Sea Vixen FAW.1x2

[Fritag]

On 12/21/2019 at 2:21 PM, TheBaron said:

Whitby? I thought the Goth festival was over for this year Steve?

Indeed (but Mrs F is more interested in the Whitby jet than the goths.......especially at prezzie times of year )

 

Anyways, it's not long 'til Whitby Steampunk Weekend on 8/9 Feb 2020   Altho' I'll be checking out the colour of the Alps that weekend, to see if they've returned to their proper colour  

 

Actually, We've been to Whitby when the Goth's are in town - it's terrific fun and a visual treat.

 

On 12/21/2019 at 2:21 PM, TheBaron said:

Don't doubt that they were good for their time but think it's possible to do better - just have to work out a viable route.

 

And before anyone suggests any more aftermarket stuff I mean a scratchbuilt solution to the inboard wings/boom, not buying anything... ☠️

 

Whilst you're at it. Are you really sure about the provided fuselage bits? or the misc. other bits come to think about it.   All that's needed is a viable route after all 

 

19 hours ago, TheBaron said:

Here's an example of the kind of numerical data required to convert the aerofoil shape into a set of spline curves:

Blimey.....My esteemed señior service colleague had just about convinced me that wings wos just 'planks'.   I now see from the scientific evidence that he's wrong!  (or at the least, they're quite complicated planks )

 

13 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

19 hours ago, TheBaron said:

This is just a crude first pass...

Yeah, that was exactly the phrase that sprung to mind when I looked at it!

 Yeah, me too.  I don't understand what he's done or how he's done it or how he can do it so well mind you, but I shan't let that stop me being determinedly unimpressed......

 

Well what can I properly (and non-facetiously ) say Tony?  Save that it's properly informative, interesting and inspiring stuff.  

 

 

 

Edited December 23, 2019 by Fritag

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

29 minutes ago, Fritag said:

.... now see from the scientific evidence that he's wrong!

Fake noos.  I think we’ve all had enough of experts.  You can prove anything with statistics.

 

I shun your so-called ‘evidence’

[keefr22]

9 hours ago, CedB said:

More dark arts eh?

I'll just sit quietly at the back and take notes…

 

Wake me up if I start snoring Ced....

[Heather Kay]

1 minute ago, keefr22 said:

Wake me up if I start snoring Ced....

I hope I don’t start snoring. Y'see, I really would like to learn about this stuff. My problem, though, is like Homer Simpson. His head couldn’t take any new information without older stuff being pushed out to make room.

[perdu]

55 minutes ago, Fritag said:

 I don't understand what he's done or how he's done or how he can do it so well mind you, but I shan't let that stop me being determinedly unimpressed......

Me too, so far a set of numbers has not got my juices flowing...

 

However if we get this

*

 

When the numbers crunch

 

It defeated me except in the roughest approximation context, can the printer add these innards during the print process?

 

 

(Compliments to @Massimo for the picture that he loaned to my Vixen build)

 

How is he, anyone? 

[CedB]

38 minutes ago, perdu said:

…can the printer add these innards during the print process?

Sounds like a challenge to me!

[Terry1954]

52 minutes ago, CedB said:

Sounds like a challenge to me!

Go Ced go ......!

[Pete in Lincs]

19 hours ago, CedB said:

I'll just sit quietly at the back

This is new??

 

 

[TheBaron]

On 12/22/2019 at 1:55 PM, Heather Kay said:

You probably heard that whooshing sound as all that went right over my head at about Mach 1.8. 

 

On 12/22/2019 at 2:57 PM, Spookytooth said:

More "Dark Arts" going on here!!!!!

Same as @Heather Kay, right above my head.

 

19 hours ago, CedB said:

More dark arts eh?

 

11 hours ago, Fritag said:

I don't understand what he's done or how he's done it or how he can do it so well mind you, but I shan't let that stop me being determinedly unimpressed......

 

I've far too much respect for you lot to think that you really believe such nonsense so let's dispel some myths.

You learned to do this stuff yourselves before you really learned to talk properly.

