Andre B Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 (edited) I'm a little confused of the F-4S "Tactical Schemes" used on US Navy aircraft's. Did they differ or where they the same colours from top to bottom? I've found different information regarding this. FS-35327, FS-36230 and FS-36375 (JPSmodell "Tactical Scheme). FS-36118, FS-3270 and FS-36375 (Esci F-4S) FS-36375, FS-36495 and FS-36622 (Superscale decals 72-441) It seems strange with FS 36375 (Light Ghost Grey?) on top and in the next paintinstruction find FS-36375 on the bortom. I don't knew how much the US Navy and the Air Force share paints and experiences. But the paints sugested for the EsciErtl RF-4C (9121) was FS-36118 Gunship Grey and FS-36270 Neutral Grey (?). What is accurate? I have one F-4S intended for VF-74 and one RF-4C... https://www.aviationgraphic.com/aviation-lithographs/2547-f-4s-phantom-ii-vf-74-be-devilers-1982-mb-54p.html Cheers / André Edited June 27, 2019 by Andre B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e8n2 Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 6 hours ago, Andre B said: I'm a little confused of the F-4S "Tactical Schemes" used on US Navy aircraft's. Did they differ or where they the same colours from top to bottom? I've found different information regarding this. FS-35327, FS-36230 and FS-36375 (JPSmodell "Tactical Scheme). Cheers / André According to Mil-Std_2161A(AS) dated 1 May 1993, the JPS Model Tactical Scheme is correct. Superscale, and their predecessor Micro Scale, always managed to screw things up at times and their color call outs for the tactical scheme is just one example of this. Later, Dave 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junchan Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 Here're the relevant pages from Mil-Std-2161A (AS). Jun in Tokyo https://www.flickr.com/photos/horaburo/albums 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT7567 Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 As the other replies indicated, the "official" TPS scheme for Phantoms is 35237/36320/36375, however it's worth noting that before this scheme was formalized there were a large number of variations - official or otherwise - that used different color combinations and/or patterns. TPS on Navy & Marine aircraft is also notorious for weathering, so it's possible some of the varied color callouts reflect a "transitional" scheme, and/or an approximation of the colors after fading. I'll go with Occam's Razor on this and say the likely explanation is Ertl and Superscale making errors. For the RF-4C, note as a USAF aircraft this was under a different standard (T.O. 1-1-4). The gray scheme for Phantoms was developed at Hill AFB along with the first service scheme for the F-16, hence the unofficial name "Hill Gray" (also occasionally nicknamed "Egyptian I"). The initial scheme used three grays (36118/36270/36375) however Phantoms seem to have moved fairly quickly to "Hill Gray II" which elminated 36375 and revised the pattern to "mirror" the darker gray (36118) on the underside. Official pattern from T.O. 1-1-4 is below - note officially the colors are listed as 26118/26270, which are semigloss versions of 36118/36270. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre B Posted June 27, 2019 Author Share Posted June 27, 2019 (edited) One problem I noticed was the colours of decals. As insignia and lettering was painted with the same paints as the fuselage the decals doesn't always have the accurate "shades of grey". One thing that doesn't make it easy to build an late VF-74 Phantom... By the way I like the way Cybermodeller showing schemes and colours and take some toughts on different brands , fading and/or scaleeffect. Making an choise of RAF colours (Hu 126 / Hu 165) possible? Hill Grey 1 https://www.cybermodeler.com/aircraft/f-4/f-4_profile04.shtml Also noticed that FS-36622 is an somewhat difficult shade of grey to get manufactured only by Testor (?). Almost as FS-16473... SEA Camouflage https://www.cybermodeler.com/aircraft/f-4/f-4_profile02.shtml Cheers / André Edited June 27, 2019 by Andre B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iainpeden Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 The F-4S (albeit without the leading edge slats) at East Fortune is in light gull gray overall, VF-301 had Ss in a 4 gray Heater-Ferris splinter scheme and I seem to remember VX-4 had an S as a Black Bunny. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre B Posted June 27, 2019 Author Share Posted June 27, 2019 I've had my F-4S in the stash for years. It was a "follow on" for my VF-74 F-4B and F-4J. I also built the Italeri VF-302 F-4S. I don't dare to say how many F-4 Phantom's I have in my stash. Usually I build one or two when I have the accurate paints and decals. As the with P-51D Mustang one can always have one more Phantom Cheers / André 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT7567 Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 3 hours ago, Andre B said: One problem I noticed was the colours of decals. As insignia and lettering was painted with the same paints as the fuselage the decals doesn't always have the accurate "shades of grey". One thing that doesn't make it easy to build an late VF-74 Phantom... This is an excellent point about a lot of TPS schemes - it's even worse when the markings actually span a color transition and reverse colors (light on dark/dark on light). If you don't have decals yet (or have concerns about their colors), Cut Then add has a sheet "Phantom Shades of Gray" that includes a VF-74 bird from 1982 with all markings in dark gray (roughly FS36118). I don't have this sheet personally but I recently purchased their RF-4B set and it looks good. