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Anyone familiar with RAAF Survey flight Hudsons?


Hamsterman

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Morning all (depending on your longitude),


Are any of you familiar with the Lockheed Hudson(s) used by the RAAF Survey flight from mid-1944 to mid-1946?  I found this one picture of Hudson A16-112, coded SU-P.  The plane carried a 6" trimetrogon setup in the nose. I'm trying to determine what is written on the fuselage under the pilots side window in the attached photo. It's obscured by the prop spinner. Any guesses or photos that might shed light on the mystery text?  Camo looks like overall foliage green.  I'm guessing SU-P codes in sky blue, not sure about the serial number, white or sky blue.  I was thinking of trying to add this to my ever growing list of Lockheed Hudsons/Venturas that I want to build. 

 

I've tried searching google and archives photos for these planes but I'm hitting a dead end.  The folks at Aussie Modeler didn't have much and suggested I try here so I thought I'd throw out the question to you fine folks.

Thanks for any suggestions.

Cheers!

Chris

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Image found here:

http://www.warbirdsonline.com.au/2017/10/09/lockheed-hudson-a16-112-the-tojo-busters/

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GI'd think the serial and code would be white, but that is only guess from some (hardly comprehensive by any means) research into late war RAAF. Colour could be overall Foilage Green but hard to tell, being that it appears to be solid overall including the wing undersides.

 

DennisTheBear

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14 hours ago, DennisTheBear said:

GI'd think the serial and code would be white, but that is only guess...

Late war RAAF is also not my area of expertise so I could be wrong, and am in fact, wrong.  I was basing my guess of sky blue on some RAAF markings documents I found in this thread over at the ww2aircraft.net forum.

 

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/raaf-markings-and-codes.9351/

 

I originally found the sky blue reference in the 1943 specifications document but there is another PDF in that thread, also shown below, from a 1944 specifications document that calls for medium sea grey codes (which I believe to include squadron codes and aircraft registration numbers) against foliage green camo schemes.  But, it's entirely possible this was superseded by another document that I haven't seen calling for white markings. 

 

Cheers!

 

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On ‎6‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 10:13 AM, Hamsterman said:

Morning all (depending on your longitude),
Are any of you familiar with the Lockheed Hudson(s) used by the RAAF Survey flight from mid-1944 to mid-1946?  I found this one picture of Hudson A16-112, coded SU-P.  The plane carried a 6" trimetrogon setup in the nose. I'm trying to determine what is written on the fuselage under the pilots side window in the attached photo. It's obscured by the prop spinner. Any guesses or photos that might shed light on the mystery text?  Camo looks like overall foliage green.  I'm guessing SU-P codes in sky blue, not sure about the serial number, white or sky blue.  I was thinking of trying to add this to my ever growing list of Lockheed Hudsons/Venturas that I want to build. 

I've tried searching google and archives photos for these planes but I'm hitting a dead end.  The folks at Aussie Modeler didn't have much and suggested I try here so I thought I'd throw out the question to you fine folks.

Thanks for any suggestions.

Cheers!

Chris

Chris,

You may want to have a look at the 'Lockheed File' website:

http://www.adastron.com/lockheed/lock1.htm

Feel free to contact the webmaster, Ron Cuskelly, as he is extremely knowledgeable on the subject.

And the 2-book series 'The RAAF Hudson Story: A History of Hudson's in Australia' by David Vincent may prove very useful.

Tim

 

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G'day Chris,

 

First up, let me endorse Tim's recommendation re David Vincent's book and Ron's website. Both well worth checking out, although it may be difficult to get a copy of the former in Minnesota - vol 1 has info on the Survey Flight, but little of modelling use. 

 

The camouflage order relative to A16-112, is A.G.I. Part 3, Section (C), Instruction No.1, issued on 26 May 1944. A16-112's overhaul was completed at this time. The order calls for Hudson aircraft, (excluding ambulances),  to be finished in overall Foliage Green. Identification markings were required to be Medium Sea Grey. This was intended to cover both the store reference number and code letters, but some units interpreted it to mean only identity number and continued with the practice of painting code letters in Sky Blue. Based on the photo, I would go for MSG for the store reference number and Sky Blue for the codes.

