Sink the Bismarck! HMS Ark Royal, 26 May 1941

[Terry1954]

2 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

Styrene, however, wins because it can be cut consistently using my indispensable scratch building tool... The Chopper... this:

That does look like a neat bit of kit. Can I ask where you obtained that?

 

Terry

[Teuchter]

Great build and reference work. I built the Airfix one years ago, not to this level of detail, simpler times. I notice that between the 'sepia' pic and the last pic there now seem to be 2 of those cylinders, and they seem to be moved forward of the swan neck structure that is something to do with the Carley floats? Or is it just the viewpoint?

Don

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

7 hours ago, Terry1954 said:

That does look like a neat bit of kit. Can I ask where you obtained that?

 

Terry

I can’t remember exactly, but search for “NWSL Chopper II” and it comes up in several places.

2 minutes ago, Teuchter said:

I notice that between the 'sepia' pic and the last pic there now seem to be 2 of those cylinders, and they seem to be moved forward of the swan neck structure that is something to do with the Carley floats? Or is it just the viewpoint?

I think it’s just the viewpoint, but I wouldn’t put my house on it - though to my mind the apparent movement probably proves that though it looks as though it’s next to the swan-neck (which is the attachment for the float, as you say), in fact it is further inboard.  But I don’t know for sure!

 

In view of what the plans say, I reckon it’s either something to do with the crash barrier hydraulics or the (Met) balloon filling station, which was underneath the Pom-Pom platform.  

[foeth]

You have the NWL chopper that is ok (flimsy hinge you need to replace) or a version by RP toolz (http://www.rptoolz.com/?lang=en). I have no experience with it but the hinge looks good enough. The adjustable angles do not have a very accurate reading and how they handled the adjustable stop compared to the NWL makes it pretty useless for me, but it may suit your needs. I own a few on the RP-toolz' Punch & die set and these are much better than the Historex or Waldron sets.

 

[Modelholic]

In the pics in posts #98 and 146 the sqare scuttles (deadlights?) are opening outwards. In the pic in post 200 (stbd amidships) I can see no evidence of them.

Could they have been removed?

Tom

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

22 minutes ago, Modelholic said:

In the pics in posts #98 and 146 the sqare scuttles (deadlights?) are opening outwards. In the pic in post 200 (stbd amidships) I can see no evidence of them.

Could they have been removed?

Tom

Don’t think so; those photos are of different parts of the ship, and there were (at least) 2 different types of rectangular opening. The ones at the stern (which were from officers’ cabins, WR stores & similar) opened, as the photos show, and also had ladder rungs above and below them (clearly visible in 146, the view from the starboard quarter).  I don’t know what these ladders to nowhere were for.  They were definitely not removed, because you can see at least one of them open as she sinks...

 

The other type, including the midships ones I’ve just added, seem to have been something to do with galleys; these are marked “Upper Galley” on the plans, and there are similar openings further aft for the WR Galley.  I assume they opened to assist with ventilation, but that’s a guess.

 

[Edit]. You can see both types in this photo, albeit they’re in shadow so the difference is not 100% obvious.  Low down, one deck above the quarterdeck openings, you can see at least 4 of the “ladder” type, all open.  Higher up, level with the boat deck and below the Vickers gun sponson, are two others; these are the “galley” type, with no ladder.

 

Edited August 29, 2019 by Ex-FAAWAFU

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

28 minutes ago, foeth said:

You have the NWL chopper that is ok (flimsy hinge you need to replace) or a version by RP toolz (http://www.rptoolz.com/?lang=en). I have no experience with it but the hinge looks good enough. The adjustable angles do not have a very accurate reading and how they handled the adjustable stop compared to the NWL makes it pretty useless for me, but it may suit your needs. I own a few on the RP-toolz' Punch & die set and these are much better than the Historex or Waldron sets.

 

I have the NWSL Chopper II, which has a pretty robust hinge (unlike the Mk.1 version, of which I have only seen pictures).  The hinge is visible in the photo I posted, in fact.  You’re right about the angle markings, but I’d always measure those using something more accurate anyway.

