hendie Posted June 28, 2020 Share Posted June 28, 2020 wish there was something more I could add other than just WOW! gobsmacked oh, there is! nice hedgehog! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete in Lincs Posted June 29, 2020 Share Posted June 29, 2020 That's not what Dinsdale Piranha said! https://montypython.fandom.com/wiki/Ethel_the_Frog/Piranha_Brothers And, I stand corrected, it was Sky Caps. Doh! (thanks to @KevinK) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbadbadge Posted June 29, 2020 Share Posted June 29, 2020 Cracking update and work Tony All the best Chris 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBaron Posted June 29, 2020 Author Share Posted June 29, 2020 After James' perfectly-timed posting of drawings last evening I had no excuse for taking some time off this morning in order to correct the innacuracies in my designs yesterday. 18 hours ago, hendie said: wish there was something more I could add other than just WOW! gobsmacked Brother there's a symmetry then when I'm reading your threads! 🤜🤛 11 hours ago, Pete in Lincs said: That's not what Dinsdale Piranha said! https://montypython.fandom.com/wiki/Ethel_the_Frog/Piranha_Brothers Harry 'Snapper' Organs: the name makes me laugh like a drain every time! Great link Pete! 7 hours ago, bigbadbadge said: Cracking update and work Tony I appreaciate your support as always Chris. Hope all is well at your end. Firstly then I took one of James' trove into Illustrator in order to colour-code the differences of width between the door sections: I'm not sure how distinct some of those separations will turn out to be at 1/72 but as always, worth a punt to see how far along we can push processes. From here, it was then back to the original sketch in Fusion and dimensioning out the modified widths/lengths: Thence turned back into doors: I've noted that - as with the different lighting arrangements - XJ481 in Martel-era livery does not seem to have the more pronounced diamond-like angled corners to that forward large door that you see in some shots eg. as she appears today at Yeovilton, so will instead reproduce the version that you see in the manual drawing above. I've no reason at this stage to suppose that XN708 differed in this respect. Revised door arrangement: Locating points added inside well for pivots mountings: Ensemble effect with wheel and Microcells: The keen-eyed will notice that - in the above shot especially, the design lacks the space between between the large forward door and front of the well opening that you can see on the actual aircraft (allowing the door to rotate in place); in this instance my hand being forced here by the need to make the doors thick enough (about 0.4mm) to print successful without subsequently warping. If I don't like the visual result after the print test, I may as noted previously resort to some thinner brass equivalents for the doors instead. Not helped of course by Beaker hiding in there: Tony 9 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbadbadge Posted June 29, 2020 Share Posted June 29, 2020 Very nice illustrations Tony, great work, all good here, still working from home , but on a couple of days leave and working in the new Mancave. Hope you are well too fella All the best Chris 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete in Lincs Posted June 29, 2020 Share Posted June 29, 2020 1 hour ago, TheBaron said: Not helped of course by Beaker hiding in there: CAD by Muppet labs. What could go wrong? 1 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbudde Posted June 29, 2020 Share Posted June 29, 2020 1 hour ago, TheBaron said: Not helped of course by Beaker hiding in there: Oh please Tony, print a Beaker for me. Mimmimmimmmimmi....... Cheers 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandy Posted June 29, 2020 Share Posted June 29, 2020 Beautiful artwork Tony, but Oh dear, an upside down Beaker in a Vixen... .I hate to think where the rest of "the crew" may be hiding. Ian 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71chally Posted June 29, 2020 Share Posted June 29, 2020 Absolutely superb rendering Tony, just looking at the CADs is a real feast 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giemme Posted June 29, 2020 Share Posted June 29, 2020 You are going deep into detailing Tony - I love that final render of the front bay area! Ciao 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendie Posted June 29, 2020 Share Posted June 29, 2020 Tony, you could always add a chamfer to the outer edges of the doors to give the appearance of thinner edges, though at 0.4mm, you don't have much room to play with. Cleanup on some of those parts will be interesting. