Sea Vixen FAW.1x2

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

Amazing stuff, Tony.

 

Your love of Russian film was probably matched by the younger Crisp’s adoration of Russian literature.  Driving up to see my Mum today I was delighted to find a programme on Radio 4 discussing probably my all-time favourite novel, Bulgakov’s masterpiece The Master & Margerita - a book I have adored since I was about 18, and which I have read many times.   It was particularly interesting to hear two Russians giving the “Homo Sovieticus” viewpoint, explaining quite why it was such a subversive book (& thus never published during his lifetime).  Like all good discussions like that, it made me want to dig it out and read my battered copy yet again.

[TheBaron]

23 hours ago, LostCosmonauts said:

Good idea on fixing one dimension for scaling - I have been struggling with that and reverted to adjusting sections in Inkscape and then importing rather than doing it in Fusion

It's almost mandatory for a job like this I think Alistair in terms of being able to tie pieces of known dimension together accurately for lofting purposes - my initial attempts prior to this feel embarrassingly clumsy already!

 

20 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

Your love of Russian film was probably matched by the younger Crisp’s adoration of Russian literature.  Driving up to see my Mum today I was delighted to find a programme on Radio 4 discussing probably my all-time favourite novel, Bulgakov’s masterpiece The Master & Margerita - a book I have adored since I was about 18, and which I have read many times. 

Shamefully I had not yet read that Crisp so felt obliged to order a copy straight after reading the synopsis; should be here later in the week. Thanks for making me aware of it.

 

Grim day weatherwise so spent the day hunkering down with the famille watching films and cooking, though prior to Horlicks last evening I did get ready some material for the next phase of the outer wing camber:

Although clearly not intended as an engineering drawing, the dimensions in the page of John Derry's notes on this section of the aircraft (that James has so kindly shared previously) will come in handy when dimensioning the fence itself from brass later on. I had to put that historical image into the design temporarily just to signify the knowledge embodied in the aircraft that was gained with such danger by Derry and others.

 

From squinting at both this and various photographs of the underside of the outer wing, this is the best representation of the drooped outline I've been able to come up with so far:

Darker line is the revised droop to the nose.

At 1/72 that resulting  concavity in the underside won't be overly-prominent: it seems to run out to rib 13, whereupon y the outer tip of the wing is a separate section, the front part of it  housing the recessed light, and rear section forming the outermost 'shoulder' of the aileron. I'll have a closer look at the manual drawings of that section  later to see if I'm overlooking anything whilst in the vicinity.

 

Edit: I should have added the obvious rider to ignore the wingfold backing image in the above! I haven't gone mad, it's just the original one corroborating the RAE104 aefofoil shape and I'm too lazy to look for the bare graphic...

 

 

 

[Aardvark]

On 2/22/2020 at 6:08 PM, TheBaron said:

I believe I may have met a number of domestically-based such 'art critics' when visiting the Soviet Union in 1988 on a university trip, during our time in (then) Leningrad and Moscow. Being a fine art course, were taken round all the usual sights like the Hermitage as well as the cruiser Aurora and so forth, often encountering familiar faces who seemed to be in - but not apparently staying at - the same hotels as us (do all Ruassian hotels have the bar on the top floor?). It was pretty obvious they had some official security function and as we were a -shall we say - raucous group from Belfast, we invited them over to our table to join us for drinks on a couple of occasions, just to witness their abrupt exit from the bar (Usually replaced within minutes by another watcher)

Most likely it was another KGB department responsible for escorting foreign delegations and tourists.  It is quite possible they collected files on each of your group and it is quite possible somewhere in the KGB archives the file is gathering dust on you.

 

On 2/22/2020 at 6:08 PM, TheBaron said:

(do all Ruassian hotels have the bar on the top floor?)

I think no.  When I was in Abkhazia, then in the hotel, which was called "Abkhazia", where we lived and where foreigners could live, the bar was really on the roof, from there a good view of the Black Sea opened, but the same view was from the window of our room.  But at the same time, the hotels of my city built under the USSR have restaurants on the ground floor. B.w. I don't know but probably local hotel "GreatBritan" generally does not have a restaurant, but by local standards it is very small and very old, probably they did not dare to demolish it during the USSR because Chekhov and Paustovsky lived there.

