FAA Shadow Camouflage Scheme

[Courageous]

Hi All,

As the progress on my SeaFox builds creep forwards, my attention moves towards the paint scheme of the second Seafox that will be painted in the camo scheme of 702 Sqn, FAA, HMS Asturius. Looking at the boxart and painting instructions, on the face of it, it looks like it is dark slate grey/ extra dark sea grey over sky grey but I notice that the lower wings are painted with light slate grey and dark sea grey!

Now I know what the concept is but I was wondering if it was actually in use in the FAA? I've looked at Seafox builds of the camo version and limited pics on the 'net' but it's unclear if the shadow scheme is present or not?

 

Any takers that can clarify the situation?

 

Stuart

Edited June 7, 2019 by Courageous

[Super Aereo]

The shadow shading colours for the upper surface of the lower wing were supposed to be Dark Sea Grey and Light Slate Grey.

[Courageous]

24 minutes ago, Super Aereo said:

Dark Sea Grey and Light Slate Grey.

Cheers, corrected post. Can you answer of my queries?

 

Stuart

[ClaudioN]

From memory, the camouflaged Matchbox Seafox has "type C" fuselage roundels, that should place it around 1942. I suspect by that time shadow shading might have been dispensed with?

 

Claudio

 

[Super Aereo]

It could be, but shadow shading was still mentioned in Air Publication 2656A of October 1944.

Edited June 7, 2019 by Super Aereo

[Grey Beema]

I believe it was used.  I have the Lloyd book in the Cave and would have to refer to it to confirm.  I can check it in the morning if no one else confirms before then..

[Courageous]

20 minutes ago, ClaudioN said:

From memory,

Your memory is working fine Claudio and I was coming to the same conclusion until...

8 minutes ago, Super Aereo said:

It could be, but shadow shading was still mention in Air Publication 2656A of October 1944.

...which pushes the answer in favour of the shadow scheme.

3 minutes ago, Grey Beema said:

I have the Lloyd book in the Cave and would have to refer to it to confirm.

That would be excellent if you could do that.

 

IIRC, the shadow scheme on Gladiators extended to the fuselage with a demarcation down the length of the aircraft, the instructions and boxart don't show this for the Seafox.

 

Stuart

[ClaudioN]

The Lloyd book covers the period 1937 to 1941, but Ian may know more.

11 minutes ago, Grey Beema said:

I believe it was used.  I have the Lloyd book in the Cave and would have to refer to it to confirm.  I can check it in the morning if no one else confirms before then..

If shadow shading is still mentioned in a 1944 publication, there's more than a chance that it was used. I'd like to know more.

 

Claudio

[Super Aereo]

8 minutes ago, Courageous said:

 

 

IIRC, the shadow scheme on Gladiators extended to the fuselage with a demarcation down the length of the aircraft, the instructions and boxart don't show this for the Seafox.

 

Stuart

Not on Sea Gladiators, where the demarcation line between upper and lower colours was at mid-fuselage.

[ClaudioN]

1 minute ago, Super Aereo said:

Not on Sea Gladiators, where the demarcation line between upper and lower colours was at mid-fuselage.

Aren't we talking about different time periods? Sea Gladiators had a mid-fuselage demearcation with either Sky Grey (early) or Sky (late) under surfaces until late-1940/early-1941.

A Seafox in 1942 would have low-demarcation Temperate Sea Scheme.

Maybe a hint of shadow shading is shown here:

A Seafox Seaplane going down the Slipway. © IWM (Art.IWM ART LD 2794) IWM Non Commercial License

 

Harder to tell here (in October 1941)

ON BOARD HMS CANTON IN THE ATLANTIC. 21 OCTOBER 1941, ON BOARD THE ARMED MERCHANT CRUISER CANTON.. © IWM (A 6653) IWM Non Commercial License

 

HTH

Claudio

[Grey Beema]

I have had a look at Fleet Air Arm Camouflage and Markings , Atlantic & Mediterranean Theatres 1937-1941.