Edit: one of these:

 

I too have RP Toolz punch & die sets (3, I think, of varying gauges) which (like all P & D sets, I assume because of the precision required if they are to be any good) are a gulp-inducing price... but which are indispensable and will last the rest of my modelling life.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Ex-FAAWAFU

[foeth]

I try to work very precise and the original Chopper II hinge was too sloppy to my taste; too much sideway motion. To be fair, could be just the one I bought though... (unlikely). I had the guys at our workshop make me a new hinge and now it works really well. When I use my chopper I use a lot of templates that you can clamp down with these screw clamps; the RP Toolz doesn't have that, so I wouldn't be able to use it the way I do now... also, the adjustable stop on the RP toolz cutter doesn't rotate with the... er... fences? Looks like a nice try but badly thought out...

 

I do recommend setting the right distance using calipers for either model:

 

http://ontheslipway.com/?p=90

 

So very easy to work consistently. I do make notes and it will be very easy to reproduce parts! The above is an old post, showing my earlier chopper (that I no longer use. Edit; I have the one you have in the post above too); but for very thin sheets I still put something hard on the cutting mat or you'll just end up folding rather than cutting.

 

The punch & die set is a bit expensive but I use them very often. Making small discs is nearly impossible without them. When you are in the 2-4mm range a circle cutter won't work and a lathe has trouble making thin discs out of styrene.

Edited August 29, 2019 by foeth

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

I agree with all of that!  

 

By the way, has the @foeth Hood build done the sounding machine yet?  There are some decent drawings in the 1937 Seamanship Manual, but I’ll take plagiarism over original work every time if it’s your stuff I’m plagiarising!  I’m just interested to see how you tackled it (if you have yet).

 

Ark’s was just ahead of the island to starboard, so roughly in the area I’m doing at present.  Mind you, I won’t get round to adding that until after the hull had been glued together / flight deck added.  Which will be sometime next year at this rate, so there is not exactly a rush...

[foeth]

I built one in (oh dear) 2008

 

https://ontheslipway.com/?p=244

 

I didn't have the manual of seamanship back then; would have saved me a lot of searchwork...  not sure if I remade them later... have to look in my box of tiny parts that are waiting for assembly.

[Terry1954]

3 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

I can’t remember exactly, but search for “NWSL Chopper II” and it comes up in several places.

Thanks Crisp, and yes searching on the full name came up with loads of US suppliers, but then I found a German supplier which looks fine, although it appears to be made from aluminium, whereas your's doesn't look that way:

 

 

Seems to be the same thing though. I think I need to get one of these or the RP Toolz version!

 

Terry

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

1 hour ago, foeth said:

I built one in (oh dear) 2008

 

https://ontheslipway.com/?p=244

 

I didn't have the manual of seamanship back then; would have saved me a lot of searchwork...  not sure if I remade them later... have to look in my box of tiny parts that are waiting for assembly.

Brilliant; thanks.  That gives me some ideas.  I’m at work now so don’t have the Manual to hand, but I’d say yours is pretty convincing for the scale... put it this way; if mine comes out looking anything like that, I'll be chuffed to bits.  

 

Incidentally, I was reading On The Slipway a few days ago and came across your work on the flag lockers.  Superb!  Making the whole compass platform / flag deck / flyco / lookout / Pom-Pom sights area look convincing is going to be a challenge, I think, though I have some help from North Star’s RN bridge equipment set - even a teeny PE Captain’s chair...

[foeth]

Thanks The lockers were a fun thing to do. Ka models even borrowed this idea for their set 1:1. Always good to know that at least one person read your blog 😁 Finding all these bridge equipment things was fun to do, even though you get the feeling (or know damn certain) you are finding out what other modelers (e.g. Ough/Haynes ) have known for ages. But anyway, putting it on the web probably has helped making these factoids more accessible! The North Star set looks quite nice and the equipment was quite generic as far as I can tell. Good thing the Ark doesn't have UP launches because I've not managed to find out what these look like!

 

The manual is really a must-have reference if you like RN modeling; very glad someone once told me to get one!

 

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

2 hours ago, foeth said:

...UP launchers...

**shudder**.  Does anyone really know how those things worked [or rather didn’t work] and/or what they looked like in any kind of detail?  

 

They have always struck me very much as in the “what the Hell were they thinking??” category - yet they were actually fitted to some major capital ships, so someone must have thought they were a good thing.

