting on the laptop or actual plastic mangling. Recommended by Doctors. 

 

Those pictures are a worthy of a certain Mr DaVinci.

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On 9/23/2020 at 1:26 PM, Pete in Lincs said:

CG -think seesaw (teeter totter for those across the pond). Aircraft can have weights fitted fore or aft to achieve balance. 

This applies to Ailerons and elevators too. They must also be weighed and have the CG checked after some modifications.

Some, Concorde springs to mind, pump fuel around the system to maintain balance in flight.

Hopefully that should simplify things a bit?

Observing center of gravity limits is critical to the safe operation of any aircraft. Failure to do so, especially an overload causing the aft limit to be exceeded, is the cause of many light civil aircraft accidents.

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15 hours ago, TheBaron said:

Regarding seats it has sections on both the Mk.4D (on early production models and the Mk.4DS on later FAW.1s. The only differrences between the two it lists are that the height raising mechanism for the pilot's seat on the earlier 4D is manual, not motorized, and that connection points for the leg restraining cords and personal equipment connector are a different arrangement.

There were four different types of seat fitted, for both pilot and obs, that's eight types over the service period of the FAW.1.

The principle differences were to do with the Personal Equipment Connectors, oxygen supply systems, air supply for the underwater escape system and the canopies and seats interaction systems, and command ejection.

 

The curved back shield seems to be a retro fit, and to my knowledge didn't result in a new designation.

The big straight, Lightingesque shield seat was a new designation.

 

The seat raising thing would have been coincidental to the seat mod state and probably mentioned in the PNs as part of the routine use of the seat.

The manual seat raising I'm only aware of being fitted to obs seat, it's the long handle on the right hand side of the seat and raises the back and headrest in relation to the seat pan, ie it doesn't raise the seat in the cockpit.

The pilots seat could be raised physically in the cockpit, and this helped for taxying, you see pictures where the pilot's bonedome is higher than the open canopy.  I have only known this as electrically actuated and all the gear is hidden under the raised pilot's floor structure.

 

Pilots Notes are great sources but often they reflect a period of time of a type, depending on AL state and date of issue.

 

 

Just in case you haven't seen these,

https://martin-baker.com/products/mk4-ejection-seat/

 

https://martin-baker.com/products/mk4-ejection-seat/

 

Look like later straight shield Mk4s here on these FAW.1s in 1963

phoca_thumb_l_Fosters%20Jet.jpg

 

Sea Vixen

@Andrew Patterson - Flickr

 

 

 

I just haven't had the time to look at manuals, but I will.

 

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Loving that Andrew Patterson shot - “noddy cap” on the Firestreak, damaged radome, Palouste in full flow.  Echt-60s!

 

I think “Village Teeter-Totter” is your name.  (I had no idea the Americans don’t even even know the correct name for a simple item of playground equipment).

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On 9/24/2020 at 7:33 PM, bigbadbadge said:

Looks fantastic Tony. 

Gracias Christofero - de Havilland are a hard act to follow!

On 9/24/2020 at 7:55 PM, Pete in Lincs said:

Recommended by Doctors. 

webANXcarryondoctor.jpg?quality=60&mode=crop&width=700&height=422

Haarhaarrrharrr...

On 9/24/2020 at 7:55 PM, Pete in Lincs said:

Those pictures are a worthy of a certain Mr DaVinci.

Oh hush Master Peter, you'll turn a chap's head with your flattery... :blush:

 

Big Leo's notebooks notebooks were basically the instruction sheet for a kit the size of the world imo.

 

On 9/24/2020 at 8:26 PM, Space Ranger said:

Observing center of gravity limits is critical to the safe operation of any aircraft. Failure to do so, especially an overload causing the aft limit to be exceeded, is the cause of many light civil aircraft accidents.

Similar effects can be observed carrying a tray of drinks back from the bar just before closing time...

On 9/25/2020 at 1:27 PM, 71chally said:

Pilots Notes are great sources but often they reflect a period of time of a type, depending on AL state and date of issue.

They make a good starting point don't they, but only as part of a larger visual investigation in terms of period accuracy.

On 9/25/2020 at 1:27 PM, 71chally said:

Look like later straight shield Mk4s here on these FAW.1s in 1963

That whole series of shots of Vixens and Scimitar from the Ark from 1963 that Mr. Patterson has up on Flickr are an absolute treasure and one of the first things downloaded in preparation for this thread. Oddly there's one shot in which a Vixen wing-fold mechanism looks a kind of brick red colour:

 

50383153433_563ccb3f63_b.jpg

I'm sure it's been discussed at least once on this forum (poss. in @Ex-FAAWAFU's 1/48 thread?) but I've forgotten if there was a consensus on it.

On 9/25/2020 at 1:27 PM, 71chally said:

I just haven't had the time to look at manuals, but I will.

Crack on old son - I need dimensions for the umbrellas!

50383139183_0798787bf1_z.jpg

On 9/25/2020 at 2:26 PM, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

I think “Village Teeter-Totter” is your name.

:rofl:

On many levels....

 

Also thinking of  a range of ambiguous parts packaged without instructions: 'Airfecks'

 

Here.

I read recently that the RNAS never actually received royal assent and so technically the FAA is still the Royal Flying Corps.

Can this be true?

 

Further work happened earlier in organizing the exterior and interior features into their required structural relationships, assisted by sketching in a rough canopy outline earlier to help triangulating features three-dimensionally around the sides and top of the nose section:

50386078253_129122be08_b.jpg

Prudence (oh ever the stern mistress) dictated that it would be wise to bung the boundary layer fairing on the side as well to help with alignment of the observer's door and windows in relation to their surroundings.

 

Reasonably happy with these in place in a way that can be adjusted later on if required, I then trimmed down the casing of the front wheel well (leaving the walls at a 0.45mm thickness at their narrowest as a trade-off between structural strength and (hopefully :pray:) leaving sufficient room for the Martin Baker siblings to sit on either side of it:

50386952907_dfa5a23909_b.jpg

Also added there  is the starboard cabin floor (yet to be mirrored to provide the port side). The idea is that the  wheel well casing provides a solid central locating feature for the floor and instrument panels on either side to slip onto for mounting purposes - a scheme so daringly elegant and straightforward in theory that it is bound not to be in practice and so will doubtless require revision. I need to add a rail along the fuselage on either side as well for the floor to slide into place along at the correct height as well. Due to the obvious clearance issues involved, the seats will have to be added after the cabin is installed, so I need to come up with a fail-safe mounting solution for them to be accurately placed inside from above:

50386775746_186cf44e5b_b.jpg

Speaking of seats, I previously mentioned finding some nice side/front views of a Mk4 chassis that would be handy to act as a basis for shape and size, so in advance of starting to build any seating I thought it a good idea to add the visuals for these in order to be able to play around with their sizes sizes and positions horizontally/vertically within the fuselage:

Pilot:

50386952952_2e71ca6423_b.jpg

Obs:

50386775811_281bdab184_b.jpg

I guess the latter needs to go a bit lower yet to be the correct number of @71chally fingers above the cabin floor...

 

:bye:

Tony

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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39 minutes ago, TheBaron said:

but I've forgotten if there was a consensus on it.

Probably PX-7, a grease like substance used for anti corrosion porpoises.

 

40 minutes ago, TheBaron said:

'Airfecks'

I wondered when Father Jack would show up. "I love my Brick!" All we need now is Mrs Doyle. What a show that was.

 

There's an awful lot of forward planning and thinking going into this cockpit. It's even giving ME a headache!

 

 

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