Sea Vixen FAW.1x2

[Aardvark]

On 1/11/2020 at 5:18 PM, Martian Hale said:

biggest lie since Lucrezia Borgia claimed her kitchen had a five star health certificate.

I never liked her Big Mac recipe

with lard and garlic, the classic Big Mac recipe from her brother Cesare Borgia was better!

😁😁

 

On 1/11/2020 at 5:27 PM, TheBaron said:

On 1/10/2020 at 6:02 PM, bbudde said:

Don't know what your doing exactly, but it looks very busy and professionell!

Hurrah! My maskirovka has worked Benedikt! 😁

So this is what you look like ... North Korea's:

On 1/10/2020 at 4:32 PM, TheBaron said:

 

secret ballistic missile program!

😲😁

 

On 1/11/2020 at 5:27 PM, TheBaron said:

Of course a sensible person would have picked something simpler like a Mig-15 to start off on and and gotten away with just modelling a barrel and some triangles...

The guys from Airfix also thought so when they started to make their MiG-17s, now they know how curses sound modeller's in at least three languages - Russian, English and Hungarian!

🤔😲😁😁

 

B.R.

Serge

 

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

On 1/11/2020 at 2:27 PM, TheBaron said:

 

Great photo - never seen that one before.  A Boscombe Down (‘RN Test Squadron’ on the nose) early FAW1.
 

BEAST!

 

Edit: that quoting went well.  Can’t be fished to re-do it!

Edited January 13, 2020 by Ex-FAAWAFU

[71chally]

On 1/11/2020 at 2:27 PM, TheBaron said:

that is one of the nicest SV shots I've found to give a sense of the drama involved in flinging one of these beasts into the sea air:

Tony

It's one of a comprehensive series of shots showing XJ474 aboard Ark Royal for type carrier trials in late July 1957.  Don't they look good without stores pylons.

[Neil Lambess]

Dear Airfix .... please sign this guy up as the designer of your eagerly anticipated 1/72nd Sea Vixen ....

........nuff said !

[The Spadgent]

Nice 3D work Tony. A bit like a working day for me also although as you know I use 3D Studio Max in my day to day. Your side profile and top profile jobby is a pretty good way of getting what you’re after shape wise although you might lose some parts in translation. It’s always the way.  As for verts cutting through I remember having problems with this when I printed my Messerchmit bomb a few years back. You had to “jelly mould” the mesh.  Not a technical term but one used in the industry to say that the outer skin of your mesh is continuous and has no vertices jutting through or not attached. In max you can do a quick and dirty “Shell” of an object for 3D print but it’s always best to have a clean mesh to begin with as others have mentioned.  Quick question, are you planning a solid print ( like chunky chocolate ) or a shell ( like an Easter egg ) to fit insides? My one was solid as it seemed the easier approach but I’m guessing you want internals? sounds tricky. 🤔

Any hoo, this is turning into quite the build. excellent dabbling sir, I’m impressed. To be fair I was impressed with you’re use of the glasses hinge all those moons ago. 🙌

 

Johnny.

[keefr22]

23 hours ago, Neil Lambess said:

Dear Airfix .... please sign this guy up as the designer of your eagerly anticipated 1/72nd Sea Vixen ....

 

....and get him to design your new 1/72nd Javelin to go with it....!!

[Aardvark]

5 hours ago, keefr22 said:

 

5 hours ago, keefr22 said:

Dear Airfix .... please sign this guy up as the designer of your eagerly anticipated 1/72nd Sea Vixen ....

....and get him to design your new 1/72nd Javelin to go with it....!!

Why such trifles?  I think he should be appointed head of the board of shareholders of the company!

😁

 

B.R.

Serge

 

[qn30jEkPz7]

Must be pretty close to having a Britmodeller collective model range ready to go

[Kushan_Farsight]

On 1/11/2020 at 2:27 PM, TheBaron said:

It raises a number of obvious problems of course in terms of how to integrate such forms into the surrounding parts of the aircraft structure along with reconciling it for 3d printing - both of which I've yet to resolve - but does gives me confidence (that I didn't have yesterday) that there is a common-sense approach to these kinds of formal problems thrown up by the aircraft.

 

@TheBaron  whilst you no doubt will want to incorporate as many of the parts into the structure before you 'export' it ready for 3d printing, you could always blend the parts together later on, especially if its being built for 3d printing and you dont need to worry about mold draft angles etc.

