F-105G tail

[Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy]

Trying to figure out a tail correction for a 1/72 F-105G.  I have the D&S book on the 105 and was surprised to find the Trumpeter and Monogram 1/72 tails fit the line drawings almost exactly, making them all undersized, supposedly.  

Is there a better reference on the tail difference? Tough to really discern the real difference from airframe photos, and the D&S book only points out an increase of 15% tail area, not the most helpful of references to a project such as ours....

Edited June 6, 2019 by Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy

[72modeler]

Andrew,

 

If I'm not  mistaken, the difference in the fin/rudder between the F-104A/C and the F-104G  was  a much broader chord rudder- I think the fin itself was the same height for all three versions. If you look at some scale drawings, you can see where the extra chord was fitted. I have attached a link to a site that has a photo of an F-104A and and F-104G flying together that shows the difference in the two. Scroll 'way down to the photo. Hope this helps until @RidgeRunner can give you more exact information. The second link should also be helpful, but probably has more than you ever would want to know to build your model- unless you are a real Starfighter fan!

Mike

 

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2015/2/2/1360449/-The-not-quite-right-stuff-F-104-Starfighter

 

http://www.916-starfighter.de/F-104_system_Stoelinga.pdf

Edited June 4, 2019 by 72modeler
added link

[Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy]

Just now, 72modeler said:

Andrew,

 

If I'm not  mistaken, the difference in the fin/rudder between the F-104A/C and the F-104G  was  a much broader chord rudder- I think the fin itself was the same height for all three versions. If you look at some scale drawings, you can see where the extra chord was fitted. I have attached a link to a site that has a photo of an F-104A and and F-104G flying together that shows the difference in the two. Scroll 'way down to the photo. Hope this helps until @RidgeRunner can give you more exact information.

Mike

 

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2015/2/2/1360449/-The-not-quite-right-stuff-F-104-Starfighter

Thanks Mike! ....although it's for a -105G Thunderchief.....

[RidgeRunner]

3 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

Andrew,

 

If I'm not  mistaken, the difference in the fin/rudder between the F-104A/C and the F-104G  was  a much broader chord rudder- I think the fin itself was the same height for all three versions. If you look at some scale drawings, you can see where the extra chord was fitted. I have attached a link to a site that has a photo of an F-104A and and F-104G flying together that shows the difference in the two. Scroll 'way down to the photo. Hope this helps until @RidgeRunner can give you more exact information.

Mike

 

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2015/2/2/1360449/-The-not-quite-right-stuff-F-104-Starfighter

Correct, Mike? However, for the Thud I need to check. There is a difference. I just need to pull the right references. D&S is often inaccurate!

 

M

[TheRealMrEd]

Andrew,

 

Can't help with the Trumpeter offering, but as can be seen in the picture below, the primary difference between the Revell (Monogram) kit #4263 of the F-105D is that they extended the F/G height and added the area at the front of the fin, from the intake at the base, to the tip:

 

 

Also  F.A.O.W. #4, has scale drawings of the "D" model only, and the Revell kit above mentioned also fit those drawing precisely:

 

 

The area needing to be added is more or less shown by the ruler placement in the photo.  Also Yukio Suzuki, who did these drawing doesn't miss much, so my guess is that the Revellogram "D" model is right on the money!  The only reason the nose part doesn't line up is that the drawings break at the page center.

 

Comparing the same "D" kit to the Monogram F-105G kit #5431, shows the following difference between the D and F/G models:

 

 

Measurement with a 1/72 scale ruler shows the addition as about 12 scale inches at the top rear of the tip, 9 scale inches at the high point of the D tip -- notice that there is a more rounded tip shape on the D model.  There is also a pretty constant scale 6 inches all along the front of the vertical stabilizer, from the intake to the top.

 

Don't be mislead by the slight apparent poor fit on the rear side; I took the photo from right of center so the lighting would highlight the difference.  The measurements were taken from being spot on aligned.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Ed

[72modeler]

What the heck was I thinking? I mis-read the original post! my mistake! (Andrew- are you sure you wouldn't rather do an F-104?) Too many years exposed to Floquil and Diosol, I reckon. I am sooo embarrassed! 🤪

Mike

[Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy]

Ed, those are EXTREMELY helpful, thanks so much!

 

Mike, relax, I've got more than my share of doozies; we all get reminders that we're only human.

I often say that if I ever go senile, nobody's going to notice.... 

[72modeler]

1 hour ago, Jordi said:

There's a good lesson:  just because drawings look nice doesn't mean they are accurate!

Ain't it the truth? Can't tell you how many incredible-looking and highly detailed scale drawings turn out to be inaccurate when measured against published length and span. D&S books are excellent references  for model builders, but many volumes have inaccurate scale drawings, sad to say. You might try looking at one of the Osprey Publishing volumes on the F-105, as the  1/72 drawings in their Aircraft of the Aces, Combat Aircraft, and others are usually very accurate.

