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Hurricane Mk IIA wings


mongo

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I am contemplating a project involving a Hurricane Mk IIA.  My reading to this point suggests that the production block of MK IIAs that my subject comes from had the 12-gun wing but only 8 guns installed.  I would assume that the wing interior was structurally beefed-up to accommodate the weight and recoil of the additional guns and altered to accommodate fitting the additional two guns outboard in the wing.  My uncertainty lies in the external appearance:  were the access panels for the guns bays and ammunition bins and ejection ports present on wings that were fitted from the factory with only eight guns?

 

Thanks for any thoughts.

 

Jeff Cramer

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6 minutes ago, mongo said:

My reading to this point suggests that the production block of MK IIAs that my subject comes from had the 12-gun wing but only 8 guns installed. 

hmm,  what reading is my question.  and what subject do you have in mind?

 

I ask as there is a surprising amount of vagueness and misinformation about Hurricanes, and the same gets repeated without scrutiny (eg in the IIA case, the IIa series 1 was the same length as a Mk.I,  which it can't be) 

 

Basically, as far as i know, a 12 gun wing,  outer guns fitted or not is a B wing.   

 

yes, the wing is modified,  and the guns had to be wiggled in backward from the leading edge.    They made the plane a sluggish and affected roll, so were not always fitted. 

 

mk2b-wing.jpg

OK, this has a photo showing the gun bays open, the outer bay is in the roundel

110843936.jpeg


Hurribomber-Manston-1941.jpg

this image shows that the outer muzzles protruded,  and is a way of showing if the outer guns were fitted, there are pics of the with patches over them, and they stick out.

Also, when bomb rack were fitted, an inner gun was removed, as seen here.  the bit sticking out the wing inboard of the guns is a gun camera.

 

One other area of confusion, some Canadian built aircraft were built as Mk.I's (Merlin III engine,  8 gun wing) but were later re-engined with a Merlin XX or the Packard  Merlin equivalent, becoming Mk.XII's, but retaining their 8 gun wings.....

 

Anyway. HTH,  a more specific question, eg I want info on Hurricane XX of XX sq,  in 194X may get you a better answer.

 

cheers

T

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Well, I went back to review the information that led me to my question and apparently I misunderstood what I read.  It seems (according to the article) that the Series I was planned to have the twelve-gun wing, but owing to a shortage of guns, were built with 8-gun wings.  Dopey me... 🙄

 

The aircraft I'm interested in are those that flew with 302 Squadron (Polish).  See my other recent post on that subject.  Apparently, information that might identify the specific aircraft I'm interested in from a flight on 21 May 41 by P/O Gnys is lost.  I'm considering making two other aircraft:  either Hurricane Mk IIA Z2845 WX-U or Z2350 WX-W.   I speculate (since I have no information what serials were Series I aircraft) that these were Series II aircraft since they were somewhat later in the production block so the wing issue is moot.   I am going to go back to the British archives and research Mk Is that Gnys may have flown when 302 Sq was so equipped.  My objective is to make a series of aircraft flown by or associated with P/O Wladeslaw Gnys to include a Hurricane while he was with 302 Squadron.

 

While not really germane to this forum, I'm also trying to identify an MS 406 that he might have flown while with GCIII/1 during the Battle of France.

 

I do have another Hurricane question though...  In my references there are notations showing Hurricane Mk IIA and Mk IIB and then others that use Mk IIa and Mk IIb, etc.  Is there a difference between aircraft sub-types designated by upper-case and lower-case subscript?  Or is that merely an inconsistency in nomenclature?

 

Tony, thanks for all the useful and enlightening info you included!

 

Jeff

 

 

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2 hours ago, mongo said:

Well, I went back to review the information that led me to my question and apparently I misunderstood what I read.  It seems (according to the article) that the Series I was planned to have the twelve-gun wing, but owing to a shortage of guns, were built with 8-gun wings

IIa = 8 gun wing

IIb = 12 gun wing.

 

there was discussion as to what exactly a IIa series 1 was, @Graham Boak may know.   I need to sleep now,  so can't go hunting.

