Sea Vixen FAW.1x2

[perdu]

As a child of the Jet Age my restoration priorities would differ but it is their small cash pot...

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

Mine too, probably, but it’s about how much bang you get for your buck.  

 

I was at the Culdrose Air Day when “Goaty” (Chris Götke) had his engine failure and crash-landed the T20, winning his AFC in the process.  This was also around the time that they took on the Vixen, and talking to the Historics guys afterwards, the figures they quoted for ££s per flying hour for a jet vs the same for a piston engine were eye-watering; the difference is huge, because the systems are so much more complex, even for a relatively simple jet like the Sea Hawk - and of course you need the systems to work to get CAA clearance to fly the thing at all.  Replacing a Centaurus or a Pegasus is not exactly cheap, but it can be done.  Now try an engine change after you’ve FOD’d an Avon, as happened a couple of years ago.  Ouch.

 

Furies and Swordfish don’t have ejection seats.  Simpler hydraulics (and it was hydraulics failure that led to the Vixen crash landing), flying controls, brakes, avionics...  They have removed the radar from XP924, because otherwise some poor bugger would have to try to keep it working (either that or it’s just dead weight).

 

The Navy Wings model of having Associates like the Wasp, the Gazelle and the fab Historic Helicopters guys (where the whole financial burden doesn’t fall on Navy Wings) is probably the way ahead... but the Vixen used to be privately owned and run, and the guy had to sell it because it was costing so much.

 

After all, Navy Wings also have 2 Sea Harrier FA2s in a hangar at Yeovilton, plus an F4.  The Shars are (or could easily be made) taxi-able, like the dummy deck cabs at CU... but don’t hold your breath that you will ever see them fly, because the cost would be HUGE.

 

See also Vulcan to the Sky, and ask yourself why it is now a static airframe.

Edited July 18, 2019 by Ex-FAAWAFU

[perdu]

Sadly all too true, and not unknown to me but...

 

 

I always throw spare money-mass into the buckets but I am seriously considering a small stipend too

 

Always worth it I know, but, pension limits incur quickly

[TheBaron]

On 7/15/2019 at 11:40 AM, perdu said:

I filed huge amounts of plastic off the tail booms on my Sea Vixen, should have saved it to put in a bottle of Gloop..

I've no doubt I'll be in a position to send you some over in the fullness of time Bill.

On 7/15/2019 at 3:12 PM, limeypilot said:

I do NOT fancy being underneath any aircraft releasing flechettes! 

Or indeed flushettes!

https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/local-news/frozen-pee-falling-planes-smashing-2691551

In this picture one seems to have fallen upon Boris Johnson eating a pizza box in his bedroom.

On 7/15/2019 at 5:36 PM, mdauben said:

I look forward to seeing how this build progresses. 

I hope you are a patient man...

On 7/15/2019 at 7:21 PM, Pete in Lincs said:

Now look here, I've been sitting outside with the Dray on tickover for so long I've got to go and refuel! 

Put the nosebag on and save the manure for my roses.

On 7/15/2019 at 11:01 PM, corsaircorp said:

this B-29 has been converted as an HUF relay for the television

I'm guessing the aerial up the rear was for the adult channels?

On 7/16/2019 at 7:49 AM, Spookytooth said:

Well , it`s thirsty work Perdu LOL.

There are times on here I wonder how many people are sat in their local reading the forum.

Staggered on holiday to order a pint of light & bitter only to be told by barman this was not possible as:  'We don't do bottles of light ale anymore.'

When did this become a thing?

#shockedandupset

On 7/16/2019 at 5:32 PM, Martian Hale said:

Well I needed to keep hydrated, I find your Earth climate a bit on the hot side, even in what you laughingly pass off as winter and there's nothing worse than a shrivelled up tentacle. Try sunbathing on Mars at any time of the year and see how far you get!

 

Martian 👽

I have a map of your homeland above my desk as I type this....

 

On 7/17/2019 at 7:56 AM, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

Navy Wings clearly still intend to return her to flight eventually,

They've some great footage over on their Yt channel of an engine removal that will come in most handy...

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOMxh_WWx2UDrHqlle8lg-A/videos

Didn't realize about the three Stringbags!

