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Sink the Bismarck! HMS Ark Royal, 26 May 1941


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No, they don’t say what those are, Dave.  They refer to something in that area called the “Admiral’s stern light”, but that’s not a term I recognise (speaking as a 70s-90s sailor, rather than 40s), so I’m none the wiser - and since the view in question is from side-on, it’s not 100% certain whether the ‘Admiral’s stern light’ is even one of those things you’re referring to - the line is a bit vague.  [There was apparently a Lewis gun post right by that light on the catwalk, which I imagine would have felt unbelievably exposed in action!].

 

It is possible that they are an early / primitive form of horizon bar, given their location - that was my immediate thought, in my WAFU’s hat.  The plans show numerous lights let into the deck for night flying, showing obstructions and what later generations would call the “wing tip safety line”.  Glorious & Courageous had done a lot of important work developing procedures for night flying during the early 30s, and the lessons were incorporated into Ark’s design.  Even if not a form of horizon bar, it would make sense to have lights showing where the round down started; there was definitely a row of lights in the deck showing its for’d edge (i.e. where it started to be safe to land!), cos they’re marked on the plans.

 

But I don’t know; I’m simply speculating, based on the things that were in place on her carrier descendants a few decades later.  These guys were writing the book that people like me used a generation later. 

 

 

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13 hours ago, iang said:

 

912f2fbe-90f5-47bb-adde-9a26dd6aadf7.jpg

I agree; having thought about it overnight I think it (they) have to be fog lights.  Dave’s completely right that the circular thing doesn't look like any navigation light (wrong shape, no bearing constraint).  The drawings are adamant, but not 100% clear (having looked again); the “lower stern light” label could refer to something next to the circular thing.  That bracket visible below the drum-shaped thing?  Could that be a nav light?  If I repeat the view from right astern from a couple of pages ago...

Ark Royal stern detail (?painting?)

 

Interestingly, the upper light [“Admiral’s”??] doesn’t appear in this pic... but the adjacent bracket does, and more importantly there is also something that looks very like a plausible stern light just next to the 3 mysterious lights on the catwalk. 

 

I have no idea why you’d put a stern light that high above the waterline; does that count as “as nearly as practicable at the stern”?  I don’t even know whether 1940s navigation lights were the same as 1980s ones.  The ‘International Regulations...’ [“Rule of the Road”] that I once knew by heart date from 1972.  Before that I assume RN ships would have followed the practice of the 1848 Steam Navigation Act.  Was that essentially the same (22.5 degrees abaft the beam, etc etc)?

 

ANYWAY... before we all lose the will to live, it’s definitely a light... of some sort...  either navigation or fog... 

 

And I’m now much clearer that there was a hole behind (ahead of!) it, not obvious from the pictures I’d seen before.

Edited by Ex-FAAWAFU
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Generally speaking all large vessels have two fog lights. I've seen more modern vessels with exactly the same type of light; even made a small collage once

 

Fog_Light.jpg

 

Edited by foeth
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7 hours ago, foeth said:

Generally speaking all large vessels have two fog lights

I don't dispute that large Royal Navy warships carried two fog lights during this period, but in best part of 40 years at sea in large vessels I've never seen one.

There are no fog lights specified in IRPCS (other than switching on the appropriate standard navigation lights), only sound signals from fog horn, ships bell (forward) and fog gong (aft).

Given that there are two of them, on the centre line, one above the other and one forward of the other, could these be for station keeping in reduced visibility when steaming line astern? Something a naval ship would be expected to do, but wouldn't be commom practice for a merchantman?

 

Regarding the other lights, Ross Watton's "Anatomy of the Ship" on Victorious gives a stern profile of her in 1943 with a lighting setup closely resembling those shown in the photo of the stern of Ark Royal posted by Crisp above.

The 3 lights in a row across the stern just below the flightdeck are marked as "Admiral's Lights"

The light slightly below and to starboard of centreline is marked as "Stern Light"

The light slightly below and to port of centreline is marked as "Overtaking Light"

The Fog Light on Victorious is slightly to port of the Stern and Overtaking Lights

A Lower Stern Light is carried on a bracket mounted out over the stern at mooring deck level.

Behind (forward of) the bracket is what could be either another slightly larger Fog light or a circular fairlead, the photo's aren't sufficently clear to determine.