 

b1b3e3ee-93ea-493e-bd29-c653d7732e61.jpg

 

A16-112 was taken on charge by the Survey Flight in mid 1944 and served with them until May 1946. At some time it was stripped of camouflage. The name on the nose, when it was in Foliage Green, shows the letters 'Marg...'. Dave Vincent thinks it could be 'Marge'. It could equally be 'Margery', 'Margaret' or other possible names. I have seen no evidence that confirms what the name is, or the reason for it being on the A/C.

 

98076f1a-db94-42f4-96e7-2da20131750f.jpg

The letters, 'MARG' can just be discerned in this enlargement. Note also the fairing for the vertical camera under the nose

and the open panel for the oblique camera.

 

The Survey Flight operated seven Hudsons at varying times. 

A16-111. Dec 43 to Jan 44

A16-130. Jan 44 to April 46. SU-H

A16-112. June 44 to May 46. SU-P

A16-47.   August 44 to July 45. SU-R

A16-207. August 45 to Sep 46

A16-219. August 45 to Oct 46

A16-226. August 45 to May 46

 

The Hudsons were converted for the mapping role by mounting three cameras in the nose in a trimetrogon set up. The vertical was in the extreme nose and shot through a fairing mounted under the nose, immediately behind the transparent nose cone, and in front of the bomb aimer's window, which was sometimes, partially, or completely, paneled or painted over. The oblique cameras shot through the lower, rearmost, window apertures. The perspex was removed from those. I understand that these positions were open when the cameras were in use, although one photo suggests that there may have been optical glass in place.

 

69e4becb-79d5-44da-876d-944f382420f1.jpg

A16-130 shows one form of the fairing for the vertical camera. Note that the bomb aimer's perspex panels have been replaced or painted over. The oblique camera ports appear to have been fitted with flat glass panels. This aircraft was received in early 1944 and carries a three colour camouflage.

 

07c38d54-587c-47c9-8c1a-8f25a58ef1c7.jpg

A16-47 has a slightly different shape to the fairing for the vertical camera. There

appears to be a removable opaque cover in the base of the fairing. Part of the

bomb aimer's window still remains. The oblique camera ports are also open.

 

 

Hope some of the above is of use. I do have a few photos of varying quality, mainly of the A/C stripped of camouflage. PM me with your email if you think they may be of use.

 

Cheers,

Peter Malone

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On 6/11/2019 at 1:43 PM, DennisTheBear said:

GI'd think the serial and code would be white, but that is only guess from some (hardly comprehensive by any means) research into late war RAAF. Colour could be overall Foilage Green but hard to tell, being that it appears to be solid overall including the wing undersides.

 

DennisTheBear

See, my knowledge is nowhere near comprehensive. I was right about that part.:banghead:

 

DennisTheBear

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7 hours ago, Magpie22 said:

G'day Chris,

 

First up, let me endorse Tim's recommendation re David Vincent's book and Ron's website. Both well worth checking out, although it may be difficult to get a copy of the former in Minnesota - vol 1 has info on the Survey Flight, but little of modelling use. 

 

The camouflage order relative to A16-112, is A.G.I. Part 3, Section (C), Instruction No.1, issued on 26 May 1944. A16-112's overhaul was completed at this time. The order calls for Hudson aircraft, (excluding ambulances),  to be finished in overall Foliage Green. Identification markings were required to be Medium Sea Grey. This was intended to cover both the store reference number and code letters, but some units interpreted it to mean only identity number and continued with the practice of painting code letters in Sky Blue. Based on the photo, I would go for MSG for the store reference number and Sky Blue for the codes.

 

b1b3e3ee-93ea-493e-bd29-c653d7732e61.jpg

 

A16-112 was taken on charge by the Survey Flight in mid 1944 and served with them until May 1946. At some time it was stripped of camouflage. The name on the nose, when it was in Foliage Green, shows the letters 'Marg...'. Dave Vincent thinks it could be 'Marge'. It could equally be 'Margery', 'Margaret' or other possible names. I have seen no evidence that confirms what the name is, or the reason for it being on the A/C.

 

98076f1a-db94-42f4-96e7-2da20131750f.jpg

The letters, 'MARG' can just be discerned in this enlargement. Note also the fairing for the vertical camera under the nose

and the open panel for the oblique camera.

 

The Survey Flight operated seven Hudsons at varying times. 