Meshmixer is a free to use program, and can be quite good for doing this. (for example, for a friend i was able to take a premade VW camper wheel cap, a premade VW camper 3d model, and 'blend' them into a single watertight mesh + shell with standard 2mm wall thickness  - very handy as i didnt have access to the original model files to edit.) It is especially good for hollowing out parts, and introducing escape holes for resin etc. As a free bit of kit, its a worthwhile addition to your modelling toolkit. 

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

18 hours ago, LostCosmonauts said:

Must be pretty close to having a Britmodeller collective model range ready to go

Led by the 1/32 Barracuda, obvs.  

[chrislowe]

When I saw this thread and then saw that there were already 15 pages, I thought maybe i'd missed most of it but I'd be there in time for the decals.

 

Didn't need to worry. Seems like i was just late for class and early for modelling (are they different?)

 

Work away, I'll find a seat near the front. 

 

 

Edited January 18, 2020 by chrislowe

[hendie]

24 minutes ago, chrislowe said:

When I saw this thread and then saw that there were already 15 pages, I thought maybe i'd be there in time for the decals.

 

ah.... you're likely be a lookin' for a Ced thread then son.

 

take a left at the crossroads and it's just over the stile    (better hurry though)

[TheBaron]

Up at the crack of D with Mrs. B to feed the ducks and chickens this morning, to find nature churning this stuff out across the Eastern sky:

Looking in the opposite direction westward to the Atlantic you could see the earthshadow slide away over the edge of the world:

The heaviest frost of the year under a bright fingernail of moon.

 

Not 'Fog on the Tyne',  but 'Frost on the Sunderland'...

 

Ar tháinig fear an phoist fós?

On 1/11/2020 at 3:23 PM, giemme said:

Those intakes look very ... artistic (in the best possible way)

Thanks Giorgio.

That was primarily a test of technique which I think will come in handy later for building certain continuous sections in a controllable manner. (Hopefully...)

On 1/12/2020 at 2:58 PM, bigbadbadge said:

This is absolutely amazing Tony, I don't understand it, but I am very impressed.

Ta Chris.  

Takes me time to understand it, but I blunder on nevertheless...

On 1/12/2020 at 11:04 PM, Aardvark said:

So this is what you look like ... North Korea's:

S'funny but I've grown to like Korean food of late Serge.

A third point of coincidence and this will become a full-blown conspiracy...!

On 1/13/2020 at 11:10 PM, Neil Lambess said:

Dear Airfix .... please sign this guy up as the designer of your eagerly anticipated 1/72nd Sea Vixen ....

........nuff said !

With a rider that Neil's on 10% for handling PR and Comms.....

On 1/13/2020 at 11:14 PM, The Spadgent said:

My one was solid as it seemed the easier approach but I’m guessing you want internals? sounds tricky.

Tricky is right Johnny as there are a number of variables to contend with that affect the 'decision-tree' as it were.

 

There's a natural inclination to simply forge on here and 'design the aircraft' - which I've slowly come to realize was a naive inclination of my part - instead of considering how it also needs to be manufactured in order to fit together as a series of sections that include -as you point out - quite a lot of negative spaces within the airframe for internal detailing.

 

No point looking Ok in virtual form is it don't actually print out and work as a material structure.

 

Overlaid on top of this is the need to keep any approaches to design editable so that any number of likely adjustments and corrections can be made later on along the timeline, as and when required.

 

@hendie mentioned this in terms of dependencies a few pages back and he is dead right!

 

I'll outline some of the changes this has made to method down below as I've come to realize that a blend of approaches is the likely outcome for various regions of the airframe.

 

On 1/14/2020 at 10:47 PM, keefr22 said:

...and get him to design your new 1/72nd Javelin to go with it....!!

Close enough....

On 1/15/2020 at 4:05 AM, Aardvark said:

I think he should be appointed head of the board of shareholders of the company!

On 1/15/2020 at 4:58 PM, LostCosmonauts said:

Must be pretty close to having a Britmodeller collective model range ready to go

You boys are just getting silly now.

I have no business sense of any description!

On 1/15/2020 at 5:23 PM, Kushan_Farsight said:

Meshmixer is a free to use program,

I have played around with that in the past Kushan when doing some filament printing a year or so back. I'm currently using the Chitubox software that comes with the Elegoo printer though, which although imperfect, when used in conjunction with the Photon FileValidator provides a quite efficient and reliable pipeline for hollowing and supporting. I've found that there's a way of plugging Chitubox directly into Fusion360 so that you can trial any prints in advance whilst still in the design environment and make adjustments on the fly, which turns out to be most helpful.