It's called 'drawing'.

 

Here's a scrawl to explain:

Bloke called Euclid banged on about it in his point-line-plane postulate donkey's years back - mad keen for this geometry stuff the Ancient G's - when they weren't shagging anything in sandals or with hoofs.

 

In the above sketch, everything is still of course on a flat surface, even the shape giving the illusion of perspective. (Hat tip to Filippo Brunelleschi for giving us the understanding to consistently create such illusion of depth on a flat surface.)

 

A nice image here that shows both the difference with an actual object done in CGI or CAD compared to a flat drawing (i.e it gives the illusion of being a 3D dimensional object):

 - but - as importantly -  the similarity of it, in still being made up of points/lines/planes to describe the overall object mesh.

 

Where all the numbers come in is simply that each point has a unique position in space, based generally (but not always, depending on the software settings) upon the convention of an:

 

x - horizontal axis

y- vertical axis

z - axis perpendicular to the other two (giving depth/perspective etc.)

 

3D in other words - where each point (joined by lines to its neighbours) has an x,y & z number describing its position in space.

You can thank René Descartes for this co-ordinate system - who also thought (therefore he was) but generally left the livestock alone.

 

Still points and lines though - you with me?

 

The spline curves I mentioned?

Points and lines again!

This time, the line (referred to now as a spline) joining any two points is a curve, the direction and degree of curvature being controlled from each end by control handles (those things that look like a set of oars projecting from the sides of each points).

 

Curves = chords = wings.

That was all I did in the CAD stuff above.

 

Alright, the software does take some time to learn in order to integrate various processes in the right order but - and this is the important thing -  it's all just points - lines - (aero)planes....

 

You knew didn't you, that this explanation would lead to the inevitable, nay irresistible punchline:

Brucie: 'What do points mean?'

Audience: 'Prizes Aircraft!!'

 

On 12/22/2019 at 7:29 PM, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

Crude?  If that's a crude first pass, then I really cannot wait to see the refined version.

'Tis easy to make it a look all flash & shiny - whether it's accurate is another matter!

 

I need to go back and adjust the profiles that define each end of that wing section more precisely before risking a test-print Crisp.

 

11 hours ago, Fritag said:

Actually, We've been to Whitby when the Goth's are in town - it's terrific fun and a visual treat.

That sounds great Steve.

I'm always attracted to events and people of that nature: there can be too much rationality in the world sometimes.

 

11 hours ago, Fritag said:

Whilst you're at it. Are you really sure about the provided fuselage bits? or the misc. other bits come to think about it.   All that's needed is a viable route after all 

That thought - however misguided opportunistic - has already occurred to me. 🤦‍♂️

 

If I treat this build as a CAD/printing learning exercise out of a combined love for the Vixen and old kits, this may help me develop sufficient skills to be able to integrate with brass and vacforming for a fully scratch-built future project. (Parnall<cough>Peto<cough cough....)

10 hours ago, Heather Kay said:

hope I don’t start snoring. Y'see, I really would like to learn about this stuff.

Hope the above is of some use Heather.

10 hours ago, perdu said:

However if we get this

9 hours ago, CedB said:

Sounds like a challenge to me!

Far be it for me to fan the flames of wanton speculation Bill & Ced but between judicious use of brass and the 3d printing I see no reason to suppose that we can't have a decent crack at said gubbins.

 

Bill & Ced? Wasn't that a film?

Something about an adventure?

8 hours ago, Terry1954 said:

Go Ced go ......!

Oi you. He's bad enough without the peer pressure.

26 minutes ago, Pete in Lincs said:

This is new???? 

This is new???? 

This is new???? 

It's a trap Pete - it's gotta be a euphemism for summat.

 

Dear friends - I'm logging off of all online avenues for a few days over Christmas.

 

I'll still be fiddling with sundry Vixenry of course - due in no small measure to the generosity of James lending me his Buttler and Franks volumes to read (which I shall begin forthwith over cocoa later) - but it only remains for me to wish all of you on here:

Take care of yourselves and those you love.

Eat too much and drink incautiously.

