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Colours of the Martlet?


ClaudioN

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Hi all,

 

I thought I'd better move these two quotations from "Tropical Sea Scheme on the 'Beest" into a new thread, as they are only indirectly related to the Vildebeest.

On 6/22/2019 at 2:28 PM, Dana Bell said:

The original is a 4x5 Kodachrome transparency at the Smithsonian's National Air and Space Museum; it clearly shows the the green.  The colors turn up in a Grumman schematic as Extra Dark Sea Gray, Light Sea Green, and Duck Egg Blue.  (While we understand that Duck Egg Blue meant "Sky," Grumman apparently didn't know this in 1940.  The photos clearly show the belly in a pale blue that might have been Sky Blue.)

All three colors seem to be confirmed by the Martlet I restoration at the FAA Museum.

8 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

I can only add that when I peered very closely at the restored Martlet, the "EDSG " looked distinctly greenish to me.  Unlike all the other examples around.

 

The G-36A Martlet Mk.I colour scheme seems to be rather well documented, since we have:

  • an existing restored airframe, with original colours on it;
  • an original colour transparency
  • an original Grumman document

Still, something does not match:

  • Extra Dark Sea Gray, Light Sea Green, and Duck Egg Blue (the colours in the Grumman document) do not correspond to any established FAA camouflage scheme
  • on the FAAM aircraft the darker upper camouflage colour looks green, more than grey: perhaps (Extra) Dark Sea Green? Anyway, no FAA camouflage scheme ever specified two tones of green
  • a letter dated April 1940 (Ian Huntley article in Model Aircraft Montly, December 2003) about G-36As clearly refers to then-current S.1.E camouflage of Extra Dark Sea Grey, Dark Slate Grey and Sky Grey. "Nearest equivalent" colours were, respectively: Blue Gray, No. 32; Dark Olive Drab, No. 31 and Light Gray, M-495.

A note in the April 1940 letter informs that colours could be "subject to change at short notice as prescribed by the Directorate of Operational Requirements, Air Ministry". On the other hand, it is also stated in the same letter that when an immediate match did not exist, the colour would be manufactured in the U.S..

 

Grummans were reportedly accurate in their application of specified colours and their G-36A's were built and delivered in peacetime USA, rather than under the pressures of wartime production. I'd be inclined to believe that, for some (unknown ?) reason, the odd colour scheme of the Martlet Mk. I was actually agreed upon with some British representative. I'd like to know more.

 

Opinions, anybody?

 

Regards

 

Claudio

 

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IIRC, and I am damned if I remember exactly where I read it, the first Martlets to be delivered to the UK were said to be camouflaged in "lurid colours" and quite a few eyebrows were raised.

 

The aircraft were subsequently repainted in TSS. at some stage.

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In addition there is a cypher message X156  describing the colours of early Martlets, between UK Commands (a long list), Admiralty, and the War Office from the Air Ministry on 29th May 1940, which I discuss in FAA Camouflage and Markings 1937-41. It reads:

 

"A squadron of Grumman Martlets camouflaged American colour scheme. Upper surfaces - two shades dark green similar pattern to TSS. Lower surfaces - pale sky blue. Undertaking camouflage trials area Donibristle. Aircraft bear national markings without HQ. FC. cosmetic markings."

 

IG

Edited by iang
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Thanks Ian.  I believe that Paul Lucas has done an article but I'm away from my references.

 

I would describe the restored aircraft as having a sky blue underside, with two shades of dark green on the upper surfaces.  The lighter of the two colours appears to be close if not identical to MAP Dark Sea Green, which is indeed as it appears in the original colour photo(s).   The darker of the two colours was much less easy to identify in the photos but on close inspection of the restored aircraft is a colour I would have little problem as calling Extra Dark Sea Green, had such an official colour existed.  Hopefully the restoration will be followed with a book as for the earlier Corsair restoration.

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Hi All,

Paul Lucas wrote an article 15+ years ago in SAM about the early Martlets.  His opinion, confirmed by those photos posted here a few years ago, was flag blue, willow green, and a light blue which may have been mixed at the factory, if memory serves.  All the comments over the years that Grumman used this or that group of colors is clearly equivocal.  They, like all the other US mfg's, were permitted to use whatever paint they had so as to not delay production for their prime customer, the US gov't; even for those planes built under BPC contract before Lend Lease.  After that?  Well again, the British even accepted planes painted overall blue when they wanted sea grey and olive drab, no?

 

Ciao!

 

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21 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

The darker of the two colours was much less easy to identify in the photos but on close inspection of the restored aircraft is a colour I would have little problem as calling Extra Dark Sea Green, had such an official colour existed. 