 

more later

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A few thoughts:

1. Just in case it needs saying, pay no heed to the current iteration of the Wikipedia article. Any source that tells you the Sea Hurricane Ic served at sea is unreliable. 

2. Strenuously resist any temptation to impute meaning to suffix variations A (a), B (b), C(c) and so on. There is no meaning to be found there.

3.  I am reasonably confident that there was no Hurricane Z2845, or indeed any other RAF aircraft allocated that serial. Is that a typo on your part?

4. Z2350 did exist and was an eight-gun Hurricane IIa with a wing which, for modelling purposes, was identical to that of a late Hurricane I. 

5. I don't understand what you mean by "they were somewhat later in the production block so the wing issue is moot", which might mean I have missed your point somewhere. Z2350 was a pretty early Hurricane II.

3 hours ago, mongo said:

either Hurricane Mk IIA Z2845 WX-U or Z2350 WX-W.  

 

I do have another Hurricane question though...  In my references there are notations showing Hurricane Mk IIA and Mk IIB and then others that use Mk IIa and Mk IIb, etc.  Is there a difference between aircraft sub-types designated by upper-case and lower-case subscript?  Or is that merely an inconsistency in nomenclature?

 

 

Edited by Work In Progress
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2. Strenuously resist any temptation to impute meaning to suffix variations A (a), B (b), C(c) and so on. There is no meaning to be found there.

 

Is there a preferred convention of upper-case or lower-case suffix?

 

3.  I am reasonably confident that there was no Hurricane Z2845, or indeed any other RAF aircraft allocated that serial. Is that a typo on your part?

 

You are correct it was a typo...,  I *should* have noted it as Z2485.

 

5. I don't understand what you mean by "they were somewhat later in the production block so the wing issue is moot", which might mean I have missed your point somewhere. Z2350 was a pretty early Hurricane II

 

Perhaps I'm making erroneous assumptions here.  The production block I refer to was a series of 1000 Hawker-built Mk IIs; a mixed bag of IIAs and IIBs including Series I aircraft.  I assume that the serials were assigned sequentially during production; first off the line would have the "lower" serial numbers and later aircraft would have the higher numbers.  My references indicate there were only about 100 Series I aircraft and I assume those would be the lowest serials; please correct me if I'm in error.  Z2485 was beyond the first 100 or so and, I assume, outside the questionable wing issue.  Other correspondent's information suggest that the next aircraft were IIAs.  Most of the serials I'm looking at are up to Z30XX serials when IIBs start to appear; I have no idea where the IIA/IIB cutoff was or, were they produced concurrently?   My references do not include specific Series, Marks or production dates associated with serial numbers.  As I said, I'm speculating based on logical progression.  Can you direct me to a document that will give me unequivocal information to resolve that question?

 

Thanks.

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Sorry in advance for the thread hi-jack but...

 

Can I ask what kit you are using?  

 

I want to build Hawker Sea Hurricane IIb (?) JS355 sometime in the future in 1/48 and was wondering what the best kit to use as a starting point is?  Again I'd this an 8 or 12 gun wing?

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1 hour ago, Grey Beema said:

I want to build Hawker Sea Hurricane IIb (?) JS355 sometime in the future in 1/48 and was wondering what the best kit to use as a starting point is?  Again I'd this an 8 or 12 gun wing?

Canadian-built airframe, 12-gun wing. 

The easiest place to start is probably here - you will need to scrape around a bit, second-hand dealers, auction sites, model shows etc.

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/hasegawa-09066-hawker-hurricane-mk-iib--931543

Edited by Work In Progress
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6 hours ago, mongo said:

The production block I refer to was a series of 1000 Hawker-built Mk IIs; a mixed bag of IIAs and IIBs including Series I aircraft. 

I have a suspicion I might know where confusion may have arisen, but to help home in, please can you give the start and end serials that you have been given for this block? And it would also be helpful to know which reference work you got it from.