But never try to crack a walnut with your buttocks.

 

See you in a few days.

X

Tony

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Spookytooth]

4 minutes ago, TheBaron said:

But never try to crack a walnut with your buttocks.

Unless your name is John Inman....

 

Have a great Xmas yourself sir.

 

Simon.

[Pete in Lincs]

And a merry Christmas to yourself and yours and all our other happy band of ejits followers.

I too may well be incommunicado over the festering season as we are out overnighting etc.

Don't drink anything I wouldn't deliver!

Pete

[Heather Kay]

35 minutes ago, TheBaron said:

postulate donkey's years

I’ll have you know I’ve not postulated donkey's years for ages - not since the court order, at least.

 

As to all that other stuff, well, the whooshing is in danger of dislodging my coiffeur. 

 

That's nuclear grade technical stuff (and I do understand some of it, at least some of the words used anyway) but I tried, and failed, to grasp 3D CAD in the late 1990s. That was when my brain cell was still open to new ideas, but I couldn’t get 3D to stick. I am strictly a two-dimensional kind of person, save when wrangling a three-dimensional object directly in my mitts. Kudos to those who can grasp it, though. My titfer is well and truly tipped.

 

Merry Christmas as well. It’s crept up on us a bit sharpish this year, hasn’t it!

Edited December 23, 2019 by Heather Kay

[Terry1954]

5 minutes ago, Heather Kay said:

Merry Christmas as well. It’s crept up on us a bit sharpish this year, hasn’t it!

CHRISTMAS?      Where..........?

 

😁

[keefr22]

50 minutes ago, TheBaron said:

That was all I did in the CAD stuff above.

 

Nope, still don't get it....

 

Merry Christmas to you and yours Tony! (and all the other brainboxes and numbskulls that frequent this thread & the rest of BM!)

 

Keith

 

 

[Martian]

1 hour ago, TheBaron said:

 

 

So that's what your Christmas party frock looks like this year!

 

Martian 👽

[Aardvark]

On 12/21/2019 at 5:21 PM, TheBaron said:

 

This are new member's of the Sea Vixen fan club, go to write a few lines in this topic?

😁

 

B.R.

Serge

 

 

[CedB]

Merry Christmas to The Baron and all the Baronettes!

Have a good one Tony  

[Brandy]

Merry Christmas Tony et al!

 

Ian

[bigbadbadge]

Merry Christmas Tony and everyone too

[The Spadgent]

Errrrm ok. Looks like I have a lot to catch up on. ( what the hell you’re talking about splines and vertices ) it’s like being back at work. 🤪 I’m headed to the bench for a bit. Merry Christmas Kids. 😇

 

Johnny  

[The Spadgent]

Yowza! Just caught up. Looks like I’ll be putting my Vixen build off for. 🤔 2xVixens = (18 + 18) so 36 months. 😳🤪🤩 as there is no way any one would want to watch with these going on.🤯

I was going to ask the question about how accurate the Airfix kit was but I think I have my answer by reading this thread. I’m a little happier as I can use the kit parts. 🥳

Looking like this is going to be Yet another baronial treat.  By the way did you ever consider using photogrammetry?

 Tools such as “mesh room” work particularly well by feeding lots of photos from many different angles into the program and getting a pretty accurate 3D model. Messy but at least it’ll be correct and you could model around it to create something to print?

just a thought.

 Merry Christmas kid. 
I’ll of course be tagging along. 🤩🤩🤩🤩

Johnny

[stevehnz]

10 hours ago, The Spadgent said:

Just caught up

Ditto, as usual, interesting & entertaining in like measure. I'll follow along as best I can & I'm sure my Sea Vixen knowledge base will be hugely enhanced. Most of which I'll likely ignore when I get around to build my two Frogspawn ones.   At least though I'll have a better idea of what I'm leaving out than I did before.  

Steve.

[TheBaron]

On 12/23/2019 at 7:21 PM, Spookytooth said:

Unless your name is John Inman....

I'm free Captain Peacock!