[ArnoldAmbrose]

Gidday, I've always thought UP (launchers) stood for 'Unguided Projectiles' or something similar. AFAIK they were solid-fuel AA rockets and I've read somewhere in the dark distant past that Prinz Eugen's first hit on the Hood ignited these amidships, hence the first flash of flame seen from Prince of Wales. If anyone knows otherwise I am happy to be corrected. I would imagine that they weren't very effective in combat - they were removed quite early in the war, although (obviously) Hood carried hers to her watery grave.

     I've seen a diagram of one with the operator, although I don't have it now. The rockets were in a large rectangular box, angled upwards on the mounting, with the operator alongside it. Not much detail to them, so on this occasion Airfix's quite basic rendition of the weapon is reasonably accurate I think. I wish to modify an Airfix HMS Hood (about 1932 I think) into the 1941 configuration, and I got my UP mounts from a KGV kit.

3 hours ago, foeth said:

Always good to know that at least one person read your blog

You people (and those like you) who do extensive research for your models and are pedantic with your detail are gold-mines for modelers like me. I know my models will never be in the same league as yours but I still like to get them as accurate as my scale (1/600) and limited skill will allow and you all help considerably, maybe without even knowing it. My thanks to all of you for sharing your knowledge on the forums. Regards, Jeff.

[Modelholic]

I think UP was Unrotated Projectile

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_UP.php

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

Thanks, but I think you misunderstood me.  I know perfectly well what UP stood for and what was supposed to happen.  My question was more about what exactly the designers were smoking when they drew them up.  

 

Plus, though I have never built a model of a ship that had them fitted, reading the blogs etc. of those who have suggests that there’s still a lot that isn’t understood

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

Anyway.  Back to the Ark.

 

This evening I decided I needed a change from brass scuttles, so I moved into the boat bays.  The very first thing I glued on this build, already many weeks ago, was some brass inside the starboard double gallery thingy, so I carried on with that (i.e. not everything you see here was done today).

 

The bay furthest forward is where the paravanes were (& I have some lovely little North Star paravanes destined for that very bulkhead).  And paravanes need a davit and a 3-ton winch to deploy them.  The kit does actually come with the davits (kind of; mine will be a Tetra improvement), but of winch there is no sign.  Indeed, OOB the bays are completely empty, which def needs remedying in my book.

 

So here’s a beautiful wee North Star resin & PE 3-ton paravane winch, with a scalpel blade for scale:

 

...and the other side:

 

And here it is fitted, along with a pair of L’Arsenal bollards.  The winch & bollards are glued, but the gallery just taped - though it fits perfectly.  The (lower) opening astern of the paravanes is where the for’d boat boom and accommodation ladder sits.  And above them, from right to left (bow to stern): beef screen, vegetable store and potato store.  The joy of builders’ plans!

 

Finally, since it’s almost the weekend so this will be my last posting until Monday, here’s the starboard side as a whole:

 

Happy modelling!  More soon

 

Crisp

Edited August 29, 2019 by Ex-FAAWAFU

[Courageous]

That paravane winch looks beautiful but very small. Unless you're looking for it, it gets lost among all the other detail work. Great work, have a great weekend.

 

Stuart

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

I wouldn’t go so far as to say that’s the idea, but it definitely kinda goes with the territory when you’re adding detail to a large aircraft carrier.  Obviously you can’t (well, normal mortals can’t, & I know my limitations) reproduce absolutely everything in this scale - every aircraft chock, discarded lashing, helmet locker, unused awning stantion - but to my eyes many (even most) warship models just aren’t busy enough.  It’s one of the reasons I’m not a huge fan of 1/700.  

 

Real ships - especially 75 years ago - are covered in... stuff, so that the overall effect, even seen from a fair distance, is of clutter and things being crammed in, as opposed to vast expanses of flat, open, unsullied deck.  

 

That forwardmost opening (with the winch) is a case in point.  Out of the box it’s simply empty.  In reality it had two paravanes in it (stowed on the inner bulkhead), a large fairlead, a berthing bollard, a hawser reel and a 3-ton winch (probably a good 10’ long, and chunky).   And that’s before we go anywhere near upper deck broadcast, fire mains, wiring etc.  