By Jan 1958 the lower sternlight and fog light/fairlead had been removed, but the upper sternlight/fog light/ overtaking light are mounted on a bracket under the rounddown.

The upper fog light appears to have been removed during her 65/66 refit.

 

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“Admiral’s” lights, again.  No idea.

 

Yes, bells and gongs are indeed specified in IRPCS - but they were definitely not permanently rigged in any ship (of sufficient size!) in which I served.  The Buffer (Chief Boatswain’s Mate) rigged them when we anchored - and it most definitely isn’t the RN way to leave anything rigged when not in use... which brings us back to those lights.

 

I too never saw a light cluster like these in my 20 RN years (& I wasn’t only a wobble-head: I did command a ship too, so this isn’t merely some WAFU demonstrating yet again that a little learning is a dangerous thing).  So they clearly haven’t survived into the present day, but there does appear to be ample evidence that late-30s / early-40s RN vessels had them, and that they were called “fog lights”. 

 

Interesting from Victorious (I have that book; I must take another look).  Broadly sounds similar to Ark, which would make sense; in many aspects of the design the early Illustrious class were “improved Ark Royals”.

 

The station-keeping lights is an intriguing idea, but what would “fog” lights offer that normal “stern” and “overtaking” lights did not?  I’m not entirely convinced by the idea of specially bright lights for working in close proximity in a pea-souper, to be honest.  When entering restricted visibility, even the Royal Navy tends to default to the safer option of opening out the stationing distance... not simply turning on brighter lights.

.  

In any case, by the time Ark & Victorious came along only the most die-hard of battleship men would seriously expect them to sail in the line of battle - they wouldn’t be doing much station-keeping; they’d be the main body, with escorts keeping station on them.  And they’d be very disinclined to sail around lit up like a Christmas Tree in U-boat territory...

 

There are numerous aspects of late-30s carrier ops that are more than a little opaque to me; these “aircraft signalling booms” (starboard side of the island and port further for’d).  OK, so in some of the instructional film on YouTube we see them in use (by day) to signal by flag in a pretty normal RN way (albeit horizontally).  But how did the system work?  What did they add that wasn’t provided by the “affirmative shutter” on the rear of the funnel, used by Little F to clear an aircraft to land?  And what on earth were the rows of lights labelled “recognition” used for (you can clearly see them in the view from right aft that I posted yesterday - above the quarterdeck hull openings)?  Surely not the maritime equivalent of the coloured “downward ident lights” in some contemporary aircraft?  Assuming, that is (and it’s not a small assumption) that the “aircraft signalling lights” were the night equivalent of the booms.

 

The short answer is that we (at least I) don’t know.  But it’s fun trying to work it out!

 

Edited by Ex-FAAWAFU
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48 minutes ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

“Admiral’s” lights, again.  No idea.

His cabin was under them, so p'raps he turned them on just before he turned in to warn clumsy aviators not to slam their crates into his deckhead and disturb his beauty sleep? 😉

 

51 minutes ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

I must take another look

Drawing G10

 

1 hour ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

The station-keeping lights is an intriguing idea

With the vertical and fore/aft separation I was thinking along the lines of leading lights, giving the following ship an indication of the leading ship turning. On reflection, on other ships illustrated above the fore/aft separation is the opposite sense to Ark Royal's so would indicate turning in the opposite direction, so maybe not the best idea.

 

55 minutes ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

specially bright lights for working in close proximity in a pea-souper

We're assuming here that they're fog lights like on your car, but could the "fog" refer to how they were viewed ie a dim low intensity light as a normal light would appear in a pea souper?

The light in question has a large diameter (18 inch?) reflector, so with a low wattage lamp fitted could make a light that is easily visible at close range, but not from longer ranges?

 

1 hour ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

When entering restricted visibility, even the Royal Navy tends to default to the safer option of opening out the stationing distance...

Battle of May Island....

 

1 hour ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

But it’s fun trying to work it out!

Yes, I'm intrigued, there must be something out there explaining their use.

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59 minutes ago, Dave Swindell said:

Battle of May Island....

A mere 20 years before Ark was commissioned.  But I’m sure everyone carried on as nothing had happened and no lessons were learned...

