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Takom's Tiran 4.


Bullbasket

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I've had this kit for a little over a year now, and was thinking of building it in the upcoming T-54/55 GB, but thee seem to be some anomalies with it. Sadly, I'v got into a silly slanging match with a well know AH on another site, so hopefully, I won't receive similar on here. I HAVE done some research, but can't find the answer that I'm looking for. The Takom kit for the Tiran 4 only comes with SLA markings, but I wanted to build it as an IDF machine. The first problem (and question) is with regards to the engine deck. The kit has a split fan intake as per T-55/Tiran5 but my understanding is that is should be a one piece intake for the T-54/Tiran 4. Is this correct? Did some versions of the T-54 have a split intake?  If not, can I just remove the centre section to correct it, or would the size of the opening be different?

I have the Sabingamartin book on the Tiran 4, and all of the profiles that are in there show early Tiran 4's without the turret basket and sporting the 100mm D10 gun. Therefore, my question is, can an early Tiran 4, as per the ones in the book, be built from the Takom kit? 

TIA.

 

John.

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You can build it as IDF if you swap out the gun for a 105mm M68 (not L7). RB, Barrel Depot and Aber all do correct barrels (in ascending order of cost).  The RB and BD ones are generic, but IIRC Aber do a version specifically for the Takom kit.

 

Yes, this is a subject about which you can easily get wrapped round the axle.  No plans to do that here!

 

Takom chose to kit, along with the original MiniArt "Tiran 4 late", a variant unique to the SLA.  IDF commissioned a batch for SLA with the full "late" external upgrade but retaining the D-10TG 100mm gun.  There were internal differences, but if you're not doing the interior that doesn't matter.  There was no desire to allow SLA to have the highly effective 105mm gun in case they fell into the wrong hands and it would have led to an obligation to contine ammunition supply.  100mm ammunition was widely available by fair means and foul. 

 

These tanks were observed in IDF markings and colours during SLA crew training in the Negev (as depicted by MiniArt) in order to disguise what was going on.  So there is a case for building OOB with IDF markings, but that was just a temporary thing.

 

One other thing. None of the SLA tanks had the 60mm mortar fitted next to the commander's cupola, whereas the IDF ones did.  I suspect that the SLA ones didn't have the external brackets near the hatches for the Uzi SMGs.  Check the antenna base types too, but I believe SLA had IDF-supplied comms.

 

I know you have the kit now, but I would recommend getting hold of the MiniArt Tiran 4 Sharir instead.  You can pick this up for under £40 now.  Then you can do the Takom one in that nice blue SLA cam.  I have a whole bunch of MiniArt Tirans and T-5x kits in the stash.  I have a spare Tiran 4 kit but it's the "early Sharir" version with the 105mm gun but without the full external upgrade.

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The Takom kit has two more quirks as far as I can tell:

 

1: The hatches and general configuration of the engine deck are actually for the Chinese Type 59/69 family - Takom took a shortcut there, despite having the correct engine deck in their T-54 kit!

 

2: Like their T-54 and Type 69-II kits , the wheels are wrong. Since the Tiran 4's were based on T-54's, all the road wheels should have small hubs as opposed to the leading pair having enlarged ones as per the kit. That's why I subsituted Miniart wheels on the Type 69-II I posted in the RFI section a few days ago.

 

Although I don't have the kit (I waited for the Miniart non-interior one), as far as I'm aware Takom did include the 105mm gun, which negates the need to buy an aftermarket one, as well as all the parts for the standard Russian style engine deck. If I had the kit I'd be tempted to try and make a Tiran 5 out of it by using that engine deck and modding the turret. The SLA had more Tiran 5's than 4's, the former certainly has better photo coverage anyway!

 

Which is a point - although the Miniart kit and Star Decals provide options for building a Tiran 4 with the full late mods but with the early spiderweb wheels on all wheel stations I have never yet managed to find a photo that shows a vehicle in that configuration?

 

Mike.

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25 minutes ago, Das Abteilung said:

I know you have the kit now, but I would recommend getting hold of the MiniArt Tiran 4 Sharir instead.

Thanks Peter. It's nice to get a reply and not have a load of sarcasm thrown at you (if you've been on ML, you'll know what I mean). I have the Miniart kit as well as the Takom version. I wanted to build the Miniart kit mostly OOTB, and after looking at the Sabingamartin book on the Tiran 4, I wanted to build the Takom version as one of the ones illustrated in that book on the back pages. So this is my question. Can I build one of those (assuming that you're familiar with the contents of that book), and just make some changes such as wheels, if necessary, gun, depending on which one that I chose to depict, and engine deck, assuming that they had the one piece intake?