 

What I’m trying to do is to convey the impression of busy, purposeful activity.  Let’s face it, most people who look at the model won’t get beyond a flight deck full of Stringbags, but I love models where every time you look at them you notice something new.  

 

So I don’t actually want the winch to stand out - it’s completely fine that it gets lost unless you’re looking for it.  That means I’m getting there!

[longshanks]

19 minutes ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

I wouldn’t go so far as to say that’s the idea, but it definitely kinda goes with the territory when you’re adding detail to a large aircraft carrier.  Obviously you can’t (well, normal mortals can’t, & I know my limitations) reproduce absolutely everything in this scale - every aircraft chock, discarded lashing, helmet locker, unused awning stantion - but to my eyes many (even most) warship models just aren’t busy enough.  It’s one of the reasons I’m not a huge fan of 1/700.  

 

Real ships - especially 75 years ago - are covered in... stuff, so that the overall effect, even seen from a fair distance, is of clutter and things being crammed in, as opposed to vast expanses of flat, open, unsullied deck.  

 

That forwardmost opening (with the winch) is a case in point.  Out of the box it’s simply empty.  In reality it had two paravanes in it (stowed on the inner bulkhead), a large fairlead, a berthing bollard, a hawser reel and a 3-ton winch (probably a good 10’ long, and chunky).   And that’s before we go anywhere near upper deck broadcast, fire mains, wiring etc.  

 

What I’m trying to do is to convey the impression of busy, purposeful activity.  Let’s face it, most people who look at the model won’t get beyond a flight deck full of Stringbags, but I love models where every time you look at them you notice something new.  

 

So I don’t actually want the winch to stand out - it’s completely fine that it gets lost unless you’re looking for it.  That means I’m getting there!

 

I've been watching this build with interest and awe

Every time I catch up I've thought just how far are you taking this .  . . .

I now understand your rationale and I'm completely on board with your thought processes 

I feel a museum quality build is on its way

 

Kev

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

Further to my previous post, if you want to know the sort of effect I’m striving for, check out @andrewa‘s superb Hermes, Yarmouth & Broadsword build [linked below].  It’s a wonderful piece of work, in my opinion - the best build I have ever seen on this forum (though a couple of aircraft come close).  

 

More of a point, that’s what a real working aircraft carrier looks like: 

 

- There are lots of people visible - and not just on the flight deck; there are weapons crews, lookouts, the team preparing for the RAS - for all I know the lifebuoy ghost is sneaking a crafty fag.

- The catwalks are full of... stuff; hose reels, AFFF canisters, unidentified indeterminate lockers, etc.  

- The attention to detail is important; every aircraft is properly lashed down, the flight deck jerseys are appropriate colours, the SATCOM “dustbin” is pointing at a plausible angle (rather than just fore & aft, as in 99% of models)

- Andrew scratch built numerous pieces of flight deck equipment (because no modern deck looks convincing without it, and all the commercially produced AM stuff is American, so wrong for Hermes’ deck).

- And the sea looks like real sea, with convincing confused wash / wave patterns (real ships don’t actually produce 3 or 4 neat perfect Vs, as so often shown, and the South Atlantic really is that dirty dark grey-ish blue).

- All of these items are important in themselves, but wouldn’t be sufficient on their own.  But together they combine to produce a 100% convincing whole.  That’s what I’m after; individual tiny paravane winches aren’t the point - it’s everything together.

 

I’ve never met Andrew (that I know of!), and my only knowledge of this build is through what I have read on here.  But without ever talking to him I know for certain that this must have taken many, many, many weeks of research, planning, studying photos, trying things and discarding them...  which is exactly the process I am going through now.

 

It’s not going to happen in a few weeks, but if my Ark 3 build ends up anywhere near as convincing as Andrew’s Hermes, I’ll be chuffed to bits.  So if you want to know what I mean when I say I’m aiming for a look of “busy, purposeful activity”, then take a look at this:

 

 

Edited August 30, 2019 by Ex-FAAWAFU

[Terry1954]

4 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

Obviously you can’t (well, normal mortals can’t, & I know my limitations) reproduce absolutely everything in this scale - every aircraft chock, discarded lashing, helmet locker, unused awning stantion - but to my eyes many (even most) warship models just aren’t busy enough.  It’s one of the reasons I’m not a huge fan of 1/700.  