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBaron Posted June 30, 2020 Author Share Posted June 30, 2020 23 hours ago, bigbadbadge said: all good here, still working from home , but on a couple of days leave and working in the new Mancave. Hope you are well too fella Glad to hear it Chris. Thankfully work here has slowed now for July so I can switch off that damned 'available' icon on MS Teams and become the socially-withdrawn hermit I yearn to be. 22 hours ago, Pete in Lincs said: CAD by Muppet labs. What could go wrong? All good here Pete. Absolutely nothing to see. 22 hours ago, bbudde said: Oh please Tony, print a Beaker for me. Mimmimmimmmimmi....... We'll have to see Benedikt: it's a bit early for Christmas. 😄 21 hours ago, 71chally said: Absolutely superb rendering Tony, just looking at the CADs is a real feast I say. Damn' decent of you and so forth. (With results vastly improved by your inestimable input of course). 21 hours ago, giemme said: You are going deep into detailing Tony I can't stop Giorgio! 🤪 You know yourself that once you start really going into such things it becomes like a fractal coastline -always a bit more to be seen, then a bit more and a bit more. Maybe we should change the name from 'modelling' to 'Mandelbrotting'? 16 hours ago, hendie said: ony, you could always add a chamfer to the outer edges of the doors I did just that on the first version and then bloomin' well forgot to turn it back on after alterations i nthe light of James' drawings. Switched-on again now and helping to visually-mitigate the thickness of those edges. 16 hours ago, hendie said: Cleanup on some of those parts will be interesting. Quite. Plan at present is to print oleo, wheel and doors all separately as you'd expect. The oleo presents the biggest challenge in terms of orientation & supports of course but I reckon some careful planning can ameliorate this. (You've got to love that level of over-confidence haven't you? ) No Cadish behaviour today but some preparatory research instead for the next phase of adding involving adding the various excresences to the wing. In terms of XN708, this means paying attention to the wingfold at an early stage, as I soon came to realize that the fold itself isn't the nice neat symmetrical split along the chord line that I'd once fondly imagined: Due to the nature of the folding mechanism there's an awful awful lot of Baroque going on inside the wing halves at that point with all that bulging and recessing and cutbacks (just staring at the operating mechanism drawings in the manual makes me think Borges was a design consultant on the aircraft). Because when it's closed it looks like a simple straighforward fairing along top and bottom of the wing to contain the machinery, and by contrast when it's open the angled nature of the wingfold obscures much of what's happening along the fold, I simply hadn't noticed the resulting variation of profiles going on in three-dimensions. To work this out more explicitly I (roughly) mapped the main parts of the mechanism onto the aerofoil profile and then related this to the way the aircraft skin splits up along this fold: Items 1&3 are the rear and front hinges, item 2 being the wingfold linkage itself. 4 is what the manual refers to as a 'folding trough', with 5&6 being swivel couplings for the fuel system. The two main things I took away from this exercise are that the hinges and linkage necessitate cutouts in the shape of the inboard upper fairing, that are in turn covered by those small doors outlined along the fold above when the wing is lowered. The 'break' of the fold line itself (in terms of how it looks along the upper wing surfaces) being an angular rather than straight affair, as shown by the bold black line above. By contrast, the corresponding 'break' along the underside of the wing appears a straightfoward symmetrical one. I'm not rushing into any more than that today as due to that visible difference in that 'break' top and botton; I need to look at how I'm going to reproduce that in Fusion, now that I know I can't do it as a single operation in terms of a nice straight cut along the chord line. Thinking cap on. Tony 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete in Lincs Posted June 30, 2020 Share Posted June 30, 2020 1 hour ago, TheBaron said: You know yourself that once you start really going into such things it becomes like a fractal coastline -always a bit more to be seen, then a bit more and a bit more. Are you by chance related to Slartibartfast? 1 hour ago, TheBaron said: with all that bulging and recessing and cutbacks Why was I thinking Julian and Sandy at this point? OOH! In't he bold! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendie Posted June 30, 2020 Share Posted June 30, 2020 1 hour ago, TheBaron said: just staring at the operating mechanism drawings in the manual makes me think Borges was a design consultant on the aircraft) That statement plus the top left image in your mood-board thingy just gave me a mental image of Victor Borges & H.R. Giger sitting behind a huge drawing board, giggling together and one of them saying to the other "just wait till they get a load of this..." 