Thanks for your help.

 

John.

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16 minutes ago, MikeR said:

as far as I'm aware Takom did include the 105mm gun

Yes, they did. It's on sprue N. With regards to the hatches, I might have some replacement ones left over from one of the resin AM people. I got a set to do the Tamiya Tiran 5 and there were at least three different options in there, so I'm hoping that one lot will be correct. I'm trying to get all of the correct bits and pieces together for the GB in October. As I've already said, I'd like to do the Takom kit as an early Tiran 4 if it's possible. The SLA version doesn't really appeal.

Thanks for the reply Mike.

 

John.

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4 hours ago, Bullbasket said:

It's nice to get a reply and not have a load of sarcasm thrown at you (if you've been on ML, you'll know what I mean).

I left ML in a huff after receiving a load of sarcasm and belittlement.  But not after launching a blast at the perpetrator.  I look in occasionally as a visitor as interesting threads do come up there, but I don't engage.

 

I don't have any of the S-M books, unfortunately.  I do have the Samer Kassis book on Tirans in Lebanon.  I also have a long build list of Tirans (hence the stash pile of kits).  MiniArt have said they will "probably" do a Tiran 5 but it isn't a high priority.  I'm planning to cross a MiniArt T4 with one of their T55s to make a T5 and a turretless SLA APC.

 

So I've been doing a bit of Tiran research, mostly on-line.  I've probably said this before, but the IDF Modelling site is well worth joining when it's next open for new members.  No, I'm not an expert on the subject..............

 

FYI, Bovington has an early Tiran 4 in the VCC - although it's listed as a T-55B (which it certainly isn't).  Paint chips suggest ex-Syrian T-54.  It's one I intend to model.

 

Life gets confusing with Tirans because of the multiple T-54/55 variants they were built on.  The IDF mods are more homogeneous.  An "early" T4 would typically (no axle here, move along......) have:

  • rear hull bin
  • rear right fender infantry comms box
  • rear left fender stowage box
  • front fender jerrycan racks
  • rubber fender extensions
  • 2 jerrycans on turret rear behind loader's hatch
  • Rectangular stowage box on turret rear behind commander's hatch
  • Uzi brackets next to hatches
  • Signal flag tubes by commander's hatch
  • single Browning M1919 pintle centrally next to dome vent
  • US antenna bases
  • Reversed loader's hatch

All of which says that you can use your Takom kit to make an early IDF Tiran 4.  Just leave off the unnecessary parts.

 

Now, as for wheels and engine grilles, that depends on the source and build standard of the base vehicle.  And here things get complicated and this is where a lot of the axle-wrapping happens.  T-54s should have a single large engine deck grille: twin grilles would be a T-55 (or Tiran 5) recognition feature.  However, Poland and Czechoslovakia continued building T-54s for 6 and 8 years respectively after Russia moved on to the T-55 and I don't know if they changed the configuration: someone will know.  Identifiable engine deck photos are hard to find.


Syria received exclusively Russian-built T-54s, new and used.  The used tanks were a mixture of A's, B's and reportedly some old T54-2s.  Egypt had a more mixed bag, new Czech and mixed used Russian, Polish and Czech.  IDF built Tiran 4's on any or all of these without distinction.  Because Syria got T-54's 4 years before Egypt, it is most likely that any very early Tiran 4 will be ex-Syrian - although with used tanks supplied later to both countries, never say never.

 

Early versions of T-54s could have "spider" wheels, and some early T4s had them.  The front wheel was often later replaced with a "starfish" (as on the Bovington example) as the front hubs wore out quickly - a flaw finally addressed on the T-55A with the enlarged front hub (later refitted to many older vehicles).  So you'd need a large-hub wheel.  Miniart sell their wheel sets separately. But see below about swapping the Takom kit for MiniArt.....  Tamiya goofed the wheels on their T-55A/Tiran 5 by overlooking the enlarged front hub.

 

With spider wheels, the earlier D-10T gun without fume extractor is possible but not universal.  The Bovington vehicle has this earlier gun.