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre B Posted June 27, 2019 Author Share Posted June 27, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, CT7567 said: If you don't have decals yet (or have concerns about their colors), Cut Then add has a sheet "Phantom Shades of Gray" that includes a VF-74 bird from 1982... Cut Then Add? Never heard of them. I had an idea of using decals from several decalmakers including decals from the mentioned Superscale decals. But if there is "Grey" VF-74 F-4S decals available the task seems much simplier... Any Links? Cheers / André Edited June 27, 2019 by Andre B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre B Posted June 27, 2019 Author Share Posted June 27, 2019 (edited) Found the CTA decals. Available from Hannant's! https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/CTA-023 With respect for the colours of those decals we now have following paints for an TPS F-4S (?). FS 35237 Medium Grey Hu 145 FS 36220 Dark Ghost Grey Hu 128 FS 36375 Light Ghost Grey Hu 127 https://www.cybermodeler.com/aircraft/f-4/f-4_profile01.shtml /André Edited June 27, 2019 by Andre B 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT7567 Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 1 hour ago, Andre B said: Cut Then add? Never heard of them. I has an idea of using decals from several decalmakers including decals mentioned Superscale decals. But if there is "Grey" VF-74 F-4S decals available the task seems much simplier... Any Links? Cheers / André Glad you found them Andre, and apologies for not including the link in my earlier post. For anyone else interested, CTA's site is linked below: https://ctamodels.com Navigation is a bit cumbersome as their products don't seem to have numbers and the catalog updates as new items are added and/or older sheets go out of stock, but I had no issues ordering using PayPal and their printing looks good (haven't used them yet). 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre B Posted June 27, 2019 Author Share Posted June 27, 2019 12 minutes ago, CT7567 said: Glad you found them Andre, and apologies for not including the link in my earlier post. For anyone else interested, CTA's site is linked below: https://ctamodels.com Navigation is a bit cumbersome as their products don't seem to have numbers and the catalog updates as new items are added and/or older sheets go out of stock, but I had no issues ordering using PayPal and their printing looks good (haven't used them yet). No apologies. How should you knew? Now I almost have no excuses left to not to start the build! This had been an ongoing build since 1992 when I got the book Phantom, Spirit in the Skies by John Lake. It's time to glue some parts toghether and paint them now! Cheers / André Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whiskey Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 Doesn't include VF-74, but Furball still offers a whole sheet of F-4S' in TPS. https://www.furballaero-design.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=48-063 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT7567 Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 1 hour ago, whiskey said: Doesn't include VF-74, but Furball still offers a whole sheet of F-4S' in TPS. https://www.furballaero-design.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=48-063 Which is great if you build 1/48, but they haven't seen fit to scale this (or most of their other catalog) down to 1/72 😕 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whiskey Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 1 hour ago, CT7567 said: Which is great if you build 1/48, but they haven't seen fit to scale this (or most of their other catalog) down to 1/72 😕 I was under the impression that the original poster was referring to 1/48 in his question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre B Posted June 28, 2019 Author Share Posted June 28, 2019 11 hours ago, whiskey said: I was under the impression that the original poster was referring to 1/48 in his question. Sorry, only 1/72 scale... Cheers / André Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana Bell Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 Hi Andre, There were two versions of the Tactical Paint Scheme (TPS) used on F-4s. The first test version was 35237 on top, 36495 below, and 36375 in between. The scheme was used on the following aircraft from VF-103: 153855, -862, -872, -877, -887, 155519, -735, -747, -767, -784, -812, -829, 157245, and -257. (Many of those aircraft were subsequently