II/.KG54 Unit Emblem & likely camouflage scheme.

[tempestfan]

5 hours ago, Ed Russell said:

Not in Volumes 1-11 although there are a couple of pictures of Ju88s in standard camouflage with the 'Duck in the crosshairs' 4 Staffel emblem.

The Aircam book is #S19 and it isn't there either! it does have a few Ju88 profiles.

As an aside, this book is very good - profiles are accompanied by pictures!

 

The same profile is on the cover of Aircam #S6 but not inside and there is no photo.

Hmmmm... thanks for checking, Ed ! 

[Ed Russell]

I have to amend that post.... not 1-11 but 6-11. I'll have a look in 1-5 in due course.

[SafetyDad]

1 hour ago, Ed Russell said:

I have to amend that post.... not 1-11 but 6-11. I'll have a look in 1-5 in due course.

That photo (if it exists) is running out of places to hide!

 

SD

[brewerjerry]

Hi

    It is of course always possible that a photo may exist in a collection that is only available for research by authors and not for general publishing 

    cheers

      jerry 

[David E. Brown]

Gents,

 

I welcome this thread and the diligence of fellow enthusiasts in seeking original source information to validate a long-and oft-published profile of “B3+PM” of 4./KG 54: 56 years from 1964 when it was first published by Karl Ries Jr. (1963). Obviously he drew upon a photo that could have been in his collection and not published in any of his books, or, it appeared in a book / magazine published prior to 1963 (perhaps in Germany).  Like others, I have not found an image of it in any of the publications noted above nor others in my files.

 

Regarding its camouflage and markings, it is a virtually identical with the above photo of “B3+CM”. This machine would have worn the standard RLM 70/71/65 camouflage scheme over which was applied a coat of white water-based distemper in late 1941 and lasting until spring 1942 when it would have been removed.  That the Air Doc (2005) profile of “B3+PM” illustrates the aircraft’s nose, cowlings and wing leading edges with its original colours exposed supports the interpretation that the lighter colour was a temporary white distemper for winter camouflage.  Now whether this is artistic license on their part, or based on a photo is speculative.

 

The diagonal band behind the wing leading edge is a diagnostic marking for KG 54, with “B3+PM’s” red band is appropriate for its II. Gruppe. Such bands were first seen on Luftwaffe bombers (He 111, Ju 88 and Do 17) in early 1940 and were tactical markings used to identify the Gruppe to which they were assigned in their respective Geschwader:

• Diagonal encircling nose band ahead of the cockpit = KG 2
• Diagonal fuselage band behind the wing trailing edge = KG 54
• Vertical fuselage band behind the wing trailing edge = KG 76

These markings ranged between 10 and 30 cm in width and coloured accordingly:

• blue = Geschwaderstab
• white = I.
• red = II.
• yellow = III.
• blue = IV.
• green = V.

The units appear to have begun phased them out prior to Barbarossa and were seen into the spring of 1942.  They made a reappearance in late 1944 when seen on a number of Me 262s operating with KG(J) 54.

 

The profile of the aircraft shows a white tailband.  It is in the proper position and correct dimensions for the Russian theatre yellow marking.  Without seeing the photo of the aircraft it is unknown why the band was shown as being white.  Perhaps it was overpainted with a fresh application of white that contrasted with a grimier white camouflage paint. My thoughts on the spinner – based on comparison of other contemporary II./KG 54 Ju 88s would be a red tip (II. Gruppe) and white ring (4. Staffel).

 

It is improbable that “B3+PM” was painted in an overall uppersurface colour of RLM 79 Sandgelb. II./KG 54 was not operational in the Mediterranean theatre until 27 October 1942 when it was flying out of Catania, Sicily, with operations over Tunisia and the western Mediterranean to 25 March 1943. Based on the loss listing published by Radtke (1990), the unit was flying Ju 88 A-4s (and later a few A-14s) with virtually all A-5s associated with KG 54’s V. Gruppe (i.e. its operational training unit). Furthermore, that this colour was a light grey is similarly discounted.  The Regia Aeronautica did use a light blue grey (Grigorio Azzurro Chiaro 1) for its S.79 aircraft for several units undertaking aerial torpedo operations and training in the Mediterranean. Photographic evidence shows that the paint adhered well to the aircraft’s forward fuselage, cowlings and wing leading edges and thus not a temporary paint.

 

I believe that “B3+PM” did exist and Karl Ries using a photograph of it to create his profile. It represents an operational machine with 4./KG 54 during the winter of 1941-42 in Russia, and had a temporary white distemper paint applied over its standard factory-applied RLM 70/71 that was showing signs of weathering due to the weather and related operational factors. I welcome further discussion (and evidence!) to learn more about this machine.

 

Cheers,

 

David

 

References

 

Air Documentations (Air Doc), 2005

ADM 72/48011 Junkers Ju 88 Part 3: Ju 88 A, Lehrgeschwader 1, Nahaufklärungsgruppe 1, FFS(B) 34, KG 51 “Edelweiss”, KG 54 “Totenkopf”.

Six page instruction booklet with three decal sheets for 16 aircraft.

 

Radtke, S., 1990

Kampfgeschwader 54 - Von der Ju 52 zur Me 262 - Eine Chronik nach Kreigstagebüchern, Berichten und Documenten. 

Schild Verlag, München, 383p.

 

Ries Jr., K., 1963

Markings and Camouflage Systems of Luftwaffe Aircraft in World War II – Volume 1.

Verlag Dieter Hoffmann., Finthen bei Mainz, 110 p.

 

[Heather Kay]

Wow! I love that my quick-and-dirty build of an old kit has provided this amazing level of detail. Utterly fascinating.