On 1/15/2020 at 5:23 PM, Kushan_Farsight said:

you could always blend the parts together later on, especially if its being built for 3d printing and you dont need to worry about mold draft angles etc

Agreed. This is always an option.

On 1/16/2020 at 11:14 AM, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

Led by the 1/32 Barracuda, obvs.

<Ahem> Would it encourage you to actually finish one? (Haven't you a 1/48 in progress somewhere...? )

On 1/17/2020 at 10:16 PM, chrislowe said:

Work away, I'll find a seat near the front. 

Ta Chris - you're most welcome to join the throng!

On 1/17/2020 at 10:44 PM, hendie said:

ah.... you're likely be a lookin' for a Ced thread then son.

 

take a left at the crossroads and it's just over the stile    (better hurry though)

For truly he is a hare amongst the lumbering tortoises such as myself.

 

I haven't posted anything of note over the week for the simple reason that I've been experimenting and learning and tbh it's not great viewing to watch the equivalent of someone scribbling on bits of paper, trying out an idea, swearing, making occasional breakthoughs, taking two steps back for every three forward and generally having a right old fandango. Or is that farrago?

 

Anyhoo; I feel that there has been sufficient understanding garnered by today to provide an update on proceedings...

 

This was - if you recall - the sort of stage I was at in sculpting form:

Able now to get accurate outlines in three-dimensions but growing increasingly conscious that such a process in itself was not the answer to interacting with the combination of vertical asymmetry and radically changing horizontal contours that make up the geometry of this beautiful aircraft. As just a single eample of the challenge to be faced (and lest you think I'm neglecting kits altogether), a quick squint at the 'shoulder' of the SV in the High Planes moulding should suffice to bring the problem into focus:

This feature is but one example of the subtle contours that are visible in only photographs of the actual aircraft taken in certain light and at certain angles: the final tapering out of the engine tunnel into the leading edge of the intake close up against the fuselage. To my eye HP have caught that pretty much bang on, but it you run your eye in a cross section from wing to shoulder and across the curves of the fuselage you can see even in this single example what a nightmare that would prove to try and sculpt from a single form, then repeat all the way back to the exhaust.

 

So whilst I thing the sculptural approach will work for areas like the air intakes and associated fairings, it's only a partial solution. The wings will I think be best handled in the manner I've already played with (in terms of lofted profiles) though - as @hendie predicted - I've already found a more economical and direct approach using rails instead of the multitude of unnecessary profiles I'd employed previously.

 

I've therefore gone right back to basics as it were for the central 'box' of the airframe and forward cockpit/nose sections - deciding that there's no short cut to the problem of building it up as  a detailed 3d drawing involving multiple planes and axes. Here's the starting-point then, with construction lines defining the overall length, wingspan and tailplane width to 1/72 scale, and a horizontal cross section of the central airframe.

Note that in the region of the air intakes, I've pulled this outline back away from the leading edge of the wing at an angle so that those fairings/tunnels can be added in as separate sculpted components.

 

The intention here is to draw out as accurately as possible the main profiles in a series of transects from nose to engine exhaust structure.  In preparation for this procedure I spent today laying out a series of vertical planes at 90° to the central axis:

Each of these planes defines a point where the overall profile of the airframe changes contour significantly in three-dimensions:

Each of those planes now gives me a drawing surface on which to begin creating a cross-sectional profile. If it becomes necessary later on in the design process I can step back to this point in time and simply add additional planes as required (though hopefully not too many...):

Most importantly, because these will be basically drawings in 3D space, if any profiles need alteration later on in the timeline, I can come back to them here and do so accordingly in embryonic form.

 

That took a lot of time today to organize and lay-out so I'm not going to attempt any further drawing today but feel I pleased that this more detailed, basic approach gives the kind of control and editability that I was seeking.

 

Sun's going down outside now and feels like another frosty night in the offing; hope you're comfortably warm wherever you are tonight.

Tony

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Aardvark]

46 minutes ago, TheBaron said:

S'funny but I've grown to like Korean food of late Serge.

From Korean food, only Korean carrots and Korean herring adapted to local  kitchen.....despite the fact that we have Korean food and the Korean diaspora is not small....but at the same time, most of the inhabitants of Asia who were here in their studies preferred local cuisine ... I have repeatedly watched how Chinese (or Korean?) students coming to dinner constantly ordered borsch in the local restaurant...😁

47 minutes ago, TheBaron said:

A third point of coincidence and this will become a full-blown conspiracy...!

"I'm big a pardon!?

....(Mr.Dalliard we ve been activated!)"(c)

 

😁😁😁
 

48 minutes ago, TheBaron said:

You boys are just getting silly now.