transferred to VF-171.) An unrecorded number of VMF-312 aircraft also tested the scheme. The approved TPS was darker for F-4s. Upper surfaces were still 35237, but the sides were switched to 36320 and undersides to 36375. Nearly every TPS Phantom wore this combination. There's one other issue on the TPS colors. Some government flunky at the General Services Administration changed the colors standards when creating the B version of FS 595, and some of the changed colors were used in the TPS. The two major US paint suppliers were Deft and deSoto, one of which matched their paints to FS 595a (which is what the military wanted) and the other to FS 595b. Repaints and touch-ups rarely matched, and two aircraft newly repainted in TPS might not look anything like each other. Adventures in modeling! Find the paints that best work for you and enjoy the hobby! Cheers, Dana 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre B Posted June 29, 2019 Author Share Posted June 29, 2019 (edited) 8 hours ago, Dana Bell said: Hi Andre, There were two versions of the Tactical Paint Scheme (TPS) used on F-4s. The first test version was 35237 on top, 36495 below, and 36375 in between. The scheme was used on the following aircraft from VF-103: 153855, -862, -872, -877, -887, 155519, -735, -747, -767, -784, -812, -829, 157245, and -257. (Many of those aircraft were subsequently transferred to VF-171.) An unrecorded number of VMF-312 aircraft also tested the scheme. The approved TPS was darker for F-4s. Upper surfaces were still 35237, but the sides were switched to 36320 and undersides to 36375. Nearly every TPS Phantom wore this combination. There's one other issue on the TPS colors. Some government flunky at the General Services Administration changed the colors standards when creating the B version of FS 595, and some of the changed colors were used in the TPS. The two major US paint suppliers were Deft and deSoto, one of which matched their paints to FS 595a (which is what the military wanted) and the other to FS 595b. Repaints and touch-ups rarely matched, and two aircraft newly repainted in TPS might not look anything like each other. Adventures in modeling! Find the paints that best work for you and enjoy the hobby! Cheers, Dana Thanks Dana, I had a tought that it was something like that as there where so many differences between the TPS Phantom's... Cheers / André Edited June 29, 2019 by Andre B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iainpeden Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 If you want more F-4S schemes check out Old Viper Tester's photos here. https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235057350-green-flag-81-3-vf-302/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT7567 Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 5 hours ago, iainpeden said: If you want more F-4S schemes check out Old Viper Tester's photos here. https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235057350-green-flag-81-3-vf-302/ Live link: https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235057350-green-flag-81-3-vf-302/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre B Posted June 30, 2019 Author Share Posted June 30, 2019 Thanks... Now I only have fond accurate paints for an VF-74 F-S. I seems that I had to get some Testor paints... Cheers / André Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark V Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 (edited) I just went through this myself a few months ago. I was building the Italeri 1/72nd F-4S in TPS with VMFA-112 out of Dallas, Texas for a friend who was a RIO there. The sun fade on the colors was pretty drastic so depending on how new the paint was it could vary quite a bit from original. Also, as stated previously, the decal grays are usually not correct. In my case the kit decals and a Superscale set I found. The grays weren’t “blue” enough. I opted to print my own decals, which I still couldn’t get quite right. Overall it’s a difficult scheme to get to look just right. I used Testors Model Master paints, but had to lighten the 35237 since it’s too dark out of the bottle. I used 36495 for the mid tone, and a lightened version of 36495 for the underside. The contrast looks a bit enhanced in the photo. My RIO friend was very appreciative and said it’s pretty close to reality. Well, the photo doesn’t show as I type this on my iPad. I will try to add it from my desktop computer later today. Added from Flickr? As you can see the tail markings and "MARINES" should be closer to the same color as the darker (35237) camo. Oh well, better luck next time... I tried to match decals to paint. Next time I'll do the decals first then work the paint to match. Edited July 3, 2019 by Mark V Added photo. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre B Posted July 3, 2019 Author Share Posted July 3, 2019 Hi Mark, I think you are right about matching paint till decals to get the better look of the kit. I try to order the VF-74 decals. And after that choose what paints to use. Cheers / André Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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