On 7/17/2019 at 12:29 PM, perdu said:

I am looking into joining NW

You have spurred me into doing exactly that just now Bill and becoming a member.

I should have joined before this....

On 7/17/2019 at 1:59 PM, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

Sadly, it is simply a fact that in the modern regulatory era flying vintage jets is a lot more complicated and expensive than flying vintage piston engine aircraft.

A grim but true reflection regarding the exponential complexity of technology - an inversion of Moore's Law when it comes to preservation of the past. 

7 hours ago, perdu said:

I always throw spare money-mass into the buckets but I am seriously considering a small stipend too

 

Always worth it I know, but, pension limits incur quickly

Call me a raving Marxist but someone on a pension should not be having to fund anything imho Bill.

You've paid your dues already mate...

 

I can't remember if it was here or over on Annie's thread that I mentioned a discovery regarding the backstory to XN708.

 

If you recall, my interest (shallow phrase given the nature and circumstances but there you go) in building XN708 was due to my eye being caught by this accident out in Lyme Bay in a list of Dorset crashes, and subsequently mulling over the combination of military fatality with holiday destination. Having stared at that horizon where the plane went down and swum so often in those waters where it lies you can't ignore the tingling realization of proximity to something very real and tragic that took place (many people can say this about many such other juxtapositions in their own lives of course). 

 

The decision to build this aircraft was just due to the way it leapt out of me from the listings due to this combination of personal factors, along with the fact of it being a 'peacetime' accident of the kind usually lost amidst the details of history. There was so little online about the accident beyond the few lines generally listed that I didn't think there was anything else to be gleaned from further research. How wrong was I? The crew who died in the crash out at sea that night were Lt Michael J.W. Durrant RN. & Lt Basil A.Last R, and it transpires that Lt Durrant's daughter is Sabine Durrant, an author who has also over time been an editor at both the Sunday Times and The Guardian newspapers. I only found this out indirectly from a brief line on a website by Lionel Smith mentioning and article about Sabine Durrant and her father in the Daily Telegraph magazine from 2004.

 

Not being able to locate an archive of this article I did some further digging and found out that she'd published a chapter on trying to find out more on her father's crash in XN708 in this book of memoirs from 2004 (which incidentally confirms it was a LEPUS attack and not a Glow-Worm one, as the Smith page moots...):

This arrived in the post this morning so have only skimmed through a few pages so far. Interesting to note @Ex-FAAWAFU that when she visited Yeovilton to try and find out more about the crash report, it was David Hobbs who sat down and took her through the (scant) official details.  Will report back after reading the chapter in more detail but expect it to be a harrowing combination of Cold War training pressures, high aircrew fatalities, and official neglect.

 

Found this terrifying information also in Charles M anning's Fly Navy: The View From the Cockpit 1945-2000:

 

I mean Jesus Wept. And then flying these aircraft at night. With blinding flares.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Spookytooth]

6 minutes ago, TheBaron said:

Staggered on holiday to order a pint of light & bitter only to be told by barman this was not possible as:  'We don't do bottles of light ale anymore.'

When did this become a thing?

#shockedandupset

It would probably be the same for a Brown Split too nowadays Tony.

 

Simon.

[perdu]

My second closest local keeps M&B Mild in order to still be able to offer 'a brown and mild' to his customers

 

I supped a pint of M&B during the winter hot spell we enjoyed earlier this year

 

Very pleasant too, a return to the Good/Grim Old Days for a sip in the sun

 

( Next pint was a cold Peroni, funny things taste buds)

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

1 hour ago, TheBaron said:

Didn't realize about the three Stringbags!

Oh yes.  Mk.1 W5856.  Mk.2 LS326 (those two are currently close to or actually airworthy). Mk.3 NF389 (“awaiting rebuild”).

 

 

As for Death in the Dark in a Vixen, they were doing things in a transonic jet at very low level over the sea... but in an aircraft whose avionics were still 1950s at best.  The RADALT is a GO:NO GO item at night in a helicopter... but these guys were relying on a BARALT with a monster lag and/or error in exactly the conditions when they needed it most.  