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete in Lincs Posted June 30, 2020 Share Posted June 30, 2020 My favourite Victor Borges sketch... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJiHlt8NRqk 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex-FAAWAFU Posted June 30, 2020 Share Posted June 30, 2020 I assume the ‘folding trough’ contained electrics etc that needed protection from Jack’s size 10s. Nav lights, outer pylons, aileron control runs...? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71chally Posted June 30, 2020 Share Posted June 30, 2020 (edited) Yes, the folding trough protected the wiring etc, looks a bit like a gun magazine feed channel. The fwd to aft wing fold fairings are pretty complicated, I think the idea was to neatly fair the hinges at the top of the spar and the latches at the spar bottom, they, along with that hefty fold mech arm are very close to the wing surfaces. You can look at many pictures and still get befuddled by it all. This picture (hugely magnifiable) illustrates quite nicely what Tony means, you can see the upper fold fairing cutting in and out between the various folding/hingey bits. The lower wing fold fairing is relatively feature free. The folding trough is clearly seen aswel. Sea Vixen wing fold by joolsgriff, on Flickr BTW it's something else that Airfix appeared to get right with their kit, so just holler if you want pics. Edited June 30, 2020 by 71chally 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBaron Posted July 1, 2020 Author Share Posted July 1, 2020 On 6/30/2020 at 6:44 PM, Pete in Lincs said: Are you by chance related to Slartibartfast? I can't a fjord that kind of lifestyle.... On 6/30/2020 at 6:44 PM, Pete in Lincs said: Why was I thinking Julian and Sandy at this point? OOH! In't he bold! Oooh 🦴a! : 22 hours ago, hendie said: That statement plus the top left image in your mood-board thingy just gave me a mental image of Victor Borges & H.R. Giger sitting behind a huge drawing board, giggling together and one of them saying to the other "just wait till they get a load of this..." Genuine guffaws at that Alan. I guess it's too late now for Victor to do a late spot at the bar? 22 hours ago, Pete in Lincs said: My favourite Victor Borges sketch... - which I'd never seen Pete. Absolutely superb - what timing and grace he had with that audience. Made my evening. 21 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said: I assume the ‘folding trough’ contained electrics etc that needed protection from Jack’s size 10s. Nav lights, outer pylons, aileron control runs...? I errr....it.....wait - he's better at it than me 😁 ⤵️: 20 hours ago, 71chally said: Yes, the folding trough protected the wiring etc, looks a bit like a gun magazine feed channel. Having slept on the wingfold problem last night I'd worked out how to deal with the assymetric top/bottom nature of the fairings (don't build it as a single design but construct the fairings separately from the wing first in order to cut out the required regions, only then joining them to the sliced wing afterwards, gas mark 10 for 15 minutes...). Caught myself just in time though from slicing through the wing first thing as I remembered that '481 isn't going to have a wingfold so its wing needs to remain unaffected!. Equally important,, there are certain features common to both wings that I need to add to the existing one first (before producing two versions from it) in order to avoid having to do the same set of jobs twice to both wings i.e. the ailerons and main undercarriage for starters: The aileron was a simple enough job to separate out from the wing shape by virtue of drawing out the aileron profile onto an image plane above the wing and then using this to cut along the seam between wing and control surface: I'll come back to detailing the leading/trailing edges of those two parts later. Following the methodology used on the nosegear, I established a profile for the overall area of the wheel wells doors: First use of this profile was to produce the outline of the doors in the underside of the wing: In terms of producing those doors first, this is by necessity a two-step operation in that the undersides here aren't a flat plane but you've got instead to deal with both the changing angle and camber of that wing surface along with the front extent of the boom. Firstly using the profile as a cookie-cutter to cut down into the wing about 1mm, then making another sketch along the edges of the resulting piece to produce a second horizontal slice that follows as faithfully as possible the changing innner profile of the doors too: I'll need to vary and deepen those inner profiles in places of course to match the reaactual doors when I deal with contouring them to accomadate the legs/wheel in the next session, but this