Mike

[tempestfan]

6 hours ago, 72modeler said:

Ain't it the truth? Can't tell you how many incredible-looking and highly detailed scale drawings turn out to be inaccurate when measured against published length and span. D&S books are excellent references  for model builders, but many volumes have inaccurate scale drawings, sad to say. You might try looking at one of the Osprey Publishing volumes on the F-105, as the  1/72 drawings in their Aircraft of the Aces, Combat Aircraft, and others are usually very accurate.

Mike

@Tailspin Turtle is right now doing an evaluation of some A-4 drawings and has come to the same verdict re one specific set, but has found a Japanese set pretty good. I‘d subscribe to your verdict re D&S, but am not that sure re the Ospreys - I‘d say it depends on who is the draughtsman.

Published dimensions are all very well, and span usually is not much of a problem, but it gets tricky with length because especially on jets there are several possibilities to measure. Some 25 years ago I tried looking into the Sepecat Jaguar a bit more in depth, and IIRC each source consulted quoted a different figure...

 

[rossm]

3 hours ago, tempestfan said:

but it gets tricky with length

e.g. Italeri B-58 !

[tempestfan]

33 minutes ago, rossm said:

e.g. Italeri B-58 !

Oh yes !

[72modeler]

3 hours ago, tempestfan said:

Oh yes !

Especially on jets- from the tip of the nose or the probe? To the rear edge of the top of the fin, the tailcone, or where the rear edge of the horizontal stabilizer is? Decisions, decisions! I remember the Italeri B-58 debacle very well! I agree with you on the drawings in the Osprey books- some are bang-on and some, not so good. It gets very frustrating when you haul out several sets of "scale" drawings and none of them agree to the published/accepted dimensions! (It was so much easier back in the day when I just slapped 'em together and brush-painted them- no filler anywhere.!) You know, I think @tonyot is on to something!) 😜

Mike

 

[Starfighter]

Not sure of the actual measurements, but the two seat F-105 F and G  tail was taller than the single seat B and D aircraft. HTH 

[Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy]

Okay, now there's someone on another forum saying the 1/72 Trumpy F-105G tail is actually correct, that it's their D tail that's too tall, the total reverse of what I've always been told!

 

...um....which is it....?

Edited June 6, 2019 by Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy

[Tomppa B]

The Trumpeter F-105G had the same problem in all scales: In the link below are pictures of the corrected fin by Cutting Edge, but in 1/32:

http://www.ipmsusa.org/reviews/Archive/Details/Aircraft/Cutting_Edge_F105F-G_Fin_2/Cutting_Edge_F105F-G_Fin_2.htm

[CT7567]

On 6/6/2019 at 10:58 AM, Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy said:

Okay, now there's someone on another forum saying the 1/72 Trumpy F-105G tail is actually correct, that it's their D tail that's too tall, the total reverse of what I've always been told!

 

...um....which is it....?

I don't have access to the kits right now to compare the plastic, but based on the profile shots below the G should have both the extended leading edge ("fill" above the intake) and taller vertical section at the top - as per Ed's comparisons above.

[canberra kid]

On 6/5/2019 at 12:34 AM, 72modeler said:

Ain't it the truth? Can't tell you how many incredible-looking and highly detailed scale drawings turn out to be inaccurate when measured against published length and span. D&S books are excellent references  for model builders, but many volumes have inaccurate scale drawings, sad to say. You might try looking at one of the Osprey Publishing volumes on the F-105, as the  1/72 drawings in their Aircraft of the Aces, Combat Aircraft, and others are usually very accurate.

Mike

Oh yes, I can vouch for that!

John

[71chally]

It's funny how right those old Monogram/Revell kits often are.

[Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy]

Okay, how's this?  Not exact, but a close correction of the Trumpy 1/72 kit:

 

[CT7567]

2 hours ago, Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy said:

Okay, how's this?  Not exact, but a close correction of the Trumpy 1/72 kit:

 

Looks pretty good to me. Is that a splice of the Monogram G onto Trumpeter's undersized tail, or did you find a spare wing or tail someplace else to do the job?

[72modeler]

1 hour ago, CT7567 said:

Looks pretty good to me. Is that a splice of the Monogram G onto Trumpeter's undersized tail, or did you find a spare wing or tail someplace else to do the job?

Don't forget that the rudder has a constant chord, not a trapezoidal one, like the one in the kit. Look at the posted photos to see what I mean- an easy fix!

Mike

[Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy]

14 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

Don't forget that the rudder has a constant chord, not a trapezoidal one, like the one in the kit. Look at the posted photos to see what I mean- an easy fix!

Mike

Yep, I see it now, thanks for that! Not hard at all, especially since I already worked out the trailing edge to a point instead of the huge flat it was before....

2 hours ago, CT7567 said:

Looks pretty good to me. Is that a splice of the Monogram G onto Trumpeter's undersized tail, or did you find a spare wing or tail someplace else to do the job?

Yep, got it in one! Mono G tail front.