I have no business sense of any description!

Any problems!

In this topic, a shadow government 😆 is almost formed

On 1/15/2020 at 7:58 PM, LostCosmonauts said:

Must be pretty close to having a Britmodeller collective model range ready to go

to manage Airfix!

😉😁😁

We will do everything ourselves here, you only need to put your signature on the papers!😉😆😆

 

B.R.

Serge

[Cookenbacher]

I still can't believe you're doing this Tony. That's some impressive 3-D work already.

[Brandy]

You've completely lost me now, but I'll still be following to see if I can pick anything useful up. Unlikely though!

 

Ian

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

3 hours ago, TheBaron said:

<Ahem> Would it encourage you to actually finish one? (Haven't you a 1/48 in progress somewhere...? )

Define "in progress"...

[TheBaron]

4 hours ago, Aardvark said:

I have repeatedly watched how Chinese (or Korean?) students coming to dinner constantly ordered borsch in the local restaurant.

I probably would too - especially in winter!

Unless it was a Korean restaurant, then it would have to be an abundance of Bao buns...

4 hours ago, Aardvark said:

We will do everything ourselves here, you only need to put your signature on the papers!

I said I had no business sense - not that I was completely gullible! 

3 hours ago, Cookenbacher said:

I still can't believe you're doing this Tony. That's some impressive 3-D work already.

Kind of you Cookie.

As per usual I'm heading off into a dark forest of my own making, actually and metaphorically.... 🤦‍♂️

3 hours ago, limeypilot said:

You've completely lost me now, but I'll still be following to see if I can pick anything useful up. 

I  may let slip my recipe for slow-cooked spiced beef with sour cream and sugarsnaps, if that helps Ian...

2 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

Define "in progress"...

'Box briefly opened'.

(The Samurai sword principle of modelling!)

[hendie]

6 hours ago, TheBaron said:

As just a single example of the challenge to be faced (and lest you think I'm neglecting kits altogether), a quick squint at the 'shoulder' of the SV in the High Planes moulding should suffice to bring the problem into focus:

 

another option would be to ignore that wing/fuselage interface for the initial modeling and concentrate on getting the fuselage contours and the wing contours correct - then come back to add that transition area in later as opposed to trying to get all that complex geometry right in one go.

 

Loving this thread

 

 

[Andwil]

15 pages without glue or paint, this thread is setting a new record for, I’m not sure what, but I think it’s impressive.

 

We should keep score on how many models @CedB starts and finishes during the Sea Vixen odyssey. 
 

AW

[AdrianMF]

I wonder if you will reach a point where you "think in CAD", like when you learn a foreign language you eventually start to speak it without first translating it from your native tongue?

 

We are all so used to using physical tools and materials to build complex shapes that we forget the learning process that got us there. 

 

Regards,

Adrian

[Procopius]

13 minutes ago, AdrianMF said:

I wonder if you will reach a point where you "think in CAD", like when you learn a foreign language you eventually start to speak it without first translating it from your native tongue?

Tony opens his mouth and a series of geometric shapes float out.

[Procopius]

8 hours ago, TheBaron said:

Unless it was a Korean restaurant, then it would have to be an abundance of Bao buns...

 

Weird; here in the 'states, bao are strictly a Chinese food thing.

[Aardvark]

10 hours ago, AdrianMF said:

I wonder if you will reach a point where you "think in CAD",

Yeppp 

😉😁😁

10 hours ago, AdrianMF said:

We are all so used to using physical tools and materials to build complex shapes

First stage @TheBaron

.....finally stage @TheBaron after year posting in this topic:

😉😁😁

10 hours ago, Procopius said:

here in the 'states, bao are strictly a Chinese food thing.

...and as we know, most Asians believe that all white guys have the same faces....yeppp!!!

😉😁😁

 

19 hours ago, TheBaron said:

I  may let slip my recipe for slow-cooked spiced beef* with sour cream and sugarsnaps,

Who needs this Sea Vixen in topic  now ?!

😆😆😆

 

B.R.

Serge

_____________

* - By the way, there is an interesting recipe for Chinese very thinly sliced

beef marinated

in egg white with garlic, salt, ground cayenne pepper

and starch.  Marinated for 30 minutes, cooked for 5 minutes, but you need a wok (I no have wok but i have simple form cast iron cauldron 😎)

for cooking.

 

Edited January 20, 2020 by Aardvark

[The Spadgent]

You could use 3D virtual glue to make us all feel better. 🤣

Great work Tony. 🙌

 

Johnny