 

See also Simon Scott-Thomas, the Dad of Kristin, the actress.  Killed in a Vixen when she was 6, in pretty similar circumstances to your tale.  [Her Mum re-married, his best mate - Simon Idiens, another RN jet pilot (indeed he was the Simon of “Simon’s Sircus” fame); he was killed in a Phantom 6 years later.  Fate can be mighty cruel sometimes]

[TheBaron]

On 7/18/2019 at 7:12 PM, Spookytooth said:

It would probably be the same for a Brown Split too nowadays Tony.

One trembles to enquire as to the nature of this thing of which you speak Simon....

On 7/18/2019 at 7:43 PM, perdu said:

 

I supped a pint of M&B during the winter hot spell we enjoyed earlier this year

Used to enjoy a Light & Bitter in  younger years due to bar staff frequently slopping more than the required half pint of bitter into the pint glass before handing the accompanying bottle of light ale over. On occasion in the 80s I may have received 1-2% extra beer per pint in certain favoured pubs, multiplied by say an average 6-8 pints in a session at twice a week, adding up to the equivalent of a free pint each month.

We lived hard and glorious back then.

#feckthesystem

On 7/18/2019 at 7:43 PM, perdu said:

Next pint was a cold Peroni,

Cold Peroni + marinated olives = bliss!

23 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

Mk.1 W5856.

I've a digital copy of this documentary if of any interest:

23 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

The RADALT is a GO:NO GO item at night in a helicopter... but these guys were relying on a BARALT with a monster lag and/or error in exactly the conditions when they needed it most.  

I believe I actually understand this (re: distinction between radio/barometric) and no less the horrifying for it.

 

Pretty much part of what Sabine Durrant's memoir constructs. I stayed up reading it all last night. A melancholic mosaic of high loss/fatality rates, pressures to perform, the dehumanizing function of Cold War priorities. It was however heartening to find that Durrant discovered the son of the Observer, Basil Last, was independently investigating the (scant) details of his father's death too. Only a limited search carried out after crash, official report stating aircraft lost due to either  disorientation or aircraft malfunction or distraction of pilot during manoeuvre. Take your pick.

 

As you mention, this was not an isolated incident:

23 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

See also Simon Scott-Thomas, the Dad of Kristin, the actress.  Killed in a Vixen when she was 6, in pretty similar circumstances to your tale.

Durrant discovered a photo of her father Michael alongside Simon Scott-Thomas in fact.

Oddly enough you told me about the latter long before I joined the forum and met you!

https://falkeeinsgreatplanes.blogspot.com/2015/05/890-nas-sea-vixen-faw-1s-on-ark-royals.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Terry1954]

31 minutes ago, TheBaron said:

Oddly enough you told me about the latter long before I joined the forum and met you!

https://falkeeinsgreatplanes.blogspot.com/2015/05/890-nas-sea-vixen-faw-1s-on-ark-royals.html

 

Great to see that @Ex-FAAWAFU's analytical prose on naval aviation is quoted on someone else's blog! There is a wealth of useful detail in that single summary of operations on Ark Royal back in the early sixties. Always did hold the view that EDSG straight from the tin/pot/bottle was normally too dark when trying to achieve "scale colour" and weathering/fading. Great summary Crisp.

 

You are certainly gathering much relevant material for those two Sea Vixen's Tony, along with a host of other "BM relevant" banter!

 

Terry

 

 

[DaveWilko]

On 7/17/2019 at 12:29 PM, perdu said:

 

 

Sea Hawk at Cosford, are they using it as an instructional or simply in safe storage?

One believes that the Sea Hawk is tucked away at Shawbury awaiting a large handful of cash,if one remembers correctly,to sort out the damage

to the rear fuselage internal structure caused by hot jet efflux leaking from the bi-furcated jet pipes.

[perdu]

Sad

 

But obviously I need to donate pension money to a new cause...

[HOUSTON]

Look forward to the Build. 

 

 

Are We there yet? 

[DaveWilko]

One remembered about this site,so one isn't sure whether any of our Sea Vixen buffs have ever seen these pages below,

they are a very informative but very,very sobering read about the exploits and losses of the Sea Vixen force.

 

The loss statistics(nearly 40%) compared to the airframes built or converted is eye opening.

 

Those wishing to view more than the public pages can register to do so:

 

https://www.seavixen.org/

[Terry1954]

Great site that @DaveWilko, thanks.

