Takom's Tiran 4.

[MikeR]

Well, I have had a look through those Tom Cooper books and as I suspected it doesn't cover the non-aviation part of the deal beyond saying most of it was used to create new and re-equip existing Egyptan Army Divisions.

 

I've done yet more digging on the 'web and found a good Czech web site: www.valka.cz.

 

It covers production of the T-54 in the then Czechoslovakia in the following articles: T-54A, T-54AR and T-54M. It also has one on the T-55A. Rather handily, someone did a condensed article for World of Tanks using the same Valkha data: LINK.

 

If I've interpreted what I've read correctly then a '58-61 produced Czechoslovak T-54A was visually identical to a Soviet built T-54A whilst the T-54AR (built '61-66) could be recognised by the oval turret openings and those rather unique oval engine grill covers. No mention of the early long engine grill so it might be safe to say that those Tiran's with that feature were ex Soviet T-54-3's (using Miniart's nomenclature) whilst the ones with the split grill are either Soviet or Czech built T-54A's. However the Valkha site does state this:

Quote

A total of about 2,700 pieces of tank T-54 in all versions, including 2374 for CSLA (of which 125 were in command version of the T-54AK). Production ran until 1966.

Users (incomplete, applies to machines manufactured in Czechoslovakia) Czechoslovakia, India (274 pieces of tanks series T-54A delivered to the mid 70s), Hungary (first 10 pieces sent to the user in March 1963 in 1964 delivered another 66 pieces of T-54AR) Morocco (T-54AR + T 54ARK), Syria (160 units T-54AR + T 54ARK under contract 1969, 93 pieces of various modifications - brought about 1973)

No mention of Egypt, either pre or post Six Day War.

 

Mike.

[Kingsman]

Well Russia had stopped making T-54s in 1958, 3 years before the deal.  They might have been more than willing to swap out stock T-54s for newer T-55s.  Egypt certainly got concurrent new Russian T-55s, and it is odd that they didn't go for an all-T-55 fleet - or even an all-T-54 fleet.  From the Egyptian and Syrian perspective the T-55 improvements over the T-54 probably didn't give them anything they needed in that theatre and the T-54 was no less effective for them.  I imagine price was a factor.

 

My info was gathered from several sources, some of which contradicted and/or didn't add up so I had to do a bit of interpretation.  Your info, which I had not come across, suggests that some of the supposedly-used T-54s delivered to Syria after 1967 might have been new-build.  And that the "probably/ most likely" Czech new-build T-54s to Egypt were more likely Russian depot stock as you suggest.  Some of those might conceivably have been T-54-3s, which are quite hard to tell apart from the T-54A from many angles. 

 

However, the Czech list says it is "incomplete" and even without the missing Moroccan number (80?) the total of all the countries listed is 2977: a lot more than the "about 2700" stated at the start.  So either the Czechs supplied some of their own stock - feasible - or the numbers may not be completely trustworthy.  As far as I can tell, the Czechs did not build the T-54-3: Russia and Poland only.

 

I think I may belatedly perhaps have the radiator grille answer.  The T-54-3 was not capable of deep wading.  The T-54A introduced the wading capability. The raised one-piece grille of the T-54-3 does not appear to have been able to be sealed, whereas the 2-piece flush grille of the T-54A could be sealed: same for the rear grilles.  I imagine the single piece was also heavy to lift.  The Bovington tank seems to be definitely an A and not a -3, but still has the 1-piece grille.  In theory the A also had the D-10TG gun with the fume extractor, which the Bovington tank does not.  So could we be looking at an early or transitional T-54A build standard where the new gun (& FCS) and deep wading had not been implemented?  Which almost certainly means not Czech as they did not build the -3 and would therefore most likely have started with the full-spec A. 

 

Conceivably we could therefore be looking at the possibility of some Tirans based on T-54-3s if we believe that ex-stock Russian tanks were supplied to Egypt and that some might possibly have been that earlier build standard.

[MikeR]

From what I can gather the Soviets were quite happy to supply cast-off (and sub-standard) equipment to their client states, so that would be a possible reason for giving Egypt depot stock T-54-3's. If they couldn't be upgraded easily then palming them off would be a good alternative.

 

Mike.