 

On 2/22/2020 at 6:08 PM, TheBaron said:

Being the last years of communism

There was no justice for communism in the USSR ... unless in science fiction films .... officially there was socialism.  However, some researchers say that socialism ended after the death of Stalin.  All this is a complex theoretical question, but let's just say that it was a society with high social guarantees and confidence in tomorrow.

On 2/22/2020 at 6:08 PM, TheBaron said:

Being the last years of communism there was an odd vibe to the place - Gorbachev had just closed down most of the 'official' street bars and kiosks selling vodka to cut down on drunkenness but there were always guys hanging around the hotel entrances who would taken you to the unofficial places - so long as you paid for the booze all night. 

gorbachev anti-alcogol company in reality was very no effective, when it became impossible to buy vodka, people just started making moonshine. Naturally, the state, which so did not have enough money, began to receive them even less because a shadow circulation of alcohol arose. In Crimea, even ancient vineyards were cut down under the pretext of the fight against alcoholism.

On 2/22/2020 at 6:08 PM, TheBaron said:

Many were young men flogging off military kit like hats and belts to tourists

Street trade for foreigners called “farcovka” was probably spread since the beginning of the 60s, the police, the KGB, and the probably OBKhSS fought against it, but by the end of the 80s control was weakening.

On 2/22/2020 at 6:08 PM, TheBaron said:

and a couple we ended up boozing with showed us the head injuries they'd given themselves with hammers in order to  avoid getting sent to Afghanistan. Extraordinarily sad

Most likely injuries were received in drunken fights and

they are lied You about hammers and Afghanistan.  When I was in Odessa we went to their famous Gambrinus beer bar, it was the end of the 80s, we were very surprised that the beer mugs were with broken handles and they were chained to the beer table with the rims on the chain. When we asked why this was, we were kindly explained that during a drunken brawl, they usually take a beer mug by the handle and hit it on the head, but agree to beat the mug without the handle and the chain chained to the table is very uncomfortable!😁😁

On 2/22/2020 at 6:08 PM, TheBaron said:

Dug out some photos I'd taken. (still remember the incredible January sub-zero chill making my hands go numbs whilst taking this time exposure out the window of a Leningrad hotel):

Good view!

As no strange,  but I, too, in the second half of the 80s was on a two-week winter excursion in Leningrad.  True, we lived 42 kilometers from Leningrad and every day we went there on sightseeing buses and an electric train.We lived in a very good tourist boarding house, but from all the rooms I and two other guys got a room with broken heating, at this time at night on the street the frost reached minus 42 degrees Celsius.We lived in a very good tourist boarding house, but from all the rooms I and two other guys got a room with broken heating, at this time at night on the street the frost minus 42 degrees Celsius.🤤We didn’t even need a refrigerator to store food, on the contrary, we could bask in the refrigerator because it was warmer in it!😁😁😁But the harsh Donetsk guys naturally did not complain about this to anyone!  Nevertheless, the next night we were brought two heaters and the temperature in the room became above zero, after a couple of days the heating was repaired and our tourist life went back to normal.

Therefore you remembered about "incredible  January sub-zero chill" v.s. my remembered about Leningrad frozen.....😁

On 2/22/2020 at 6:08 PM, TheBaron said:

Managed to slip away from the group one afternoon and head off alone around the backstreets of the city photographing graffiti:

Being over 30 years old the prints themselves are a bit 'historical' in quality so I must get round to rescanning the negs....

Graffiti contains some an obscene word in Russian about some Helen, I can’t bring his translation here, because it will be obscene!

😁

On 2/22/2020 at 6:08 PM, TheBaron said:

Film industry seemed to go the same way Serge no?

Somewhat better, but this is a separate BIG conversation.

 

On 2/22/2020 at 6:08 PM, TheBaron said:

my generation in art college in the UK grew up on the likes of Tarkovsky

I watched Tarkovsky everything, alas, but my tastes do not differ from the tastes of the masses. For me, Tarkovsky is, first of all, “Stalker” and “Solaris” not even “Ivan's childhood” because Bogomolov is very difficult to film.