 

Terry

[TheBaron]

Apropos of nothing I decided to have a little play around with Fusion 360  this evening to look at the feasibility of building some Avon engines.

 

I don't use CAD software for 3D work as a rule so this is a new modelling environment for me: it is however a surprisingly intuitive package and lent itself to knocking out a crude approximation of the main pipe shapes within a few mins:

These are just quick learning exercises to limber up with the various tools that I'll need to be proficient in when designing the real thing for output - couldn't resist a quick render in architectural bronze though:

A combination of 3D printing and PE for the fan blades looks like they'll be a runner for producing the engines. I'll come back to designing these for real when Annie's finished.

 

[CJP]

Hi Tony - these two builds are going to turn in to THE reference build for Sea Vixens - watching with interest to see what you do to beat the kits into shape - particularly the High Planes one👍

 

CJP

[CedB]

Nice CADdery Tony!

 

I've so far failed in my attempts to get shots of the coal hole... the Vixens at Boscombe and Newark both have broken cables and the team at Midland broke theirs last week trying to open it for us. They did have this though:

 

 

 

 

Any good?

 

Are you considering posing the nose open like this?

 

 

If so the album on my Flickr that has that photo in also has some close up shots of the inside

[TheBaron]

11 hours ago, CJP said:

Hi Tony - these two builds are going to turn in to THE reference build for Sea Vixens - watching with interest to see what you do to beat the kits into shape - particularly the High Planes one👍

Early doors yet CJ - let's hope I haven't bitten off more than I can chew!

 

I'm lucky to have a number of experts keeping an eye on things here with vastly superior knowledge about matters Vixonian than mine own, so that is a comfort/terror also...

3 hours ago, CedB said:

I've so far failed in my attempts to get shots of the coal hole... the Vixens at Boscombe and Newark both have broken cables and the team at Midland broke theirs last week trying to open it for us. 

Taken in total that sounds very suspicious Ced. I bet each one has a small wizened modeller locked inside grimly holding on to the door and tutting 'This looks nothing like the Frog moulding'...

3 hours ago, CedB said:

They did have this though:

Wow! They let you leaf through the manual on open display?

3 hours ago, CedB said:

Any good?

Not 'arf! (Fluff Freeman voice)

That second shot is perfect as although I've got digital copies of both the maintenance manuals and parts catalogues for the FAW.2, for some reason the scans of the cockpit layouts don't show up the blue of the diagram, only the black lines. John (canberrakid) was also kind enough some time ago to post me some bits of the FAW.1 manual to account for those few critical regions of difference between the two marks.

 

As to the layout in the coal hole for the Martel trials one, I'm guessing that will look exactly like the reference materials I don't have and which may no longer even be in existence.

3 hours ago, CedB said:

If so the album on my Flickr that has that photo in also has some close up shots of the inside

Bait duly taken. 

Hook line and sinker.

Excellent photos btw Ced.

 

[TheBaron]

Weather absolutely rotten after work and as dusk fell, we were treated to another power cut. Out with the candles and some contemplative reading:

Second power cut this month. The last one was a bunch of villains knocking over the cashpoint inside the local Tesco - to make sure no alarms would go off they took out the local power grid down one of the manholes.  Anyway, this one didn't last two long which was just as well as I've been hankering to start putting background research for here on a firm footing. As curtain-raiser for this I took all years of concert tickets and holiday stuff that had been accumulating on the noticeboard in the studio and began putting up the first visual references for the build:

The large cutaway of a FAW.1 is a period reproduction from Flight magazine of 1960 which is a handy and concise breakdown of the main structural features: this will be a useful guide to establishing what viable level of detail needs building at this scale and in which region of the aircraft. Flight did two excellent articles on the Sea Vixen in the early days; one article on the early development and testing of the aircraft in 1957, and the 1960 article, upon it entering service. Both contain a lot of highly valuable background on both structure and the various mechanisms involved in operating it in flight.

 

When it comes to actually organizing some of the several hundred reference photographs and maintenance drawings I'm calling upon here, I've begun using a handy little piece of software called 'Pureref':

The software lets you build an infinitely scalable image plane in which you can create mosaics of images (here organized thematically); these you can click to make individual images fullscreen and then click again to return to the overall map. This screen of image mosaics can be scrolled vertically and horizontally and zoomed in and out of so makes for a far more intuitive and friendly way of sifting through and comparing multiple views, following lines of enquiry &etc. than say Lightroom. They're asking €5 for it which I had no hesitation paying here. (Usual disclaimer that I've no financial interest in the company!)