 

Also, and this is not a trick question even though I know it reads like one

what do you believe the be the alphanumerically earliest serial of an aircraft built from scratch as a Hurricane II? (Excluding the subsequent Hurricane I factory rebuilds into Hurricane II spec)

 

If I sound cagey here it's because there is a VAST amount of incorrect Hurricane information out there, and has been for decades - the fictional deployment of non-existent Sea Hurricane Ic; the incorrect notion that the early Hurricane II had a shorter nose (disregarding spinners) than later ones - and the whole subject is a minefield.

 

Any preference of upper-case or lower-case suffix: house style for the relevant Air Ministry publications, the maintenance documentation and pilots' notes, was upper case, so you can always quote that if someone else criticises you for it.

 

" I assume, outside the questionable wing issue" - I don't believe there is a questionable wing issue, at least in terms of visual distinctions for modelling purposes. Every Hurricane IIa wing looks like every metal-covered Hurricane I wing (leaving out oddities like non-production cannon prototypes).

 

Edited by Work In Progress
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The problem is that sources vary on early Mk.IIs.  As I understand it they came in three flavours.  8 gun wing which equals the Mk.IIA; 12 gun wing which equals the Mk.IIB; strengthened wing which carries a jettisonable store carrier and hence is a 10 gun wing, also known as a Mk.IIB but also seen as a Mk.IIE.  The Mk.IIE was later used for a universal wing idea which was simplified to the Mk.IV.

 

I have seen references to Mk.IIA series i, I don't know why but it may be linked to the apparently fictitious long nose Mk.II with a new tropical oil cooler behind the engine - bloody silly place to put it.  It would seem to make sense to call the early Mk.IIBs with the unstrengthened wing as Mk.II series I but I have not seen this used as such.

Edited by Graham Boak
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The RAF Manual series Volume 2, the Hurricane II Manual describes as follows; 2. Hurricane Mk. IIA, Mk. IIB and Mk. IIC differ mainly in the armament carried, as follows: -

  Mk. IIA    8 Browing guns (.303 in.)

  Mk. IIB   12 Browing guns (.303 in.)

  Mk. IIC    4 Hispano guns (20 mm)

The Mk. IIA has the the Hurricane I 8-gun stressed-skin main plane, and there are two versions: the Series I can only be fitted with the 8-gun main plane, but the Series II has a fuselage incorporating strengthened longerons which enable conversion to a later Mk. to be made, by substitution of the appropriate main plane. (Note. - In this publication the Mk. IIA is only described where it is important to do so, as for example, in the loading and C.G. data given in Sect. 4, Chap. 1 The 8-gun main plane is practically identical with the 12-gun main plane if the outboard guns are disregarded; consequently, description of the IIB gun installation covers the IIA installation). In the case of the Mk. IIA Series 2, Mk. IIB and Mk. IIC, two bombs may be carried, one under each outer plane.

 

Jun in Tokyo

https://www.flickr.com/photos/horaburo/albums

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The manual can be misleading, for all you get is the latest set of amendments, and as you point out there's no unneccesary repetition.  A Mk.IIB wing is covered whether or not can carry bombs/fuel tanks, and I don't believe it mentions the ten gun case.  Possibly because it would be extremely obvious whenever anyone tried to fit the carrier - assuming that it would ever be taken out.

 

There's room for speculation regarding the removal of the outer guns in the case of fighter-bombers, leaving them with only six, especially in Burma.  After all these units would normally have been very unlikely to meet enemy fighters, but might very well be called on to do strafing.

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Initial equipment (19/9/40) Hurricane Mk I

WX- A P3085, Nov V7045, Jan 41 V7047.

WX-B R2684, 15/9 V6860.

WX-C P3942, V6744.

WX-D P3935, Nov V7046.

WX-E P3927, 17/8 P2954, Sept P3205, Jan 41 P3204.

WX-F P3867, 14/2/41 V6742.

WX-G R2685, Oct V6694.

WX-H P3939, 6/9 P2717.

WX-J P3538.

WX-K V6569, Sept V6734.

WX-L P3812, 15/1/40 V6865.