 

I'm totally with you on that concept, and I agree that example you posted above of @andrewa's work is simply superb, right at the top of the game. 

 

Some time ago I discovered another modeller by the name of Dr Gyorgy Pek who produced quite simply stunning models in 1/700, really showing what could be done: This is an example showing HMS Brilliant, but I would encourage you to look at this page http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery/ff/hms/brilliant-700-gp/gp-index.html and check out the pictures down the left hand side. Those towards the bottom show construction.

 

 

This is without doubt an example of the best I have ever seen in 1/700.

 

In my early modelling years I could never get to this standard, so I never really built many ships, as I just couldn't make them look busy or realistic enough. Now I'm back in the hobby seriously, I will attempt some ships in the future (I'm actually building a very small minesweeper at present), but I doubt I'll ever get to this level of perfection, but Andrew and Gyorgy are definitely an inspiring influence........

 

.... as are you! Your Ark build is definitely a masterpiece in the making, and I'm learning much as we go. I might actually start a WIP on that small minesweeper I mentioned, but I need to press on with the Vopser too!

 

Terry

 

 

 

 

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

Wow!  That’s stunning; as someone who served in both Boxer (as a Fish-head) and Broadsword (as Flight Commander), I know the Type 22 very well from a lot of angles, and that’s fantastic.  The cable deck alone is worth the price of admission, and details like the UAA1 aerials are great.  Having ship’s crests on the Type 910 radar dishes is just taking the mickey!  They must be minute.  

 

[Mind you, put that AB on the fwd Seawolf launcher deck on a charge; they’re supposed to be at attention, not waving their arms about like a bunch of grockles]

 

It can definitely be done in 1/700, as models like that amply prove - but I’m 60 at the end of this year, and my eyes are just not what they were - not to mention my hands; it’s 22 years tomorrow since I was invalided out of the RN with psoriatic arthritis.  So it’s 1/350 for me (& 1/48 for flying things).  I’d be incredibly tempted by an RN carrier in 1/200, but it took several decades to get a 1/350 one, so my breath is not held.  Just as well; sneaking a 1/200 box past the Mrs would surely be impossible.

 

Which ‘sweeper are you building?  I have long term (post retirement!) plans to scratch build a 1/350 Blackwater, my first (and only floating) command.  There’s never, ever going to be a kit of the 1980s Rivers, so it has to come down to my own efforts.  In the long run I plan to build a model of every ship in which I served, which means that Peter Hall (“Mad Pete” of Atlantic Models) is my friend; he has already produced superb 1/350 kits of Glamorgan (mine will be Norfolk) and Cleopatra (mine as Dido, Ikara Leander, built but awaiting paint), and both Broadsword and Boxer are fairly imminent (I’ve seen the hull masters in photos on Facebook).  

 

That leaves Ark Royal 5 (an existing build / conversion from the Airfix Lusty, currently on long term hold), Fearless (“watch this space” is all I will say) and Blackwater.  I also served in London for about a week (she was promptly sold to Pakistan so I moved to Norfolk... only for her to be sold to Chile... so I was moved to Fearless and ended up in a war)... but I think I’ll skip a second DLG.

 

And yes, your sweeper definitely deserves a WIP

[ArnoldAmbrose]

21 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

Thanks, but I think you misunderstood me.  I know perfectly well what UP stood for and what was supposed to happen.  My question was more about what exactly the designers were smoking when they drew them up.  

Oops, sorry about that!

 

Your Ark is looking very good, and I agree with your comments about clutter on board. When I did HMS Penelope 1944 a few years ago I managed to get some photos of the midship section - stuff everywhere! And again with my current build, a photo of midships HMS Bellona shows a profusion of lockers, reels, racks etc. Like you I'm trying to replicate this affect, but in 1/600 I'll never achieve your standards.

     I love those paravane winches. I needed two and not knowing what they looked like I took an educated guess. I think what I scratch-built crudely looks plausible (a bit, sort of .  .  .) I wish I saw yours a few days ago. Oh well .  .  .

     I think you're doing a superb job on this model. Regards, Jeff.