On 2/22/2020 at 6:08 PM, TheBaron said:

Klimov

Klimov is known here for perhaps three films: "Welcome or No Trespassing" in places, a funny intellectual comedy, "Agony" about Rasputin and the very heavy and tough film "Go and See" As anti-war movie "Go and See" probably best would movie but very hard & heavy. From relatively similar subjects, I like "Check on the road" and as I wrote the best Soviet military film about pilots, I consider "Torpedo bombers"

 

 

On 2/22/2020 at 6:08 PM, TheBaron said:

Don't take from the above that I've got that unthinking Western disease of nostalgia for things USSR though: the  culture of the time  - both official and unofficial - is genuinely fascinating, but I harbour no illusions about the human cost.

As for me West nostalgia about USSR corny is connected with the fact that people were deprived of a choice and an alternative, for some the USSR was an unconditional enemy for someone, but due to this, they had to maintain certain social standards in the west, otherwise having an alternative there was always a risk of a repeat of the revolution already in Europe  if these standards would be low. Now it makes no sense to maintain standards for all sectors of the population in the field of health care, pensions, work and other things, there is no alternative! Refusal of social guarantees, increase of retirement age, increase of unemployed are all global processes and they are happening in our country as well. 

Naturally, the average man with nostalgia recalls the times when he worked and was provided with work collecting Challenger's and Tornado's because if this is not done, the Soviets will certainly attack ... and now this is not ...in my opinion, this is the reason for nostalgia .... the USSR forced the West to move forward, it was a kind of global competitor for the West .... and now, without competition....watching the rise of US presidential candidates, here we draw analogies with the Politburo of the CPSU period  late Brezhnev ....😁

On 2/22/2020 at 6:08 PM, TheBaron said:

Have you seen/read:

A lot of people in UK and US currently could use such a reminder about what happen when language is deliberately cut loose from reality...

Not sure if I understood correctly your last paragraph in the quote.

But not, of course I don't read this book. Moreover, I did not even hear about its existence until your post. But as I understand it, this book was not published in Russian in the form in which it was published for a Western reader.

It was published in Russian ten years after the English-language publication, as I understand it, it was published with corrections, which is somehow alarming. Even more questions arise when you find out what prizes are awarded to her. And if about the English prize I have only intuitive suspicions that this is a cover for some Western intelligence agency, then the fund that awarded the prize to the Russian edition of this book in the Russian Federation was recognized as a foreign agent.

Many questions on the biography of the author of the book.  In particular, how he, being a physicist by training, ended up in the West and became a professor of anthropology there. After reading the review of this book, I get the impression that it is intended to convince the Western reader of the intellectual that there are no alternatives to the development of society other than capitalism, because here in the USSR they tried and it fell apart, believe it about it  writes Russian from Princeton.😁

Again, the description only affects what the author saw in Leningrad, but if the author writes about the Leningrad rock and roll club to which he was related as a member of the AVIA group ( I have vynil this group) , this does not mean that it was the same throughout the USSR, just like when  I am here at a forum writing about the Donetsk Model Club, this does not mean that the same powerful and strong model club was in Leningrad at that time.  That is, we are talking about anomalies as in the case of the Leningrad rock and roll club and anomalies with the Donetsk model club, but on the basis of the Leningrad anomaly you are invited to draw conclusions as a whole. It is not right.  In order to understand the reasons for the collapse of the USSR, an impartial in-depth analysis of economic, political and social reasons is necessary using not only Soviet but also Western sources, including secret data from the special services, but this is impossible to do theoretically for one person, but we don’t have practically complete information  we will never know.

 

B.R.

Serge

 

P.S.

I would have to write something about Sea Vixen 🤔..... but I really have nothing to write, except that I admire meticulous research!

🤗

 

 

[TheBaron]

Hi Serge!

21 hours ago, Aardvark said:

 It is quite possible they collected files on each of your group and it is quite possible somewhere in the KGB archives the file is gathering dust on you.

Should make an interesting companion to the one MI5 no doubt have on me as a result of living and working in Northern Ireland in the 80s/90s. No doubt both contain several pointed  remarks upon my personal appearance....

21 hours ago, Aardvark said:

Therefore you remembered about "incredible  January sub-zero chill" v.s. my remembered about Leningrad frozen....

I'd never felt such cold! 🧊🥶

I've no photos at all of Moscow as my camera died whilst taking photos out on the ice in the Gulf of Finland and I couldn't get replacement batteries.