 

Before the war the Seafox would have been painted Aluminium Dope and Cerrux Grey and there are photos in the book of Seafoxes in this scheme.  In 11/05/39 the Admiralty introduced S.1.E extra Dark Sea Grey, Dark Slate Grey, Sky Grey with counter shading for biplanes on the lower mainplane and central section of the floats. Dark Sea Grey and Light Slate Grey.  Sky Grey was to be used on all verticals (High demarcation).  There is no picture of a Seafox in the book in this scheme.  26/09/40 Sky was introduced for undersurfaces and TSS for fighters.

 

 

There is a picture however of Seafox K8591 that served on board HMS Ajax in the U.K. In Feb 1940 which is wearing camouflage  (certainlyon the cowling) but the photos are from below and do not show the upper surfaces of the Mainplane.  The pictures come from a IWM Film 3496 "Ajax comes home" which might be worth a look.

 

I do not know the date when shadow shading was officially dropped but I think it was before TSSwas officially introduced.

 

Of course if you are modelling a Seafox in 1944 the above information is of no use to you.  By '44 the aircraft should be in TSS EDSG/DSG/Sky.  It would be low demarcation and shadow shading would have been abandoned.

 

Apologies for getting your hopes up.  If I come across anything more I will post it up.

[Courageous]

43 minutes ago, Grey Beema said:

Apologies for getting your hopes up.

No apologies needed, thanks for looking. With the shadow scheme being used until the TSS arrived in 1944, I should also ask myself if the Seafox was still operational in 1944, if not, the only choice wI'll be the sHadlow scheme?

 

Stuart

[Grey Beema]

From Sturtivant

 

K8592 Asturias 30/1142 to 01/43.

K8593 Asturias 29/10/42 to 30/11/42

k8594 Asturias 04/11/42

k8611 Asturias 06/42

K8615 Asturias 19/09/42 to 26/10/42

L4520 Asturias 27/05/42 to 21/06/42

L4526 Asturias 27/05/42 to 01/43

L4533 Asturias 23/06/42 to 14/09/42

 

 

So i suspect not operating in 1944..

 

For those operating in '42 I would go for TSS no counter shading.

 

Edited June 8, 2019 by Grey Beema

[Seahawk]

Afraid I take the minority view in believing that shadow shading on the upper surfaces of the lower wings of biplanes would still have been used up to and beyond the out-of-service date for the Sea Fox.  @Super Aereopoints out documentary support for this.  But we can all agree that shadow shading of fuselages probably disappeared much earlier.   And even then there are of course those colour pics of RAF Walruses in Italy near the end of the war which seem to show shadow shading along the fuselage sides.....  

[Courageous]

With documentation supporting the shadow scheme into 1944, the subject still being operational in 1943, I like @Seahawk, will be going with the shadow scheme.

Thanks for you input guys.

 

Stuart

[ClaudioN]

23 hours ago, Grey Beema said:

From Sturtivant

 

K8592 Asturias 30/1142 to 01/43.

K8593 Asturias 29/10/42 to 30/11/42

k8594 Asturias 04/11/42

k8611 Asturias 06/42

K8615 Asturias 19/09/42 to 26/10/42

L4520 Asturias 27/05/42 to 21/06/42

L4526 Asturias 27/05/42 to 01/43

L4533 Asturias 23/06/42 to 14/09/42

 

 

So i suspect not operating in 1944..

 

For those operating in '42 I would go for TSS no counter shading.

 

Details about Asturias here. The ship was refitted in late 1941 to enable her to operate seaplanes and operated on the South Atlantic Station until May 1943. Sturtivant book on pre-war FAA only lists L4526 among those transferred to FAA in storage. The wartime Sturtivant serials book takes up the story of L4526 in May 1942, seemingly it was issued to Asturias among the initial equipment.

 

Asturias was torpedoed by an Italian submarine on 25 July 1943 (ironically, the day the Fascist regime fell), towed into Freetown and laid up as a total constructive loss.