 

Ced - you might recognize the radar shots? (Thanks )

 

Anyhow; tonight I thought it time to start working out some datum points to establish any likely modifications to the two kits concerned, so taped the fuselages together for a comparison:

Both of these display the characteristic bulge under the nose for the Microcell rocket packs ( I think in the case of the FAW.2, that Microcell shape was retained faired in without the actual rocket launchers  - open to correction on this of course....) These will only be present on XN708, XJ481 - being an early production model - didn't have them.

 

All very well  just looking at these two side by side but what about beginning to establish some kind of accurate baseline? I was lucky in discussions many moons ago in the initial Cold War thread that started all this up that our dear friend @71chally shared some latterday shots of XJ481 at Yeovilton, including a nice side on view of the nose from starboard, from which I was able to make an outline drawing:

First thing I wanted to check this against was the accuracy of the GA drawings in the FAW.1 maintenance manual (which @canberra kid kindly shared in that other thread, in order to see if those could provide a decent reference for plan and side views &etc:

Kind of....at least pretty good  in terms of fuselage height, but canopy position and nose shape of the GA drawing give concern in placement and proportion.

 

A  check of drawing against the Frog offering immediately displays the well-known nose issue:

Fuselage from canopy back not looking too bad in height, though check the difference in size and placement of air intakes on the kit.

 

Same procedure applied to the High Planes offering:

Again, fuselage shape not too bad at all from canopy backwards, intakes much better positioned than Frog, but definitely makes the case for both aircraft to be getting new hooters! This latter point not an issue anyway due to XJ481 needing a Martel trials nose from scratch, and XN708 having a radar reveal.

 

Finally, in order to see if the drawings in the Warpaint volume on this aircraft can be trusted, another overlay:

I would have to call that a pretty damn good match in general terms!

 

It would be really helpful if the overhead view in the Warpaint volume could be trusted regarding wings shaped &etc. Lacking any direct underneath or overhead photographs to knock up drawings from I'm going to have to spend some time staring at the closest photos I've got to such views and then comparing these with Warpaint, the kits, and GA drawings from the manuals to work out 'most likely to meet the approval of Britmodellees' candidate outlines for those parts of the aircraft.

 

Thanks for looking in.

Tony

 

 

 

 

[CedB]

Ah, "an infinitely scalable image plane in which you can create mosaics of images (here organized thematically)" - the difference between a model maker like yourself and a kit basher like me; I have a few pictures of the pretty bits that I might replicate on the kit if I can be bothered.

 

I hope the radar photos come in handy - open nose then is it?

 

I also hope the power comes back on soon - don't keep us in the dark  

[canberra kid]

Hi Tony

I've found these two if they are of any use?

John

[Terry1954]

Great to see this one taking off now Tony. Inspired by your original intro to this thread a while back I invested in the High Planes kit myself.

 

Will continue to follow this very closely.

 

Terry

[Martian]

1 hour ago, Terry1954 said:

Inspired by your original intro to this thread a while back I invested in the High Planes kit myself.

You are going to be so sorry!

 

Sympathetic of Mars 👽

[rob85]

1 hour ago, Terry1954 said:

Great to see this one taking off now Tony. Inspired by your original intro to this thread a while back I invested in the High Planes kit myself.

 

Will continue to follow this very closely.

 

Terry

Especially in two - three year when you compare your build to Tony’s 😃

 

glad to see you’ve started tucking into this one, it will no doubt be a great watch!(as in to look at, I know your not building a watch)

 

Rob

Edited December 10, 2019 by rob85

[Terry1954]

2 hours ago, Martian Hale said:

You are going to be so sorry!

Well I like a challenge, and in any case, my other Sea Vixen is the Xtrakit.......... is that like having one of those signs in the back window of your car saying "my other car is a Porsche"?

 

1 hour ago, rob85 said:

Especially in two - three year when you compare your build to Tony’s

Something about chalk and cheese there I think.....

 

Terry