21 hours ago, Aardvark said:

Graffiti contains some an obscene word in Russian about some Helen, I can’t bring his translation here, because it will be obscene!

This is a potentially excellent method of avoiding being thrown off the forum for swearing!

21 hours ago, Aardvark said:

After reading the review of this book, I get the impression that it is intended to convince the Western reader of the intellectual that there are no alternatives to the development of society other than capitalism,

I'd caution against dismissing a book you've not actually read yourself Serge  - not because the volume in question is exhaustive about Soviet culture but for the simple reason that it focusses primarily upon the role of language in terms of what Noam Chomsky has referred to elsewhere as 'manufacturing consent'. In this respect (whether the author intends it or not) it condemns ALL political systems in promoting themselves as some kind of just and eternal form of human society to which there are no conceivable alternatives. I seem to recall at one point Yurchak talks about the 'standardization of reality' -  a phrase which sticks in my mind still;  he's not original in such concepts of course, viz. Orwell's 1984, Zamyatin's We.  The corresponding capitalist critique par excellence is no doubt Romero's Dawn of the Dead film of the late 70s.

 

Where I do agree with the tone of the review that you mention are the inconsistencies in the final Afterword/Conclusion section of the book,  this contradicts  its earlier analyses by spouting a load of uncritical idiocy about 'entrepreneurship' as representing salvation from state control. That's clearly working out great over here right now in relation to the likes of Facebook. This is what I imagine reviewers in your own country were antagonized by and with which I would fully agree, it being part of the same family of propaganda touted by Fukuyama's 'end of history' thesis, applauding capitalism's triumph in returning humanity to its 'natural' condition.

 

As to CIA financing, Frances Stonor Saunders' ⤵️

is an illuminating and well-documented account of how many Western writers and artists were both witting and unwitting tools in the pay of Langley over a prolonged period - sobering reading and scrupulously ignored by the art establishments of Western Europe and the US.

21 hours ago, Aardvark said:

For me, Tarkovsky is, first of all, “Stalker” and “Solaris”

Zerkalo for me, then Stalker. Above all else.

I mean:

21 hours ago, Aardvark said:

In order to understand the reasons for the collapse of the USSR, an impartial in-depth analysis of economic, political and social reasons is necessary using not only Soviet but also Western sources, including secret data from the special services, but this is impossible to do theoretically for one person, but we don’t have practically complete information  we will never know.

All history is  - as they say - 'constructed in the discourse', and most academics would themselves reject the idea of universal/totalizing theories of culture. The idea of subjecting publications to critical scrutiny in order to improve knowledge - however partial or imperfect -  is imo opinion a preferable course of action to fatalistic acceptance. Better to build a raft than console yourself whilst treading water that you couldn't build a ship...

21 hours ago, Aardvark said:

P.S.

I would have to write something about Sea Vixen 🤔..... but I really have nothing to write, except that I admire meticulous research!

Most kind! (And I appreciate your company on here.)

 

Better get back to work now, my handler wants those new camber designs at the letter-drop later....

 

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

17 minutes ago, TheBaron said:

Better get back to work now, my handler wants those new camber designs at the letter-drop later....

I think you’re OK for a bit; MI5 seem busy with the Home Secretary...

[TheBaron]

1 hour ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

I think you’re OK for a bit; MI5 seem busy with the Home Secretary...

Patel In Intel Hell?

[TheBaron]

Quick update on the outer wing section which I think has now been resolved. Here's the dimensions of the wing fence from John Derry's logbook from WG240* translated into Fusionspeak at 1/72:

This show the wing profile immediately outboard of the wing fence with dimensions attached but minus any alterations to the leading edge camber. In this state it is no different from the profile immediately inboard of the wing fence due to the fact that from the rear of the fence backwards the two wing profiles have to blend seamlessly into each other - something that had caused my some serious cogitation in terms of a simple method. To whit: using the diagonal formed by the top and bottom rear extents of the  wing fence inn order to slice the profile at that point, prior to replacing everything forward of that with a new drooped camber as seen below.

 

The new profiles from outboard fence to rib 13.