A16-111. Dec 43 to Jan 44

A16-130. Jan 44 to April 46. SU-H

A16-112. June 44 to May 46. SU-P

A16-47.   August 44 to July 45. SU-R

A16-207. August 45 to Sep 46

A16-219. August 45 to Oct 46

A16-226. August 45 to May 46

 

The Hudsons were converted for the mapping role by mounting three cameras in the nose in a trimetrogon set up. The vertical was in the extreme nose and shot through a fairing mounted under the nose, immediately behind the transparent nose cone, and in front of the bomb aimer's window, which was sometimes, partially, or completely, paneled or painted over. The oblique cameras shot through the lower, rearmost, window apertures. The perspex was removed from those. I understand that these positions were open when the cameras were in use, although one photo suggests that there may have been optical glass in place.

 

69e4becb-79d5-44da-876d-944f382420f1.jpg

A16-130 shows one form of the fairing for the vertical camera. Note that the bomb aimer's perspex panels have been replaced or painted over. The oblique camera ports appear to have been fitted with flat glass panels. This aircraft was received in early 1944 and carries a three colour camouflage.

 

07c38d54-587c-47c9-8c1a-8f25a58ef1c7.jpg

A16-47 has a slightly different shape to the fairing for the vertical camera. There

appears to be a removable opaque cover in the base of the fairing. Part of the

bomb aimer's window still remains. The oblique camera ports are also open.

 

 

Hope some of the above is of use. I do have a few photos of varying quality, mainly of the A/C stripped of camouflage. PM me with your email if you think they may be of use.

 

Cheers,

Peter Malone

Hi Peter,

This is absolutely fantastic and made my day!  Thank you so very much.  You are not the first person to recommend David Vincent's book so I'll be looking for that.  I generally try and see if my local library can connect me with a book first and I just haven't had the time to pop in and ask them.  I also followed Tim's advice and sent an email to Ron but haven't heard anything yet.  

 

I am a sucker for planes with cameras.  I equally love groups that are less well covered (which can be a problem when it comes to information) so for me, that photo of A16-112 was gold.  I was guessing the first two letters were "MA" but past that I wasn't sure so I was glad to read that both you and David Vincent were able to make out the "RG" that follows.  I'll likely make an educated guess at the name when I get around to building that plane.  Do you have an educated guess as to the color of the name?  To my eyes it looks darker than both the store reference number and code letters as well as the white in the roundel and fin flash so I was going to guess yellow.

 

That photo of A16-130 in the three color camo is also very attractive.  I have it listed as SU-H but black codes on a natural metal fuselage.  I'm assuming your photo was before the paint was striped so presumably SU-H in MSG or Sky Blue?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but SU was the prefix code for all survey flight planes. 

 

I'll shoot you a PM and we can talk about those other planes.  

 

Cheers!

Chris

 

7 hours ago, DennisTheBear said:

See, my knowledge is nowhere near comprehensive. I was right about that part.:banghead:

 

DennisTheBear

LOL!  Yours and mine both.

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1 hour ago, oz rb fan said:

and the subject plane is a survivor......i hope we can get decals of it at some stage

That would be cool!  Then I wouldn't have to come up with my own.  I'm still in the preliminary stages of this one and haven't looked but do you know if you can get a sheet that just has generic RAAF code letters and serial numbers in sky blue and MSG?

Edited by Hamsterman
I can't spell!
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On 6/15/2019 at 1:28 AM, Hamsterman said:

That would be cool!  Then I wouldn't have to come up with my own.  I'm still in the preliminary stages of this one and haven't looked but do you know if you can get a sheet that just has generic RAAF code letters and serial numbers in sky blue and MSG?

i'll do some cheking around for you

 

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On 6/14/2019 at 7:24 PM, Peter Roberts said:

Scale?

 

PR

I’m more of a 1/48 guy but don’t have the Classic Airframes kit so I imagine it will have to be 1/72.  I’m surprised and disappointed that Revell didn’t modify their PV-1 kit to offer a Hudson given the number of countries that used the Hudson and all the various camo schemes. 

1 hour ago, oz rb fan said:

i'll do some cheking around for you

 

Wow, thanks!  That’s very generous of you to offer.

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True, “modify” was a poor choice of words as there are some significant changes.  The sentiment was more surprise and disappointment that they didn’t do more from the Hudson/Ventura family since the last 1/48 Hudson offering was the Classic airframes kit.  

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Re: decals, Tasman do a variety of RAAF roundels in both 1/72 and 1/48 scale, and have done serials as well. I thought they also did RAAF codes but I can't find these. May be worth checking out Red Roo as well. Hopefully Google is your friend.

 

Alternatively a plea for decals on AMI or Brit Modeller may bring results. (?)

 

PR

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