 

[Edit: I’m not trying to claim that no-body ever does anything stupid.  But in general people tend not to plan to do something stupid, even to the point of building it into their design...]

Edited by Ex-FAAWAFU
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23 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

The scrap brass is for the support brackets under the section of island that sticks out above the Carley floats.  This bit isn’t parallel with the ship’s side at this point; it tapers outwards gradually, so the supports had to be made slightly longer each time.  Fitted by eye, using some pencil marks (measured) as a guide - pretty happy thus far.

48546577117_696c1e2a36_b.jpg

 

Hi Crisp,

I am probably too late, but can I offer an alternative way of doing these supports if you don't mind using plastic card? Cut some strip which is a bit wider than the depth of the bracket. Then cut into lengths which are, say, 5mm longer than needed. Use this extra length to hold the strip in your tweezers and glue the rectangles into position with liquid cement and leave to set fully.

Then snip away the 5mm excess length and cut the diagonal with your micro chisel or scalpel to the triangular shape.

I hope you don't mind me mentioning this - I can see you are expert at modelling, but you may find this way a lot easier on your eyes. For these kind of details, I do prefer to fit over-sized bits of plasticard that can be easily handled so they can be positioned all-square and then trimming them in place - I get a neat result quicker that way.

Hope this is of some help,

Pat

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On 8/15/2019 at 12:47 PM, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

By the way, does any of you lovely people know if anyone produces after-market 1/350 fairleads etc.?  

I recalled your comment from yesterday, and was looking at some shapeways stuff and found these.

 

https://www.shapeways.com/product/QXH8MV7L8/1-200-royal-navy-ww2-leander-class-fairleads-x14?optionId=70619817&li=marketplace

 

OK, wrong ship and wrong scale, but maybe a larger scale model, of a smaller ship like that one might provide the right size for 1/350? There are probably many more out there, so some sort of search on Shapeways for fairleads and other deck edge stuff might throw something up. 3D quality is getting pretty good these days, although pricey, but you could cast off something like this? Just realised there is a pun there!

 

Just an idea.

 

Terry

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7 hours ago, Terry1954 said:

I recalled your comment from yesterday, and was looking at some shapeways stuff and found these.

Thanks, Terry.  It’s been nagging away in the back of my head, this one - I knew I’d seen some somewhere, but couldn’t place it.  

 

Then I remembered my own Dido build, and adding detail to the fo’c’s’le... including... FAIRLEADS.  A quick re-read of that build later, and €5 is winging its way to L’Arsenal, who produce something that will do the job admirably (with a little adjustment).

 

But thank you anyway

 

 

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On ‎16‎/‎08‎/‎2019 at 07:18, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

I have no idea why you’d put a stern light that high above the waterline; does that count as “as nearly as practicable at the stern”?  I don’t even know whether 1940s navigation lights were the same as 1980s ones.  The ‘International Regulations...’ [“Rule of the Road”] that I once knew by heart date from 1972.  Before that I assume RN ships would have followed the practice of the 1848 Steam Navigation Act.  Was that essentially the same (22.5 degrees abaft the beam, etc etc)?

 

Somewhere, if I can find it, I have my late father's Sea Cadet Handbook from 1935/36, and I know that provides basic detail about the requirement for nav lights in the 1930s.  I'll see if I can find it and see if the rules were significantly different.

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2 hours ago, Modelholic said:

Dido build? My favourite cruisers!

Can you share the link please if possible.

Tom

Sorry, Tom, no can do.  It’s Dido as in Dido the Ikara Leander, my first ship.  I’m not that old!

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5 hours ago, Chewbacca said:

Somewhere, if I can find it, I have my late father's Sea Cadet Handbook from 1935/36, and I know that provides basic detail about the requirement for nav lights in the 1930s.  I'll see if I can find it and see if the rules were significantly different.

Somewhere in my father’s stuff I have an Admiralty Manual of Seamanship - Vol. 1 1937 & Vol. 2 1932.  I bet that will have something, so I need to do some digging!

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On 8/16/2019 at 9:43 PM, patmaquette said:

Hi Crisp,

I am probably too late, but can I offer an alternative way of doing these supports if you don't mind using plastic card?