WX-M R4095, 15/9/40 V6735.

WX-Q V6570, V6571.

WX-R P2752, 15/10/40 P3872, 18/10/40 P3785.

WX-S V6942.

WX-T P3934, 24/8/40 V7417, 17/10/40 P3877.

WX-U P3923, 18/11/40 N2352, Feb 41 N2423, Mar 41 Z2485.

WX-V P3931, 18/10/40 V7593, 25/10/40 V7593, Jan 41 V7047.

WX-W P3120, 25/10/40 V6941.

WX-X P3930, 18/10/40 R2687.

WX-Y P3924, 30/09/40 P2918.

WX-Z P3086, 18/09/40 V6753.

 

In the first days of March 1941 302 Squadron began replacing its Hurricane Mk Is with Mk IIs. At this time Z2342 (F), Z2350 (W), Z2357 (X), Z2386 (C), Z2423 (V), Z2485 (U), Z2497 (S), Z2523 (G), Z2629 (R), Z2668 (H), Z2673 (Y), Z2667 (E), Z2681 (Z), Z2773 (T), Z2775 (D), Z2814 (K), Z2861, Z3091(M), Z3095 (N), Z3098 (A), Z3099 (B).

 

Additionally in May the following are recorded with the squadron: Z2489, Z2499, Z2815, Z3023, Z3067, Z3080, Z3093, Z3181, Z3221, Z3228, Z3314, Z3323, Z3327,Z3332, Z3501.

 

On 28th May the squadron moved to Jurby, leaving their Mk IIs at Kenley, where they adopted the Hurricane MK Is previously owned by 312 Squadron.

 

N2471 (H), N2771, P2932 (Q), P3039 (A) P3209 ex DU-S, P3759, P3888 (K) ex DU-O, P3983 ex DU-Q, V6678 (Y) ex DU-L, V6848 ex DU-N, V6935, V6938 (C), V6943 (D) ex DU-J, V7028 (U) ex DU-V, V7042, V7597, V7858 (G), W9137 (B) ex DU-B.

 

On 27-28 July 1941, two batches of nine Hurricane II aircraft arrived, as a new equipment for the squadron.

 

Z2913 (D), Z3165 (K), Z3402 (Z), Z3425 (A), Z3668 (W), Z3672 (G), Z3673 (C), Z3674 (Y), Z3675 (B), Z3676 (H), Z3751(J), Z3752 (L), Z3980 (V), Z3982 (S), Z3983 (Q), Z5000 (X), Z5004 (T), Z5006 (P).

 

Additionally, Z2913 (D) 24/08, Z3332 (R) 20/08, Z2897 or Z3897 (U), Z5040 (U) 22/08.

 

At the same time, the  squadron handed over his well-worn Hurricane Is.

 

P3039 (A), R9137 (B), P3938 (C), V6930 (E), V7630 (G), P3307 (J), P3888 (K), V7486 (L), P3983 (Q), V7028 (U), V6678 (Y), P2992, P2993, P3934, P3209, V6848, V6935, V7042, V7997.

 

After October 11, 1941, there were new equipment for the unit - eighteen Spitfire VB and two Mk IIA. All serviceable Hurricanes were sent to 2 Delivery Flight in Colerne, and from there to 245 Squadron. The remaining Hurricane IIBs were sent back successively as they were restored to flight condition.

 

ORB records Gnyś flying the following Hurricanes:

 

25/10/40 WX-R P3872

26/10/40 WX-R P3872

28/10/40 WX-X R2687

10/11/40 WX-R P3785

15/11/40 WX-R P3785

23/11/40 WX-R P3785

15/02/41 WX-T P3877

23/02/41 WX-T P3877

09/03/41 WX-U Z2485

09/03/41 WX-W Z2350 *

09/03/41 WX-R Z2629 *

15/03/41 WX-W Z2350

08/04/41 WX-U Z2485

02/07/41 V?

12/08/41 WX-U ?7897 ** 14/08/41 WX-Y Z3674

28/08/41 WX-T Z5004

29/08/41 WX-T Z5004

 

* Apparently at the same time.