 

it does, though there is no Dark Sea Green

bstablegb_1.JPG

10 minutes ago, expositor said:

Well again, the British even accepted planes painted overall blue when they wanted sea grey and olive drab, no?

Grumman not much  later than the first Martlet batches used US made colours to MAP (Ministry of Aircraft Production) standards,  so Martlets/Hellcats and Avenger I's (TBF) are very close matches to MAP colours.

Equivalent colours are those used by Eastern on the Avenger II (TBM) which were ANA colors, Olive Drab and Sea Gray over Sky, which acceptable to the British.

 

Overall Gloss Sea Blue only seem to come online in 1945,    I presume the British found it acceptable, and would have greatly eased production as everything could be the same color?

 

@iang  may know more on this,  though I can only recall seeing operational use of overall GSB in the Far East,  Corsair  KD431 was used for training IIRC

 

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I forgot to mention the 3/4 blue(s) and white Corsairs, and a few Dauntlesses from late '43...?  And, it's possible that dark gull grey was used at times instead of sea grey by Grumman, but we all know about color photo interpretation....Not to mention the disagreements by some experts here about Grumman (and Vought) aircraft undersurface colors....

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1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

Thanks Ian.  I believe that Paul Lucas has done an article but I'm away from my references.

 

I would describe the restored aircraft as having a sky blue underside, with two shades of dark green on the upper surfaces.  The lighter of the two colours appears to be close if not identical to MAP Dark Sea Green, which is indeed as it appears in the original colour photo(s).   The darker of the two colours was much less easy to identify in the photos but on close inspection of the restored aircraft is a colour I would have little problem as calling Extra Dark Sea Green, had such an official colour existed.  Hopefully the restoration will be followed with a book as for the earlier Corsair restoration.

 

I agree with your suggestion of Dark and Extra Dark Sea Green. I took a number of photos of the exposed parts before the restoration (this must have been before 2005 when I bought a digital SLR) and, on the prints, the colours seemed a reasonable match, but i was making that judgement on the basis of commercially produced prints from film exposed in pretty poor light. There are, however, 1938 Air Diagrams that use Dark and Extra Dark Sea Green (in combination with Dark and Extra Dark Sea Grey or Light and Dark Mediterranean Blue) as camouflage colours for FAA aircraft, and the later was applied experimentally to Swordfish on Glorious. These were schemes S.1.C and S.2.T respectively (rather than S.1.E that was officially adopted). The fact that the cypher message I refer to makes mention of camouflage trials I think is significant and, in my opinion, it may well restrict the list of possible colours to those that RAE had been considering as camouflage colours for FAA aircraft 1936-38.

Edited by iang
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10 hours ago, iang said:

In addition there is a cypher message X156  describing the colours of early Martlets, between UK Commands (a long list), Admiralty, and the War Office from the Air Ministry on 29th May 1940, which I discuss in FAA Camouflage and Markings 1937-41. It reads:

 

"A squadron of Grumman Martlets camouflaged American colour scheme. Upper surfaces - two shades dark green similar pattern to TSS. Lower surfaces - pale sky blue. Undertaking camouflage trials area Donibristle. Aircraft bear national markings without HQ. FC. cosmetic markings."

 

IG

Thank you Ian.

Message X156 mentions "camouflage trials", that is interesting. The date in your book is 29th May 1941, not 1940, which makes more sense and, as you noted, at that time the Martlets were serving with No. 802 Squadron. Martlet Mk.I deliveries had been completed about six months before. Perhaps, trials helped decide whether the odd camouflage could be retained, whereas at first several machines had been repainted.

10 hours ago, Grey Beema said:

I assume you have seen this, doesn't go into colours too much but a starter for 10 for Martlets..

 

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/wildcatfaaba_1.htm

Thank you Grey,

I've seen the document. I had actually discussed some issues with Bruce Archer back then (see reference 11). Perhaps a few details about early Martlets are now clearer to me. If you are interested...

9 hours ago, expositor said:

Hi All,

Paul Lucas wrote an article 15+ years ago in SAM about the early Martlets.  His opinion, confirmed by those photos posted here a few years ago, was flag blue, willow green, and a light blue which may have been mixed at the factory, if memory serves.  All the comments over the years that Grumman used this or that group of colors is clearly equivocal.  They, like all the other US mfg's, were permitted to use whatever paint they had so as to not delay production for their prime customer, the US gov't; even for those planes built under BPC contract before Lend Lease.  After that?  Well again, the British even accepted planes painted overall blue when they wanted sea grey and olive drab, no?