Thanks, Pat.  No, you’re not too late.  I do often use plastic card for such things.  The reason I haven’t on this occasion is because there are (or will be) other, similar supports / brackets in the same area of the hull which are provided in brass by the Tetra set.  These are not included, for reasons known only to Tetra, and I want them all to look consistent on the finished model. So scratch brass it is, on this occasion.

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Loving this thread Crisp, so much esoteric information for those of us not so nautically endowed.

 

I'm intrigued by the fog light conundrum, so much so that I have just spent my lunch hour (on a slow Sunday shift at work) trawling the IWM photo collection and have come up with a cracking picture, unfortunately I can't access my Flikr account from work to show here but the picture reference is A2704 https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205137061 and shows Winston Churchill on the stern of a destroyer in March 1941, you can zoom right in on the light which seems as though it consists of 8 domestic light bulbs in a star shaped bulb holder without a high quality reflector. How good this light this would be in poor visibility is questionable but maybe the light pattern would be distinctive?

The light is also clearly shown in a 1940 photo of HMS Queen Elizabeth in Rosyth https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205143254 on the stern rail but in 1942 it seems to have disappeared and moved to the rear director tower https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205142008 (see between X turret guns). Amendment: Closer study shows it in this position in 1940 too, maybe the extreme stern light was only rigged when required?

Seems to be a bit of RN equipment that fell into disuse after the war. Hopefully your fathers Admiralty Manual of Seamanship will tell us more.

 

Looking forward to the next instalment of the Ark build.

 

Dave

Edited by Coors54
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More study of the builders’ drawings shows that there were more ladders to/from this Carley float “shelf” than I’d thought, so I did a bit of dry fitting and measuring to get my geometry right:

48578522866_cc6175b1a6_b.jpg

 

You might also just be able to see that there’s another new scuttle peeking out from behind the right hand (for’d) float, right by the ladder.

 

This photo also shows another experiment, and I am pretty pleased with it.  In those pre-NBC days, warships were not the hermetically sealed things that modern ships have become, and the more I gaze at photos of Ark, the more I notice lots and lots of grilles and openings.  Obviously I’m not going to be able to do them all, but some of them are quite large and are worth the effort.  You can see a prominent grille immediately above one of the lower scuttles. It’s slightly countersunk into the surface, which once painted ought to make it look a bit less like a piece of mesh stuck on top, and more like part of the hull... I hope!

 

The “grating” is this stuff, which I acquired aeons ago at a show:

48579019781_a80dbba8a9_b.jpg

 

After doing my measurements, I added three more ladders (one to each Carley float), plus some 0.3 nickel rod rungs for a different style of ladder on the left - the Tetra set has some really neat templates for drilling even / symmetrical holes for these.

48579165027_3e893afbd2_b.jpg

 

More soon

 

Crisp

 

P.S. A swift re-post of this view, already seen more than once in this build, shows the grille I’m talking about:

 

Ark Royal starboard side close-up, 1940

 

P.P.S. Note to self after seeing these close-ups: clean up this area!

Edited by Ex-FAAWAFU
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On 8/15/2019 at 12:47 PM, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

 

By the way, does any of you lovely people know if anyone produces after-market 1/350 fairleads etc.?  There are PE outlines in the set, but this is one area where a thin brass sheet significantly understates the sheer heft of a carrier fairlead!  If not, I’ll fettle one and cast some clones, but if someone else has done the work...  [the North Star resin anchors are fabulous].

 

Hi Crisp, this WIP's great, so much information and the history behind. I hope you don;t mind but I plan to use it as reference when I build my Ark.

Re the fairlead - I've got a spare 1/350 battle-cruiser one from Hood - send me a PM if you want me to post it to you for casting.

 

Cheers

 

Nick 

 

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14 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

[...] I added [...] plus some 0.3 nickel rod rungs for a different style of ladder on the left - the Tetra set has some really neat templates for drilling even / symmetrical holes for these.
 

What I like to do for such rungs is bending them around some plasticard or whatever else with the right thickness; while keeping the plasticard pushed to the workbench I (gently) squeeze them a bit with tweezers or pliers for a sharper bend. For placement I use some Evergreen strip as a spacer; then it's quite easy to glue all the rungs very consistently even when they are so very tiny (glue from the other side of the hull when you can). Here you can't remove the strip with the "Carley support strip" in place already so some planning is always in order! 🤔

Edited by foeth
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