** Might be Z2897 or Z3897.

 

MS406

 

Gynś was assigned Section 4 Bursztyn of GC III/I. Of the 3 aircraft assigned to the section Bursztyn flew c/n 1031, L-621 and Chciuk c/n 948. They received code numbers in the form of large Roman numerals, c/n 1031 - ‘I’ and c/n 948 ‘III’. The aircraft assigned Gnyś has not been identified but it is likely it carried ‘II’ on the rear fuselage

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My principal references for the serial number info are the listings in the MDF 22 (Franks, SAM Publications) and Famous Aircraft of the World (Caruana, Periscopio).

 

Caruana's listing says 1000 aircraft, Hawker built, contract 62305/39, serial begin with Z2308 and go all the way to Z4018 with gaps.  Franks listing includes identical information as well as a few additional details about specific aircraft used for testing and development, delivery dates from Jan-Jul '41

 

302 Squadron operation records show numerous serials in that time period, about 28 (the copy of the on-line document is muddy and the clerk made several typos/overstrikes that make it difficult at times to determine the actual serial).  I'm looking at the period of Mar-Apr '41; they converted from Mk Is to Mk IIs o/a 9 Mar '41.  Mk II delivery started 6 weeks prior and they received early production aircraft; earliest is Z2342 and highest Z3098, most being Z24XX - Z28XX.

 

1.  Is there a direct correlation between serial sequence and production sequence?  In other words were the first aircraft off the line Mk IIA Series 1, the next Mk IIA Series 2, the next being Mk IIB?

 

2.  Is there a listing of Series 1 serials and how many aircraft were included?  Franks alternatively states "the first 120 aircraft" or "approximately 100" aircraft.  If "the first 120 aircraft", then Series 1 encompassed Z2308 - Z2483.

 

3.  Did Mk IIA Series 2 production cease entirely on the production line and then all subsequent aircraft turned out as Mk IIBs?

 

4.  How many Mk IIA Series 2 were produced and at what point was production converted to Mk IIB, or were they mixed on the production line throughout the production block?

 

Now, to throw another grenade into the room: spinners...  Franks indicates that the subject production block were fitted with both Rotol and deHavilland props.  His diagrams depict both the short "pointed" and short "blunt" spinners corresponding respectively to Series 1 and Series 2/ IIBs.  Further, his diagrams mention only Rotol props while his production block notes indicate both type props.  Were specific spinner shapes associated with a specific prop (Rotol or dH)?  I've seen images described as Mk IIs with the long spinner; when/with what Mark or type prop were those introduced?  It seems pretty random.  Were the various spinners interchangeable with all types of props fitted to the Mk IIs?  Was the long spinner merely an aerodynamic improvement unassociated with dimensional requirements of the actual prop mechanism?

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2 hours ago, mongo said:

My principal references for the serial number info are the listings in the MDF 22 (Franks, SAM Publications) and Famous Aircraft of the World (Caruana, Periscopio).

I'd be wary of both.  As @Work In Progress says, there's lots of wrong information about,  as it keeps being repeated without checking.

2 hours ago, mongo said:

Now, to throw another grenade into the room: spinners...  Franks indicates that the subject production block were fitted with both Rotol and deHavilland props.  His diagrams depict both the short "pointed" and short "blunt" spinners corresponding respectively to Series 1 and Series 2/ IIBs.  Further, his diagrams mention only Rotol props while his production block notes indicate both type props.  Were specific spinner shapes associated with a specific prop (Rotol or dH)?  I've seen images described as Mk IIs with the long spinner; when/with what Mark or type prop were those introduced?  It seems pretty random.  Were the various spinners interchangeable with all types of props fitted to the Mk IIs?  Was the long spinner merely an aerodynamic improvement unassociated with dimensional requirements of the actual prop mechanism?

 

Hurricane props cause a lot of confusion.

 

Compare the Datafile book section on props with this thread

 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234980181-hawker-hurricane-propellers-and-spinners-a-modellers-guide/

 

I don't know of a better guide on the subject.  In short, if you read a thread on here from. The last few years on Hurricane's that contradicts "the books" what is here is correct, and will have documented evidence.