Past & present (thank-you Mr.Derry):

Having established that new camber, a quick test loft was necessary to check that  the rear sections of the wing meet without interruption on either side of that fence now.

Top & bottom views:

The best that I can produce anyway at this scale.

Need to work on a wingtip profile next to cap that end off but, so far at least I think that's a working design from the airfoil section at rib 2 out to rib 13, incorporating that change in camber at the fence region.

 

Right. Now need to find a tool to extricate the bits of cheese sandwich that I appear to have showered the keyboard with whilst typing over lunch. Bet Ced has one (tool, not cheese sandwich obvs)....

 

*I don't recall reading that the wing fence dimensions were altered subsequently but open to correction from  m'learned friends.

 

[giemme]

When is next test print going to be, then?

 

For the cheesy keyboard: switch PC off, blow keyboard with unloaded airbrush at 2 bars - spray at will! 😜

 

Ciao

 

 

[TheBaron]

3 hours ago, giemme said:

When is next test print going to be, then?

I'd like to think by the weekend G, but it's so bloody cold here at present that it might be more practical to make a Sea Vixen ice lolly!

[Martian]

All looking very impressive Tony! I haven't understood a word but I am impressed nevertheless.

 

Bewildered of Mars 👽

[bbudde]

As above Tony. No word here either, but I'm sure you know what you are doing. More comments from me, when I see some plastic . But great work on an unkown field for me.

Cheers

[perdu]

I know nothings

 

But I am convinced that I will know something, however little, when the build actually gets under weigh

 

S'exciting innit

 

[Space Ranger]

29 minutes ago, perdu said:

when the build actually gets under weigh

 

Does this mean it's going to be filled with helium?

[Andwil]

1 hour ago, Space Ranger said:

Does this mean it's going to be filled with helium?

With the thoroughness and attention to detail being displayed here, I’m sure Tony will build it to scale weight for 100% accuracy.

 

AW

[Brandy]

More fasseen  Fassin intrestin stuff going on. I'm joining our Bill in that I don't expect to know much after this, but hopefully a little more at least!

 

 

Ian

[TheBaron]

Been a bit since getting the chance to update this and with all that's happening out there in the world of late, hope that you and yours are safely gathered-in from a) weather, b) sundry virulences. Out shopping earlier and even here in rural Ireland the old extra-quilted has been stripped from the shelves of the local supermarket. We shall be reduced to using sheep at this rate.

 

Ashamed to admit that I've been contributing to the demise of civilization by panic-buying fuse wire and crumpets.

 

On 2/25/2020 at 7:15 PM, Martian Hale said:

I haven't understood a word but I am impressed nevertheless.

That'll learn ye not to have eaten the Babel fish for your supper!

(Good to hear from you Daddy M - hope all is well Poole-side?)

On 2/25/2020 at 8:49 PM, bbudde said:

but I'm sure you know what you are doing.

Of course I do Benedikt!

 

*nervously whistles opening bars of I Fear No Foe in Armour Bright whilst walking round ladder to avoid black cat....

 

On 2/25/2020 at 9:16 PM, perdu said:

when the build actually gets under weigh

Glaciers have moved quicker eh Bill? 🤦‍♂️

On 2/25/2020 at 9:47 PM, Space Ranger said:

Does this mean it's going to be filled with helium?

Scale helium of course Michael - this is Britmodeller after all and one must maintain standards in front of the chaps. 😁

*Runs comb through imaginary moustache...

On 2/25/2020 at 10:49 PM, Andwil said:

With the thoroughness and attention to detail being displayed here, I’m sure Tony will build it to scale weight for 100% accuracy.

With my grasp of mathematics AW this would on the face of it seem an unlikely outcome.

On 2/26/2020 at 6:23 AM, limeypilot said:

I'm joining our Bill in that I don't expect to know much after this, but hopefully a little more at least!

🤪

(actual representation of how my face now permanently looks from staring at wing shapes Ian...)

 

Must be getting on for a fortnight since last we spoke on here so firstly my apologies for not getting round to admire the progress on everyone's work. Life - or rather, the bits of it that require attention for the purpose of keeping the family funded - has morphed into a busier affair these days with a consequence that although I do of course get time to devote to matters Vixen-ish, it isn't always sufficient to get 'into the groove' for the  length of time necessary to get your head in the right place for the task in hand. Add to this the fact that as experience grows you pickup new ( and usually beter) ideas about how to do things with the software each time you sit down to design some new component, and you can get a sense of why this is proceeding at the pace it is.