gives the general idea at this stage. With that done it was a case of reusing the same profile to cut out the negative spaces of the wheel wells themselves (doors transparent): Transparencies reversed to show wheel wells in underside: As per the nosegear, it probably makes most sense to build a wheel/tyre (35"x10"x17" Dunlop tubeless) and associated leggery to keep the wells and doors honest when detailing them further. Our dishwasher has megalomaniacally decided it wants to wash the entire kitchen floor now rather than just dishes so we have to spend some time tomorrow purchasing a replacement (it's lasted over a decade and been repaired twice so can't complain). With that and having to clear out Steptoe's yard time may be limited tomorrow but nevertheless I hope to keep momentum going here. You ever get those stages of a build where things seem to 'flow'? A lot of it's to do with preparation I know but nonetheless am enjoying the continuing process of discovery involved in making this aircraft. Tony 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71chally Posted July 1, 2020 Share Posted July 1, 2020 Here's the Airfix wing break, cross checking with APs and Flaggs overhead pic, like so many other little details they appear to have captured this correctly. The middle fairing 'extension' that covers the fold mechanism doesn't extend the full width of that fairing, unlike the hinge 'extensions'. Very minor though. Airfix Sea Vixen by James Thomas, on Flickr So I it looks like you have it right Tony. I could just send you the kit and you could 3D capture it and downscale - but that wouldn't be half as much fun! Apologies for the horribleness adjacent to the boom, I had a massive curing issue! 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71chally Posted July 1, 2020 Share Posted July 1, 2020 (edited) Watch those main gear doors Tony! https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/model/De Havilland DH.110 Sea Vixen FAW1/? Superb work, truly mind boggling and blowing! Edited July 1, 2020 by 71chally 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBaron Posted July 1, 2020 Author Share Posted July 1, 2020 56 minutes ago, 71chally said: Watch those main gear doors Tony! Ahh dammit - no wiggly cutouts on the ouboard door for a FAW.1! 🤦♂️ What a rookie mistake for de Havilland to have made.... Back to the drawing board to straighten.... 📐 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71chally Posted July 1, 2020 Share Posted July 1, 2020 (edited) The cutouts were introduce to give the doors clearance for the Red Top missile fins, applicable to the FAW.2 of course. The main wheels changed aswel, but before your time period, and possibly only on the XJ serials. It's funny the things you can miss, guilty of it myself. de Havilland Sea Vixen FAW.1 XJ481 by James Thomas, on Flickr Edited July 1, 2020 by 71chally 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Ranger Posted July 1, 2020 Share Posted July 1, 2020 1 hour ago, TheBaron said: Our dishwasher has megalomaniacally decided it wants to wash the entire kitchen floor now rather than just dishes Don't use liquid detergent ('washing-up liquid") instead of the proper stuff! As a bachelor I once did that because I was out of the proper stuff. Bad choice. But after that my lady guests remarked on how nice and clean my kitchen floor was! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbudde Posted July 1, 2020 Share Posted July 1, 2020 On 6/30/2020 at 7:20 PM, TheBaron said: it's a bit early for Christmas. From what I saw , it 'll be 2030 with Beaker in the kitchen. Am I right? Cheers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBaron Posted July 1, 2020 Author Share Posted July 1, 2020 1 hour ago, 71chally said: It's funny the things you can miss, Not 'arf it ain't! I reckon that underside FAW.2 plan photograph I've been using as a primary reference for shape in Fusion gave me tunnel vision even though the evidence is there to see in loads of other refs. Updated now to something more fit for purpose: I'll add the blister to it tomorrow.... 1 hour ago, 71chally said: The cutouts were introduce to give the doors clearance for the Red Top missile fins Extraordinary! I spent ages trying to puzzle what such singular notches might be for but ordnance never sprang to mind! My supposition that it was a bottle-opener for the deck crew beers cruelly wide of the mark then. 😁 1 hour ago, Space Ranger said: Don't use liquid detergent ('washing-up liquid") instead of the proper stuff! Only S. Pellegrino and Eau de Soir soap chide the bone china of Maison Baron to cleanliness Michael. One simply must maintain standards. 26 minutes ago, bbudde said: From what I saw , it 'll be 2030 with Beaker in the kitchen. Am I right? Only if I put a rush on it... 2 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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