 

On a little tablet so will add more later. 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Work In Progress said:

Canadian-built airframe, 12-gun wing.

JS-serialled Hurricanes arrived from Canada with the 12-gun wings, but I suspect the conversion to Sea Hurricane included the intention to refit them with four-cannon wings in the UK, before delivery to the FAA.

Lack of time before the Torch landings seemingly resulted in a mixed complement, at least in 800 Sqn. on HMS Biter. Crosley ("They gave me a Seafire") mentions 20 mm cannon during squadron work-up, but then notes that on 8 November his own Mk. II still had the 12 Brownings.

JS355 was flown by Cdr. Bruen, possibly the CO aircraft already had the cannon wing?

 

Claudio

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2 minutes ago, ClaudioN said:

JS-serialled Hurricanes arrived from Canada with the 12-gun wings, but I suspect the conversion to Sea Hurricane included the intention to refit them with four-cannon wings in the UK, before delivery to the FAA.

Lack of time before the Torch landings seemingly resulted in a mixed complement, at least in 800 Sqn. on HMS Biter. Crosley ("They gave me a Seafire") mentions 20 mm cannon during squadron work-up, but then notes that on 8 November his own Mk. II still had the 12 Brownings.

JS355 was flown by Cdr. Bruen, possibly the CO aircraft already had the cannon wing?

 

Claudio

AG334 flown by Crosley was converted to a IIB and later to a IIC according to a note I scribbled down some time ago (I didn't write the scource).   I will have to venture to the Cave but I think there is a picture of Bruens aircraft resplendent in its US stars but Being from the rear quarter I don't remember seeing cannon.  I don't think they were in the artwork either.  

 

It is indeed Bruens aircraft I wish to do as I have his Pedestal aircraft in my collection already.  As for Crosley, I have a Seafire III on its way for the D-Day GB...

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52 minutes ago, ClaudioN said:

JS355 was flown by Cdr. Bruen, possibly the CO aircraft already had the cannon wing?

 

43 minutes ago, Grey Beema said:

I think there is a picture of Bruens aircraft resplendent in its US stars but Being from the rear quarter I don't remember seeing cannon.  I don't think they were in the artwork either.

this one?

Sea-Hurricane-XII-Operation-Torch-JS355-

 

it's listed as JS355.    I can't see any cannon feed bulges on the wing.  

 

for completeness, the other Operation Torch Hurricane shot, JS327, which is definitely 12 gun B wing

Sea_Hurricane_Mk.XII_JS327.jpg&key=dcfd3

 

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The spinner shapes were entirely tied to the manufacturer of the propeller.  The long bullet shape was the intended Rotol design for the Hurricane, and was Introduced late in Mk.I production. 

 

I don't know whether the DH or Spitfire Rotol spinners/props were ever fitted to a Mk.II, it seems plausible but I think a misidentification likelier.  They will have been designed for a slightly different power range.

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2 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

this one?

Sea-Hurricane-XII-Operation-Torch-JS355-

 

it's listed as JS355.    I can't see any cannon feed bulges on the wing. 

Thank you Troy.

It's hard to find out, but here are four extracts from Crosley:

1) "Our new Hurricanes were armed with 12 x .303 Brownings or four 20 mm Hispano cannon." (p. 80)

2) "We sailed from the Clyde for Operation Torch ... on 25th October. ... It was fun firing our four cannon into 'splash' targets towed astern." (p. 83)

3) "When I landed on Dasher I found that the gun patches on the three outboard guns on the starboard side were still intact, ie three out of the 12 Brownings in the IIb that I was flying had not fired at all." (p. 89)

4) "As Greyhound (Sub Lt. A.J. Thomson) and I only had .303 guns in our particular Hurricanes..." (p. 90)

 

The first 150 JS-serialled Hurricanes were built in Canada, reportedly between April and June 1942, and delivered to the FAA in September-October.

 

Claudio

 

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