On 12/23/2019 at 7:24 PM, Pete in Lincs said:

Don't drink anything I wouldn't deliver!

Best line of the festive period! 😁

⭐ for you mister!

On 12/23/2019 at 7:49 PM, Heather Kay said:

Merry Christmas as well. It’s crept up on us a bit sharpish this year, hasn’t it!

Had to stop and think that it was actually going to be a new decade in a few days time!

#lunchtime doubly so

On 12/23/2019 at 7:55 PM, Terry1954 said:

CHRISTMAS?      Where..........?

Here.

(an old meme but a good meme...)

On 12/23/2019 at 8:10 PM, keefr22 said:

Tony! (and all the other brainboxes and numbskulls that frequent this thread & the rest of BM!)

That's an awful way to talk about socially challenged misfits Keith. It's not our fault we're not Welsh.

 

On 12/23/2019 at 8:52 PM, Martian Hale said:

So that's what your Christmas party frock looks like this year!

Oi!

It took me ages to get the hems sewn!

On 12/23/2019 at 9:34 PM, Aardvark said:

This are new member's of the Sea Vixen fan club,

I like that idea very much Serge!

 

On 12/24/2019 at 12:05 AM, CedB said:

Have a good one Tony

Cheers Ced. Hope you dipped your beak in some prime vino.

On 12/24/2019 at 8:32 AM, limeypilot said:

Merry Christmas Tony et al!

'et al'.

My surname for tax purposes from now on....

On 12/25/2019 at 5:54 PM, bigbadbadge said:

Merry Christmas Tony and everyone too

Cheers Chris - hope you had a good one.

On 12/26/2019 at 12:22 PM, The Spadgent said:

By the way did you ever consider using photogrammetry?

Yup - it's a good point Johnny.

 

Actually played around with Reality Capture a while back for film work but in this instance with so many Sea Vixen photos taken from different focal lengths and in varying directional lighting conditions to contend with, it'd be a nightmare trying to match focal lengths &etc. in order to compensate for optical distortions and related errors across the frames.

 

Sadly Father Christmas didn't bring me a LIDAR setup (but trying to get work to buy one, if I can conjure a valid reason).

 

I actually had a kind invite just prior to Christmas from those lovely people over at Navy Wings to come and photograph XP924 whilst she was being repaired in the hangar, but time and finances just won't allow a trip across the water at present.

22 hours ago, stevehnz said:

Most of which I'll likely ignore when I get around to build my two Frogspawn ones.   At least though I'll have a better idea of what I'm leaving out than I did before.

I've decided to leave out the entire Frog Steve, this I know is called being 'less than helpful'... 🤦‍♂️

 

Drove over to Galway this morning as one of Mrs B's oldest schoolfriends was back over visiting her family and she related something disgusting that had happened to her.

 

She's a specialist in a well known London hospital, worked there for years and before that in the mental health sector in England under enormously stressful circumstances due to continual cuts in staffing.

Conscientious, self-effacing and compassionate like most people in the medical profession.

 

She had an email from their HR department recently telling her (in terms intended to inspire gratitude) that she'd be able to keep her job as she 'wasn't on the list' i.e., of those nationals under threat of being forced to lose their positions under Brexit.

 

Think about that what it feels like to be one of those people on the receiving end of language like that for a moment: 'On a list.'

What were those countries in the past where people were put on lists again?

Funny how often it started with people being booted out of professions.

 

You can no doubt hear the fury in my words tonight at a good woman being made to feel as if she's merely being tolerated by a society that she's done so much to care for.

I honestly don't care at this point if I'm kicked off the forum for posting politics - I care about what happens in the country of my birth but I know poison when I see it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[perdu]

Bureaucrats shall all burn in a hell of their own devising

 

And that is as political as I dare get this year

 

Or next

 

I fear for the faded reputation of dear little Frogvixen when you finish these Tony, I may start a home for vagrant Froglets

Let them watch Netflix with me in the darkling hours, hoping for the return of Hinterland or a new series of Jack Taylor

 

Or season nineteen of GOT...