 

Again, I must suggest leaving/selling the Takom kit and getting the exterior-only version of the MiniArt Tiran 4 Late kit (37041).  This has both types of wheel in the kit and a good selection of Lebanese markings.  It has all the late parts but these include all the early parts, so you just leave the relevant later ones off.

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13 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

I left ML in a huff after receiving a load of sarcasm and belittlement.  But not after launching a blast at the perpetrator.  I look in occasionally as a visitor as interesting threads do come up there, but I don't engage.

I don't blame you. We're probably talking about the same person. He's extremely knowledgeable, tank wise, but has all of the people skills of Vlad the Impaler. I know of several people who he has driven away from the site.

Thanks very much for the comprehensive reply. It's given me much to consider. I did manage to join the IDF Modelling site a couple of years ago and find it very useful, especially with people such as Michael Mass on there.

I'm back in the old country at the end of the week for a couple of weeks, so might see if I can pick up a non interior Miniart version of h T4.

Thanks again Peter for all of the info.

 

John.

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On eBay UK right now. £31.99.  It's a steal at that price.  Got anyone in the UK who can buy it and hold it for you?  They're usually in the £35-40 price range.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Miniart-37041-1-35th-scale-Tiran-4-Medium-Tank-Late-Type/264157088515?epid=9018939135&hash=item3d80fd4b03:g:c9YAAOSwVP5cGSyf

 

Creative Models sometimes have them in their weekly specials.

 

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14 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

On eBay UK right now. £31.99.  It's a steal at that price.  Got anyone in the UK who can buy it and hold it for you?  They're usually in the £35-40 price range.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Miniart-37041-1-35th-scale-Tiran-4-Medium-Tank-Late-Type/264157088515?epid=9018939135&hash=item3d80fd4b03:g:c9YAAOSwVP5cGSyf

 

Creative Models sometimes have them in their weekly specials.

 

Many thanks for that Peter. I've been in contact with the seller, as it turns out that he lives about two miles from where I'll be staying for the next two weeks.

 

John.

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2 hours ago, Bullbasket said:

Just picked up the kit today for the princely sum of £30........result!

 

John.

Good luck with your build. I saw that conversation you had on that other modeling site, since I have lots of free time with the collapse of my M47 build. Sad to say, just about every modeling site these days has one of 'those guys' in residence on it, that emerge to belittle and show their superiority over everyone else. Verlinden had a book in their 'Warmachines' series on the Tiran 4/5/6, but if I recall, the coverage of the Tiran 4 was weak in it, just a few photos. Anyway, have fun with your build. 

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10 hours ago, Asmodai said:

Good luck with your build. I saw that conversation you had on that other modeling site, since I have lots of free time with the collapse of my M47 build. Sad to say, just about every modeling site these days has one of 'those guys' in residence on it, that emerge to belittle and show their superiority over everyone else. Verlinden had a book in their 'Warmachines' series on the Tiran 4/5/6, but if I recall, the coverage of the Tiran 4 was weak in it, just a few photos. Anyway, have fun with your build. 

Yes, as you say, every site seems to have one. Unfortunately, he is also on Armorama and is just as big an AH on there as well. Sad thing is, he is extremely knowledgeable about most things armour and can be very helpful when he wants to be, but he spends more time being cranky though.

 

John.

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21 hours ago, Bullbasket said:

Just picked up the kit today for the princely sum of £30........result!

 

John.

That's a very good price for what you get in the box! I'll admit my jaw dropped when I first opened mine - even without the the parts for the interior that box is crammed full of plastic!:blink:

 

Mike

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On 6/24/2019 at 10:50 PM, Asmodai said:

Verlinden had a book in their 'Warmachines' series on the Tiran 4/5/6, but if I recall, the coverage of the Tiran 4 was weak in it, just a few photos.

I bought a copy 2nd hand.  Waste of paper......................  It's only photos of the Latrun exhibits, and you can find those online anyway.

 

On 6/25/2019 at 6:20 PM, MikeR said:

That's a very good price for what you get in the box! I'll admit my jaw dropped when I first opened mine - even without the the parts for the interior that box is crammed full of plastic!

Another MiniArt convert!  And no, I'm not on commission.  I just think they've come up on the rails from relative obscurity in a country not renowned for that industry and they do some fantastic stuff.

 

But they could have done all the Tiran 4 variants in a single kit with optional parts.  Unlike, say, their forthcoming M3 series.  The Grant is released, BTW.