[Kingsman]

I've had a flick through the Tirans In Lebanese Wars book by Samer Kassis, published by MiG.  There are several photos of different "Tiran 4 Late" vehicles with the one-piece radiator grille.  Where the main guns are visible they are 100mm with fume extractor (D-10TG).  As militia tanks I would assume that all are 100mm.  All have starfish wheels.  There are photos of the earlier configuration also with the one-piece grille, as per the MiniArt "early" kits. 

 

According to that book, many T-54 and 55 captured by the Christian Militias from opposing Syrian-backed militias were locally "Tiranised" with copies of the IDF bins etc.  This potentially confuses the militia Tiran situation no end.

 

There are photos of the "late" 100mm configuration in IDF markings (as per MiniArt kit) but these are said to be the SLA and LF crews in training in the Negev.  It is known that these vehicles were IDF-marked to disguise what was going on.  At least one of these still has spider wheels, an option in the non-interior MiniArt Late kit

 

I think that MiniArt have possibly been fooled by the majority of IDF Tiran 4s being based on the later two-grille models: there would almost certainly have been many more of these. Also, a Late Tiran 4 and any Tiran 5 (the latter only came in the "Late Sh" configuration as far as I can tell) are almost impossible to distinguish from the rear.  They may therefore have assumed that all Late configurations had the 2-piece grille. Whereas it was perfectly possible to have a Late conversion on an early tank.  Which was clearly done for at least some Militia tanks (but with 100mm gun), but whether any IDF TIran 4Sh Lates were built on early-model T-54s I do not know (all IDF Tiran 4 Lates were Sh 105mm).  Given a choice, the later T-54 models would seem preferable.

 

For IDF the 3 major Tiran 4 configuration options (stand fast base vehicle model configuration differences) are: 4 Early (100mm), 4Sh Early (105mm) and 4Sh Late (105mm).  For Lebanese Militias you're looking at 4 Late (100mm) from Israel and a mixed bag of T-54s and 55s with some localy converted to Tiran copies.

[MikeR]

Agree on all those points - I don't know if you have Dr Manasherob's Tiran 4/4sh book but I highly recommend it if you don't! All the photos in it depict Tiran 4 and 4sh(early)'s with the early radiator setup except the 4sh at the top of page 52 which may be a split grill version. The angle isn't particularly great but the photo below it depicts a 4sh with the long grill from more-or-less the same angle which acts as a good baseline for comparison. Both photo's were taken during Israel's 25th Anniversary Parade in early 1973. I also have a bit of a feeing that the good doctor may have chosen the images in the book with the two Miniart "Early" kits in mind.

 

I've also managed to obtain a copy of Dr Manasherob's The T-54/55 in Israeli-Arab Wars Volume 2 - Yom Kippur War - Part 1. It has a great selection of photos that give a nice overview of what the Syrian's had in 1973. It backs up the Czechoslovak export data which indicate they sold T-54AR's to Syria post 1967 and there are also images that show T-54-3/T-54 Model 1951's in Syrian service as well. Naturally most of the tanks in question are a little bit worse for wear.

 

It would have been nice if he'd started with Volume 1, which must be the one intended to cover 1967. I guess covering the less known/popular Golan Heights actions may have made more sense - if he'd done 1967 and then 1973 Sinai Front the Syrian Front book may not have sold as well.

 

Mike.

[Kingsman]

I'd love all - or indeed any - of his books.  But I don't have the depth of pocket to support that aspiration now that most are out of print and expensive when you can find them.  Bought too many kits and far too many after-market parts .....................................

 

1 copy of vol 2 on eBay at £60 from the US.  Nothing on Amazon.

[MikeR]

Yes, they are a bit dear but I'd say that the prices Aviation Bookcentre charge are a straight conversion plus a slight mark-up from what's on the Sabingamartin site. I've bought from them a few times now and found them to be good, although the site search engine's a bit temperamental. I'm currently on a self-imposed sabbatical on buying kits so books and accessories are getting bought instead!

 

Link to the Tiran 4/4sh book: HERE. They normally post everything First Class Royal Mail.

 

Mike.

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Im sorry to interject here. But id like to ask a quick question ? Syrian T-54 or T-55 are they still in service today ? And if so what's a good 1/35 kit for one of those. Im considering that or a Tiran for the group build in the fall ? 