 

The white distemper over standard camouflage colours makes a lot of sense, and if I had been prepared to build the model properly I would have followed that path. As it is, I’m not about to repaint the model. I’m happy, for the Frog group build at least, that it represents the way the kit was probably built and painted back in the day.

 

 

As you can see, B3+PM is happily living on the top shelf of my CD cabinet, accompanied by an Airfix Rotodyne I built for the Airfix Classic GB last year. 

[RudiS]

Hi,

 

I have been doing research into the KG 54 for some time now, so here is what I know about this emblem and the winter camouflage scheme.

 

This emblem was used only by II./KG54 .

- According to Radtke it was used from Oct/Nov 1940 till Oct 1941 (page 55 & 72). After that the normal large grey skull emblem was used again. But Radtke did not join KG 54 untill Oct 1942 so he did not see this emblem himself.

- According to Ketley however this emblem was used from Dec 1939 (which is wrong - it’s was much later then that) till Jun 1942.

The only dateable photos of this emblem I personally have seen so far range from May 1941 till Sep 1941.

 

Except for the photo of B3+CM posted here earlier, I have seen several  other photos of Ju 88 of II./KG54 with the white snow camouflage but I have never seen any of these Ju 88’s carrying the mentioned emblem. See attached photos of B3+RN, B3+AP, B3+CC and B3+IM. But you never know with the Luftwaffe. One day such a photo may turn up.

 

 

 

 

As for the propeller cap: a 5./KG54 Ju 88 would normally NOT have a red propeller cap. The propeller caps of II./KG54 Ju 88’s were black with a small band in the Staffel color: white for 4./KG54, red for 5./KG54 and yellow for 6./KG54.  See attached photo of B3+KN. But as always with the Luftwaffe there were exceptions as you can see on photo of B3+IM.

 

Sources:

Radtke Siegfried: Kampfgeschwader 54 - Von der Ju 52 zur Me 262 - Eine Chronik nach Kreigstagebüchern, Berichten und Documenten

Ketley Barry: Luftwaffe emblems 1939-1945

 

Regards,

Rudi

Edited July 8, 2019 by RudiS
2 photos disappeared

[Graham Boak]

I recall Michael Ullmann saying that one of the frustrations of being a Luftwaffe historian was that the photos used by Karl Reis in his books could no longer be traced.  If so, this must be even more true for unpublished ones he used to produce paintings.

[stevehnz]

Hi @RudiS, thanks very much for sharing these with us. The only photo I have found of a II/,KG.54 aircraft showing the bomb sight over England badge, either on the net or among my admittedly limited Luftwaffe references, was on page 13 of the Osprey book Ju 88 Kampfgeschwader on the Russian front. Reading the same book, it does appear that II/,KG.54 was redeployed back to the Russian front after returning to Germany at the end of 1941, so the Airdoc decals purporting to be from Sardinia look somewhat suspect. Maybe I'm seeing what I want to see but in the photo of B3+CC that you posted, when I blow it up I can maybe think I see a unit badge perhaps with a light distemper wash over it, or not  

BTW, in my first post I said that the Osprey book had the same profile in it, I off course meant similar, being as the profile is of +CC not +PM. Where you talk of propeller cap, do you mean what I might refer to as the spinner or just the front tip of the spinner, ie forward of the white (Light) band on the spinner & what would be you best guess for the colours of these which are shown as red spinner with a white band in the profiles?

Steve.

Edited July 8, 2019 by stevehnz

[SafetyDad]

David and Rudi

 

Thanks to both of you for well-argued and supported contributions here. The details of KG54's operational deployment do seem to lead us away from an overall grey profile, and Rudi's pictures (plus David's points about paint vs distemper adhesion to airframes) add more weight to the likelihood that this airframe is painted in white distemper.

 

Heather; I absolutely agree with you about leaving your model as is. This is entirely in keeping with your build of an older kit - both the plastic and their markings are a product of their time. I have a whole box full of Frog kits somewhere in the loft and would build them as offered.

 

Again, an enjoyable and informative discussion; thanks to all contributors for their comments and contributions

 

SD

[stevehnz]

14 minutes ago, SafetyDad said:

Heather; I absolutely agree with you about leaving your model as is. This is entirely in keeping with your build of an older kit - both the plastic and their markings are a product of their time.

That from me too Heather, no way was this intended to be a criticism of your efforts or the kit, I enjoyed what you did with it. What I'm trying to do here is look beyond the boxart & decals in a way that was almost impossible 40 odd years ago. I'm not sure what I hoped for but I've found it darn interesting & it has extended to boundaries of my knowledge of this era quite a bit.

Steve.

[RudiS]

9 hours ago, stevehnz said:

Maybe I'm seeing what I want to see but in the photo of B3+CC that you posted, when I blow it up I can maybe think I see a unit badge perhaps with a light distemper wash over it, or not  

BTW, in my first post I said that the Osprey book had the same profile in it, I off course meant similar, being as the profile is of +CC not +PM. Where you talk of propeller cap, do you mean what I might refer to as the spinner or just the front tip of the spinner, ie forward of the white (Light) band on the spinner & what would be you best guess for the colours of these which are shown as red spinner with a white band in the profiles?

Steve.

Here is a better scan of the cockpit area of B3+CC. I don't think I can see an emblem. 

 

And yes, I did mean the whole spinner when I wrote propellor cap. As for the spinner in the profile, normally a 4./KG54 a/c should have a black spinner with a white band and not a red spinner with a white band. On a black and white photo it's very difficult to see the difference between red and black so it's easy to make this mistake.

 

Regards,

Rudi