 

As for the afore-mentioned little:poop:, I saw that thread on ML too.  People like that spoil it for everyone.  If someone asks a question on a forum then they probably don't know where else to turn or can't make sense of a zillion hits and a bunch of confusing photos on Google.  A lot of what comes up there needs careful interpretation.  Yes, sometimes the questions can seem a little dumb if you already know the answer.  But if you don't know it......  Everyone's knowledge maturity has to start somewhere, usually zilch.  Personally I will try to help anyone who needs it.  I know what I know: which is a long way short of everything.  And sometimes I'm wrong.  The more I learn, the more I realise I don't know.  Forums like this exist to share collective knowledge for the benefit of all. But sadly they all too often get taken over as soapboxes by know-it-alls who just want to prove how clever they are :angrysoapbox.sml::ignore:.  Long live the Britmodeller ethos, I say.:yes:

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On 6/26/2019 at 9:00 PM, Das Abteilung said:

Another MiniArt convert!  And no, I'm not on commission.  I just think they've come up on the rails from relative obscurity in a country not renowned for that industry and they do some fantastic stuff.

Well, I bought mine last year after it came out.;) It's one of the few kits where I've actually felt a bit intimidated just looking at it!

 

I'm actually intending on doing the boxart SLA option but, as I posted earlier, I haven't come across any photos that confirm a tank with that specific configuration actually existed. I've seen a model or two built up that way, but never an actual photo. Which is a mildly annoying....

 

Another thing which puzzles me is why Miniart changed the engine grill - their initial CAD showed the kit with the single long one but they released it with the T-55 style split type. As far as I can tell the Latrun tank that they've appeared to base the kit on has the single large grill and all the photos in Dr Manasherob's new Tiran book all show that early type as well. That could be due to the Egyptian's and Syrian's only having T-54's with the single large grill in service by the time the Six-Day War started, if that is the case then Takom's T-54B may not be correct for a 1967 period tank. What confuses the issue is the Miniart's T-54-3 kit has the long grill whilst their T-54A and T-54B's have the split grill. As the T-54 was Kharkov's baby I'd expect the Ukrainian's to be particular about accuracy.

 

Moving on to non-Soviet built T-54's, from my own references Czechoslovak and Polish built tanks generally had the oval openings for the co-axial gun and gunners sight, the latter also having the characteristic wading hatches typical of the T-55's later produced in Poland whilst Czechoslovak T-54's have unusual oval shaped grill openings which can be seen HERE at the 6:18 mark (that Czech VHU Youtube film archive is a veritable goldmine!).

 

All very confusing!:blink:

 

Mike.

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The Samer Kassis Tirans in Lebanon book is a really good source for SLA Tiran info.

 

I wonder if MiniArt confused their T4 and T5 engine decks, perhaps assuming that all had the split grille fitted?

 

However, to add some fuel to the flames, I snapped a shot today of the engine deck of the Bovington Tiran 4.  Remember that it is a very early one on a very early Russian-built T-54.  It has the one-piece grille.

CHrwH4k.jpg

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19 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

The Samer Kassis Tirans in Lebanon book is a really good source for SLA Tiran info.

 

I wonder if MiniArt confused their T4 and T5 engine decks, perhaps assuming that all had the split grille fitted?

 

Yep, I have that one in my "library" too! It's good for SLA Tiran 5's, but the only Tiran 4's it shows are tanks in service with one of the other militias, the Lebanese Forces. Those vehicles also have the single engine grill but are missing the turret stowage boxes.:hmmm:

 

In my travels around the 'net looking for more references I've found THIS site which has the following image:

spacer.png

 

A Tiran 4sh in early configuration, but with a split engine grill!

 

The initial Armorama discussion about the Miniart kit also had this image linked in as well:

spacer.png

 

Interesting combo: split engine grill, 105mm gun and spiderweb wheels!

 

I have a feeling I may end up buying Miniart's Tiran 4sh Early and indulging in some cross-kitting! Pity they've only done that one as an interior only kit so far.....<_<

 

Mike.

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I've seen the spider-wheel 4Sh before.  Intriguing: unexpected.  No reason to change the wheels unless worn.  Probably captured in little-used condition.  I'm pretty sure that tank would not have been built with that deck.  Similar vintage to the Bovington tank?  But what would be the point in changing it: did it offer an advantage?  I guess so as it was changed with the T-55, and apparently potentially during T-54.