 

That said, there's a definitive design for the wing now in place:

Much time has ben eaten up by trying to uncover the most elegant and precise way of arriving at such a shape with the software and certainly my earlier optimism that it would just require 'a few simple lofts' was soon shown to be the foolishness of inexperience. Even the wing of this aircraft has so much going on in terms of changing profiles and cambers that it required a whole cycle of discarded experiments before arriving at a disciplined way of breaking it down into controllable sections, from rib 2 outwards to the wing tip:

 

Ironically, but perhaps predictably in the way of the world, it was the actual wingtip that gave me one of the biggest headaches due to the drooped camber of leading edge: I had to make multiple attempts at transitioning from camber to wingtip profile perpendicular to it before arriving at a process that avoided any twists of seams at the visual segue between them. The eventual result though I'm rather pleased with in terms of the economy of technique involved:

A quick test-mirroring of this and the nose section and we've now got two of the main areas blocked out in terms of accurate shape and size at least:

 

As mentioned before, my intention here is to  accurately clarify the overall outline of the aircraft  as a first pass, to be followed  subsequently by second and third passes to deal with external and internal detailing of the various areas - there is so much going-on shapewise with this aircraft in three-dimensions that it would be foolishness to consider getting distracted at this initial stage.

 

Another thing I've learned along the way is the importance of periodic test renders:

These are necessary - particularly here in relation to the developing contours of the various wing sections - to ensure that there are no lurking discontinuities in shape or size at any point.

Before proceeding any further now I want to test print a wing as a further check of quality before proceeding inwards from rib 2 to rib 0 - which should prove particularly challenging with all them luscious curves colliding with one another!

 

Couple of last images to leave you with.

Last moments of sun before the storm hit last weekend:

Storm at its height - the teeth of the West wind photographed through raindrops on the landing window:

Positively maritime.

 

Hope you've been sanitizing your tools....

 

Tony

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Terry1954]

7 minutes ago, TheBaron said:

Hope you've been sanitizing your tools....

I told my wife I will be self isolating in the hobby room. She said "what's new"........ 🤪

 

Still completely awe struck by this build Tony.

 

Terry

[CedB]

15 hours ago, TheBaron said:

Before proceeding any further now I want to test print a wing…

Do it! Do it! 

 

Glad you survived the storm Tony - looks horrid  

[bigbadbadge]

Hi Tony

Looking very impressive indeed, I am with Mr Martian as I don't understand it at all.  

 

Stay safe

All the best

Chris

[perdu]

As ever, me neither but blimey if I owned a ghast it would be well and truly flabbered.

[giemme]

1 hour ago, CedB said:

Do it! Do it! 

Yes, yes, yes! We want to see them 3d printings!

 

Ciao

[AdrianMF]

16 hours ago, Terry1954 said:

I told my wife I will be self isolating in the hobby room. She said "what's new"........ 🤪

struck a chord in my house. I should have given it two laughs, one from Mrs MF!

 

The renders are looking good Tony. I hadn’t thought about the reflections showing up the shape, but I guess it’s like holding a sanded item up to the light and twirling it around.

 

Regards,

Adrian

 

[hendie]

brilliant work Tony.   I understand the enormity of this project and the complexities involved and I know a lot of CAD Monkeys who would never have gotten this far.  The fact that you are consistently marching forward while learning new software ?  Kudos to you sir!

 

I'm looking forward to the test prints - they should be very interesting

[Brandy]

Those renders are very impressive! Almost as impressive as your "before the storm" photo. Those upturned chairs definitely have a post-storm look to them!

 

Ian

[Space Ranger]

6 hours ago, limeypilot said:

Those renders are very impressive! Almost as impressive as your "before the storm" photo. Those upturned chairs definitely have a post-storm look to them!

 

Ian

There has been absolutely no news coverage (here in north Texas, anyway) of the stormy weather the UK has suffered in the last few weeks, which is disappointing and rather surprising, given that there a good many British ex-pats living and working in the area. Why, there is even a British tea shop not far from where I live in the city of Grapevine.