 

Dennis

[MikeR]

I haven't been following the Syrian Civil War all that closely but from what I can gather the answer would be yes, at least for the T-55. A good candidate kit would be Takom's T-55AMV as it includes 6 different Syrian Government Army schemes. If you do a Google search for "Syrian T-55" you'll see plenty of interesting modelling possibilities ranging from the normal to almost outright Mad Max!

 

Plenty of images here: Syrian tanks at war thread on the Sturgeon's House forum. Naturally the images do show the conflict red in tooth and nail so not for the easily offended.

 

Mike.

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

4 hours ago, MikeR said:

A good candidate kit would be Takom's T-55AMV as it includes 6 different Syrian Government Army schemes.

Oh good thats the one is was focusing on looks like i will be buying it. 

[Kingsman]

Returning to T-54 build standards, a bit more digging reveals that there was a T-54 Model 1953 between the Model 1951 T-54-3 and Model 1955 T-54A. With the wading kit not introduced until the T-54A, the T-54 would most likely still have had the single grille from the T-45-3, as per the Bovington tank.  So we're seeing some Tiran 4s based on the Model 1953 T-54.

 

The wading fit on the T-54A had sheet metal covers with oval openings over the larger radiator grilles. About 75% of the grille was left uncovered. The holes had raised lips, presumably to attach covers. I haven't seen these on any Arab tanks and it is entirely plausible that they were not fitted to improve cooling. Wading was hardly a primary requirement for Syria or Egypt. 

[MikeR]

11 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

The wading fit on the T-54A had sheet metal covers with oval openings over the larger radiator grilles. About 75% of the grille was left uncovered. The holes had raised lips, presumably to attach covers. I haven't seen these on any Arab tanks and it is entirely plausible that they were not fitted to improve cooling. Wading was hardly a primary requirement for Syria or Egypt. 

There are photos of Syrian, Czech supplied, T-54AR's with the oval grill covers in Dr Manasherob's Arab T-54/55 book, though. In the case of those vehicles the Syrian's didn't remove them, either through seeing no reason to do so or with a possible eye to having to do a mass crossing of the Jordan River once they'd blasted their way past the Israeli defences on the Golan in 1973.

 

Mike.

[Kingsman]

This is the T-55A deck photo I found in the "Images of War" series T-54/55 book.  Note also the tube/bar surround for the rear fan grilles for their cover.  Identifiable-by-variant engine deck photos are hard to come by.  As I've scanned it from the book for the purposes of this discussion, please dear readers don't copy it further.  (cont'd below)

 

The only non-Tiran MiniArt T-54 kit I have is their T-54B.  That has the T-55 type straight cover mounting bars around the outside edges of the whole grille area.  Their A/B-based Tiran 4 Late kits with the twin radiator grilles don't have either type of cover mountings: potentially removed by IDF if present when captured. 

 

Interestingly/laughably, the useless Verlinden Warmachines Tiran book reckons that a T-54 fitted with the D-10TG gun with fume extractor is in fact a T-54C (which did not exist), and makes the fume extractor a T-54C recognition feature!!

[MikeR]

Good shot, although the Images of War book has that photo and the others in the sequence mislabled - they show a T-54AR rather than T-55A. One thing I don't like about that book are the caption errors! I'll agree about the Verlinden book, it could have been much, much better.

 

And to add to Das Abteilungs post, here's a part of the photo from Dr Manasherob's Arab T-54/T-55 book that best shows the oval cover from the most likely viewing angle:

Big red box added by me!

 

I didn't scan the whole image, for obvious reasons! Note the oil can and the square stowage box - these can just be seen on the right of the image that Das Abteilung posted previously and are indicative of the Czechoslovak produced T-54AR variant.

 

I'll also post this image, which although not Tiran related per se is the best I've come across of the triple fuel tank mounting arrangement seen on some Czechoslovak and Polish T-54's, again, this is only part of the image and is actually of the same tank as the image above:

Note the two smoke generator cans affixed below the fuel tank mounts and the stowed position of the early long, two piece, snorkel. This tank was a command variant and the open stowage tube for the long antenna can be seen just in front of the one for snorkel.

 

Mike.