 

Ciao!

Ciao, and thank you for your comments.

Perhaps Tony O'Toole provided a more up-to-date view in his article on Model Aircarft Monthly (vol. 6, Iss. 12) in December 2007. Er... that's 12 years, nevertheless. Doesn't time fly, eh?

 

My point is that G-36A Martlet Mk. Is were manufactured between May and October 1940, well in advance of the US Navy that was still struggling with a couple of pre-production F4F-3s (painted aluminium and yellow) and none were in USN squadron service until December 1940.

One thing I noticed is that Grumman drawing no. 23350-3, giving camouflage as Extra Dark Sea Gray, Light Sea Green and Duck Egg Blue refers to: "G36A All on Contract F-292", where F-292 was the original French contract. So, one question might be: perhaps upper surface colours had a French origin? Sounds unlikely.

In the old IPMS USA FAASIG web site, Paul Fontenoy suggested that Grumman received colour instructions from the RN representative, adding: I believe he was Lt. J. H. Millar. I have been unable to track down that name on the web, but the idea that some British representative was involved sounds reasonable.

 

Claudio

Edited by ClaudioN
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11 minutes ago, ClaudioN said:

The date in your book is 29th May 1941, not 1940, which makes more sense and, as you noted, at that time the Martlets were serving with No. 802 Squadron.

Oops. Mea culpa. That's what happens posting while trying to do other things.

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Mmmmm... It would be too much of a coincidence that the colour names were given as Extra Dark Sea Gray, Light Sea Green and Duck Egg Blue, if that was a French specification: let's not forget that France fell in June 1940. I'd suggest the colour names might point to a British request when taking over the French order...

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Was there Extra Dark Sea Green on the unrestored aircraft, though? I mean, was the Museum staff 100% sure that the darker colour under the later blue coat was a green rather than a grey?

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Can I suggest that you obtain a copy of the book covering the earlier restoration of the Corsair, to gain some measure of the techniques used and painstaking care taken by the Museum staff.

 

Yes, we can be confident that the colour seen on the aircraft now accurately reflects the original.  We would of course welcome a similar book to that of the earlier restoration as an insight into exactly what was found.  However, casting doubt without the slightest foundation isn't productive.

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1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

Can I suggest that you obtain a copy of the book covering the earlier restoration of the Corsair, to gain some measure of the techniques used and painstaking care taken by the Museum staff.

 

Yes, we can be confident that the colour seen on the aircraft now accurately reflects the original.  We would of course welcome a similar book to that of the earlier restoration as an insight into exactly what was found.  However, casting doubt without the slightest foundation isn't productive.

I read the Corsair book and agree with you entirely.

I was anticipating a Martlet book hot on the heels of the restoration of AL246, alas it hasn't yet appeared. Do we stand any chance?

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Do we have an idea of what Light Sea Green was supposed to look like? I can't recall ever having seen an example and there's no chip in the RAFM booklet. 

John 

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17 hours ago, ClaudioN said:

I was anticipating a Martlet book hot on the heels of the restoration of AL246, alas it hasn't yet appeared. Do we stand any chance?

Back in August 2010 I was granted fleeting hands-on access to the Martlet I while it was under restoration in order to take a few measurements in support of a debate we were having on here at the time.   I was  asked not to take any photographs.  I assumed that this was so I would not steal the thunder of a forthcoming book on the restoration.  Nine years later we're still waiting.  I suspect it's nothing more than Dave Morris not having enough time to write it: too tied up with that Barracuda rebuild, I expect.

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22 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Can I suggest that you obtain a copy of the book covering the earlier restoration of the Corsair, to gain some measure of the techniques used and painstaking care taken by the Museum staff.

 

Yes, we can be confident that the colour seen on the aircraft now accurately reflects the original.  We would of course welcome a similar book to that of the earlier restoration as an insight into exactly what was found.  However, casting doubt without the slightest foundation isn't productive.

I was not casting doubt, I was just asking a question: the last time I heard anything about AL246 , it was still being worked on. As much as I try to keep abreast with things, I can't follow everything...

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5 hours ago, Seahawk said:

Back in August 2010 I was granted fleeting hands-on access to the Martlet I while it was under restoration in order to take a few measurements in support of a debate we were having on here at the time.   I was  asked not to take any photographs.  I assumed that this was so I would not steal the thunder of a forthcoming book on the restoration.  Nine years later we're still waiting.  I suspect it's nothing more than Dave Morris not having enough time to write it: too tied up with that Barracuda rebuild, I expect.

Book or Barra, that man ought to be helped...

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