 

The Legend, Inside The Armour and DEF T4 or T-54 conversions all included the one-piece grille.  MiniArt's T-54B has the split grille and the kit suggests that spider wheels could be found on Bs. Not sure I agree with that.  B's were only built for a couple of years right at the end of T-54 production and only built in Russia, so I can't see spider wheels still being fitted.

 

So we could be looking at T4s based on split-grille T-54Bs.  Or, bearing in mind that T-54s carried on being built in Poland and Czechoslovakia for years after the T-55 appeared and were built in parallel with T-55 in both countries for 5 - 7 years, we could be looking at Czech or Polish manufacture where T-55 parts were used for commonality.

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Could well be, but we know the IDF did end up having to do a lot of "cross kitting" in order to get a maximum number of working tanks plus reserves. I've also had another look at my copy Desert Eagle's Tiran Wrecks book and that also has photo's of a split grill Tiran 4sh (with starfish wheels) in it's introduction. That has the parallel sided coaxial and gunners site turret openings diagnostic of a Soviet built tank but that's not to say the Israelis never had to swap turrets around. Depends on if a Soviet built hull could accept a Czechoslovak or Polish turret and vice versa. :hmmm:I'm not sure what's in Dr Manasherob's own Tiran wrecks book as I don't have it. Yet!:wicked:

 

The only other book which I can think of covers the Tiran is Moustafa El-Assad's Blue Steel – T-55 Tanks in South Lebanon but that looks like it'll be a bit of a piker to get a hold of! I did come across a very old post by him over on the Missing-Lynx board where he stated that the initial Tiran 4's the SLA had were a dark blue colour and had a full set of spiderweb wheels, very similar to the boxart on Miniart's non interior Tiran 4 late. As an aside that kit has all the plastic parts for the early long grill but not the etch.

 

Another question is where the Egyptian and Syrian T-54's came from prior to 1967 as that would help determine the basic characteristics that could appear on a pre-1973 Tiran 4/4sh. Yet another would be the sequence of changes to the Czechoslovak and Polish built T-54's as production in those two countries progressed. That's proving to be a bit trickier to determine.:hmmm:

 

Mike.

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15 hours ago, MikeR said:

The only other book which I can think of covers the Tiran

Have you seen the Sabingamartin book that covers the Tiran 4 and Tiran 4 Shrir titled Tiran Tanks in IDF Service Vol.1. I like the "Vol.1" bit. It suggests more to come.

 

John.

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On 7/1/2019 at 6:43 PM, MikeR said:

Another question is where the Egyptian and Syrian T-54's came from prior to 1967 as that would help determine the basic characteristics that could appear on a pre-1973 Tiran 4/4sh.

The info I've managed to dig up on this subject is:

Syria:

150 new Russian T-54A ordered 1956, delivered 1957-58

Their next buy was after the '67 war.

 

Egypt:

350 new Czech T-54A ordered 1960, delivered 1961-66. 

These have to be Czech or Polish as Russia stopped making T-54s in 1958.  Polish production all went to Warsaw Pact nations AFAIK, whereas many Czech were exported.

Egypt also concurrently received 150 new Russian T-55As in 1964-66.

Their next orders were also after the '67 war to replace losses.

 

Both countries received used mixed-source T-54s in 1967-78 - allegedly including some T-54-2 to Syria (PLO had at least one from somewhere) - so the situation after '67 gets even more confusing.

 

Now, the Bovington machine was donated by Israel to the UK in 1973 for evaluation and went to the museum in 1976.  So I imagine it was a 1967 capture they passed-on after capturing many newer T-55s in 1973.  Which makes it one of that 1956 order.

 

Paint wear suggest Syrian 3-colour camouflage under the sand grey, parallel sight aperture says Russian.

cgnuyhW.jpg  n3Ya3bk.jpg

 

 

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15 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

Egypt:

350 new Czech T-54A ordered 1960, delivered 1961-66.

These have to be Czech or Polish as Russia stopped making T-54s in 1958.  Polish production all went to Warsaw Pact nations AFAIK, whereas many Czech were exported.

Nasser signed that big arms deal with the Soviets in 1961 so another possibility is that the tanks were taken from Soviet reserve stocks? I know that Czechoslovakia often acted as a Soviet intermediary but I don't think there's any evidence that they were involved in 1961. I'm pretty sure I have some reference to the deal in one of Tom Cooper's Arab MiG's books but I can't remember if it mentions anything beyond the aviation side.:hmmm:

 

Mike.

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