[TheBaron]

@Stew Dapple said an important thing over on his Raiden 'Jack' thread earlier:

9 hours ago, Stew Dapple said:

if modelling is also a learning process,

This describes really rather well the reasons for me making a major change to the initial premise of the build.

 

57 minutes ago, perdu said:

I fear for the faded reputation of dear little Frogvixen when you finish these Tony, I may start a home for vagrant Froglets

I feel such an utter cad and bounder now Bill for putting the Froggy little thing back in the pond where the (de Havilland) Heron might get it...

57 minutes ago, perdu said:

Let them watch Netflix with me in the darkling hours, hoping for the return of Hinterland or a new series of Jack Taylor

Have you seen 'Succession' yet? I've only binge-watched the first season and most everyone in it is a complete <expletive deleted> but Brian Cox is a brilliant Murdoch-esque central character.

 

Explanation Time

I've been staring at so many photographs of late in both photographic and drawn form -then looking back at the Frog kit and wondering why bother? The SH looks broadly fine with some adjustments, a number of which are necessitated anyway by turning her into XJ481.The Anson previously made for a great retrofit project because (barring the flat belly) Airfix caught the overall shape and proportion of the aircraft really quite handsomely in a way that Frog patently didn't manage to achieve here in a number of instances with the SeaVee.

 

Old kit/I knew the problems/no complaints, but time and techniques march on:  I've no real interest in the Frankenstein route of cutting and shunting parts together (which is what the Frog will end up being with so much to replace) so in this photograph, everything in the box on the left is now being returned to the wild:

and alongside XJ481, we'll build XN708 entirely from scratch.

Or at least - as Mr. 50 Cent has opined under other circumstances - 'die tryin'

 

This means a lot more staring at a lot of photos:

but this would have been necessary anyway in order to get things right, not least of which involves building a mental visual map of the aircraft reduced to its most essential forms as a series of streamlined compound curves (not to scale or proportion here):

To actually make the thing I think  I'll rely primarily upon  brass (because I'm familiar with it) for structural detailing, and CAD because I'm a rank amateur who'll be learning (no doubt, through a succession of ridiculous mistakes) on the job in terms of 3D printing major components.

 

In preparation for said hubristic exercise I've been getting some tips from my favourite Laurel & Hardy film:

 

As a way of learning new skills this should then stretch me (to breaking point probs.) in terms of:

1. A better understanding of the aircraft structure, necessary in order to replicate them from scratch.

2. Acquiring the design skills to realize such structures with the software.

3. Gain a feel for the material processes of 3D printing.

4. An unforeseen and unexpected factor that no-one saw coming.

 

Having selected a number of characteristic views of the aircraft I've been playing around with Fusion to get a feel for the various form and profile tools:

Once we get on to things like intakes and swooping boom profiles it'll be another story....

 

I did get as far as outputting a test of the inboard wing section a couple of days back - again to get a feel of how details will look in physical form:

At 0.3mm wall thickness it's actually too thin to be of sufficient strength but good information to have for large planar parts of this nature.

 

It was actually playing around with this design that made me realize that the deviation in chord length and shape of the Frog wing wasn't going to be tenable for me - this printed part matched the scaled dimensions of the actual aircraft in those regions, but not those of the kit. You could either design an individual part (incorrectly) in order to blend in with the kit inaccuracies, (taking both time and leaving you ultimately unsatisfied) or else do the whole thing right from scratch.

 

Know which I'd prefer.

 

I've a few days off still until work resumes so intend continuing for a few days to develop a better familiarity with software processes before beginning any design work in earnest.

 

Not all doom and gloom yesterday. If you're ever in Galway, Charlie Byrne's bookshop should be a mandatory feature of your visit (along with the Ard Bia restaurant down on the quay)

A collection of rooms housing a glorious mixture of new and secondhand volumes: you don't always find something you're after but when you do, like meteors they tend to come in showers:

No help with the Vixen but at least I'll be able to conceal the Skoda in the drive from reconnaissance aircraft...

 

Hope you all have a good weekend, whatever you're doing and whoever you're doing it to/for/with.

Tony